The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

“In another thread — i wondered aloud which was the better (or worse) type of OTD (no longer orthodox). Was it what we seem to see more in the yeshiva community — with drugs, alcohol — but less than what we see in the MO community where kids just becoming non-religious professionals?”
That’s actually a very interesting question, although I will say I don’t know what it has to do with this thread. You could make the point that the Yeshivish OTD people you’re describing are worse in that they actively make a chillul hashem to continuing to look frum while being genuinely bad people (I’m assuming you’re referring to the “one their way off the derech” folks). In addition, it seems like when Charedim do go fully off the derech, they end up being much more anti-religion than their MO counterparts.

I’m not ready to say that these trends aren’t just a function of location, however. If you go OTD in Brooklyn, you’re assimilating into the urban culture around you. If you go OTD in Westchester, you’re assimilating into that culture.

“But nonetheless, this canard that there is a majority out to destroy Torah in israel is just false. ”
I mean, this is obviously the point where we flat out disagree. I would say, if you want to see it from our standpoint, consider this: by your admission the majority of Israelis are still secular, the make-up of the knesset is overwhelmingly secular and gives more representation to Muslim and anti-religious parties than it does to Jewish parties. With this being said, how is it false that the majority is secularist? The numbers just don’t seem the agree with you. You can point to the instances when the state laxed up and became more religion-friendly, but we will just counter that that never would have happened without unwavering, Charedi resistance. Government-wise, Israel has always exercised its lack of freedom of speech at the expense of Jews to protect Muslims (eg. the “hate wedding”). Muslims can say much worse about the Jews and serve in the knesset and be “heroic activists.” Most extreme Zionists like Kahanists agree with these issues, but I will go farther to say that that is not a “Jewish State.” If anything, that’s an Islamic state that happens to be run by secular Jews. Why would we have a chiyuv to support and fight for that?

@MrSarahLevin I understand you think we should all take responsibility to serve in the army. According to the logic I would also think we should take responsibility to learn. All men technically have a responsibility to both, and if half the population is shirking their responsibility to study and learn, than someone has to pick up the slack.

About Chareidim in general and the army, and “not being allowed to go out and work”, yes there is an ideal where we all would not have to do these things, but life isn’t like that anymore. Some boys who aren’t thriving in yeshiva are suitable for a hesder program, and full time learning isn’t cut out for everyone, and working in an area you love isn’t assur and there’s many different ways to find a proper place to study a trade. The Torah teaches us to do chinuch to tailor it to the needs of the child.

It isn’t as black and white and some of you make our society out to be.

MrSarah, I can’t find the post.

I forget the source. Is it the gemara?or the rambam…not sure
…anyways, it says “what is considered an apikores? Someone who says that talmidei chachamim only learn for themselves. ”

Idiots. Am haaratzim.
Apikorsim….

Trying, who says that the military does not need them? How long did you serve in the IDF ands what rank did you attain?

Takes, where do I say that? I did quote the Gra and Rav Teichtal as saying that the sin of the spies can even infect those who hold on to the Torah (the Gra also says that even a talmid chacham could be from the erev rav) in other threads but I did not mention anyone specific. You are motzi shem ra on me.

Joseph, on the contrary. there is a very strong need in both the IDF and civilian for high-tech people. This is a field where people with analytical ability honed by Gemara learning can make major contributions.

We believe that a) the army is not an acceptable place for any yeshiva bachur regardless of how little he’s learning.

B) the nachal Hareidi was only intended for boys who would otherwise become mechalilei Shabbos.

C) The yeshiva draft law places all Yidden in E.Y. In danger by weakening limud Hatorah, which is our main zechus.

D) If Nachal Hareidi boys were killed, it signifies we need to do Teshuva & accrue more zechusim.

E) We certainly protest the draft which would leave us with less zechusim & thereby more soldiers dying Ch”vsh.

F) We don’t make a specific misheberach for Israeli soldiers because we need to be clear that it’s existence is a terrible bedieved, only for boys that would otherwise go otd. We have them in mind by acheinu other general tefilos for klall Yisroel.

Those that died protecting klal yisroel are kedoshei elyon.

@Haimy,
“…..limud Hatorah, which is our main zechus….”

Nobody else learns Torah except for yeshiva bocharim?
You’re buying into the commandeered idea that only they have zechusim, and only their Torah protects EY.
What about those who work, find time to learn pre or post a hard day’s work? There’s also chessed, tzedakah done by ordinary Yidden , so many even , lifnei mishurat hadin… others who say Tehillim and daven whenever they can.. Don’t their zechusim count? Maybe it’s their zechusim who protect? Who can say, no?
We’re not capable of measuring zechusim. It’s wonderful that young bocharim learn, but it’s not meant for the majority of the masses. Our greatest rabbonim, tanaim, amaoraim worked for a living. This style of everybody continuing in kollel is a relatively new phenomenon, mostly people worked and the Jewish people survived. If it’s a serious bochar and if he can be supported by family or donors of means, then by all means.
” Yoter Yegia Kapo min Yerei Shomayim”…. I saw a vort on this that explains ” Greater is the Yirei Shamayim who toils for his food , than the Yirei Shomayim who doesn’t.”
The world stands on Torah, Avodah & Gemilat Chasadim… All of this is Torah and they all provide zechusim.

Another zionist forum…. Sign….
let me guess, all the MO want everyone to serve and all the Yeshivish/Chardiem don’t want to serve…..

No further comments necessary. No one will change their mind. On a side note, Being mager tov has nothing to protesting being drafted.

Haimy

Typical, As soon as you have an untenable position you pull out the gedolim joker.
Please show any gadol that posits in a serious Teshuva that jews are somehow different and never needed and don’t need an army.

MRSarah, please remind me. I do not have time to look for needles in haystacks.

Haimy, it is well known that what Chareidi gedolim say in public and private are often two different things. It is pikuach nefesh for them. Rav Eliashiv was stunned by extremists when he made a deal about relocating graves. Imagine what the Pelegniks would do given that they are already at war with the rest of the Chareidim. The rest of your points are simply erev raviut.

@manitou Why can no one from the pro army answer my question? We need an army but we also need learners.

NCB, you misread Mantou’s post. He referred to the gedoim joker, as in from a deck of cards. 🃏

The repository of Torah has always been the Chareidim. The modern orthodox yidden were the Zevuluns who went out into the academic/professional world. “We” strive to be shevet Yisochor who are the spiritual backbone of klal Yisroel.
Look at you seforim shelf, at least 95% was written by a Chareidi yid. Artscroll Shas etc. Written & edited by a Chareidi Jew. Mishna Berura, kitzur Shulchan aruch, Aruch hashulchon, Igros Moshe, all Chareidim.
The chachmei hador belong to the chareidim because they have invested so much into producing gaonei yisroel.
They have taken responsibility for the chinuch system in E.Y.
It is absolutely foolish for unqualified people so voice their opinion about this subject. It’s no different than a layman expressing his opinion about how a brain surgeon should operate. Or a Chareidi Jew telling a MO Jew how to run his hedge fund or law practice, everyone should stick to their area of expertise.

So now since everyone agrees there’s a need both for full time Torah learners in Yeshiva as well as full time soldiers in the army, given the fact that less than 1% of the Jewish population in Israel seek to be full time Torah learners in Yeshiva, whereas a large percent of the population is happy to enlist in the Israeli army, we clearly realize there’s actually a shortage of full time Yeshiva men while there’s no shortage of full time soldiers.

Therefore anyone with any intelligence realizes we need to draft more men into Yeshivas. And that there’s no need for more men in the army, which is already fully staffed by the large majority of the Israeli population who refuses to learn Torah full time thereby leaving that very needed duty of more Torah study to those who volunteer to serve in the Yeshiva as Torah men.

The obvious conclusion is to not only allow but to encourage more men to go into Yeshiva rather than the army.

I stand by what I said, and I did not misread the word joker as joke. I know exactly what he said.

His assertion is that pulling down a proof from a gadol is not a legitimate counter-point and is something we only do when we have nothing to say. This is clearly false to anyone with the most remedial exposure to Orthodox Judaism. He’s now claiming that people are putting words in rebbeim’s mouths, which is not what he originally said at all. I’m fine with him making this claim since it’s not doing him any favors given that Haimy linked to an article with his proof.

If you want a world in which we don’t have any authoritative voices and every individual gets to just make up his own drashas from his Bible, I recommend you try a Church. If you actually have so little exposure to Orthodoxy that you truly believe it when you say the gadolim don’t actually have a problem with joining the IDF, then I reiterate that you should not be posting here because you have no idea how anything works.

Avi K: I heard that Moshe Rebbeinu privately said it’s okay to eat pork… Seriously, do you ever listen to yourself? The gedolim are not secret Zionists no matter how much you fantasize about it. Just man up and admit that you live in an alternate, Kahanist sphere that is not sanctioned by the mainstream, Charedi rabbis.

Haimy,
Where’s his signature ? Is this letter legit,or no one is allowed to ask on this forum?… and why are there conflicting reports over the years about his stance vis-a-vis Nachal Chareidi? . And if he was opposed, then why the demonstrations against him in NY, 12 years ago by the Satmar picketing him & cursing him? . And why after his petirah, the celebrations by extremists with lechaims, posters, etc. villifying him?….And didn’t Rav Ovadia Yosef also once say that bocharim should join the IDF if they’re not learning… Although this bit of info mysteriously disappeared on Inet. And unless I ‘m mistaken, same for Rav Eliyashev..
Anyway, let’em totalky disband the IDF starting tomorrow, no army at all, and call it a day.. L’chaim.

Haimy, Neville chaimberlin

I won’t go down this rabbit hole about if I was making fun of gedolim or not.

I’m still waiting for a comprehensive Halacha Teshuva staying that Frum people are patur from milchemes chova.

The fact is that the truth is very uncomfortable to all that have a shred of integrity. I am a chareidi and I learned in kolel for ten years and I loved it and would not have wanted to give it up to be a soldier. BUT how can I say that someone else has to pick up a weapon for me or have to support me since I think that learning is the best thing?? How can I impose my values on someone else??

The Chachmei Yisroel don’t need to provide anyone a written teshuva explaining their decisions. The Yishuv in E.Y. has long fought for it’s independence from the Zionist regime. Nachal Chareidi was a big chidush & never intended for a boy able to sit in yeshiva. There are many reasons why the chachmei yisroel want us out of the army, not only because of bittul torah. If you don’t respect their opinion then no written Teshuva will change your mind, if you respect their opinion then you don’t need a Teshuva.

@anon1m0us In the times of tanach, EVERYONE was learning and only the most learned were the ones who went to battle. Thing is now, most Jews are in the army rather than learning. Like I’ve said before, if chilonim went to learn half time I would have no problem sending my child to fight half the time too.

You have to remember who is RUNNING this world, and although you may disagree, many people like Joseph have said are saying that the army is doing enough hishtadlus. We’ve won countless wars without the chareidim and protected our country very well with the insane odds against us. It’s been working till now, so why complain? Had we been losing wars with thousands of dying I think many of us and the gedolim may feel different on the issue…

Shopping613
Who said in the times of tanach everyone was learning?

Neville chaimberlin
Why are you bringing in Zionism and Satmar? This is a straightforward Halacha that is called a milchemes chova (self defense) and everyone is mechuyav.

manitou- ages 20 to 60. what heter is there to impose this mitzvah on an 18 year old?
we are not at war. Because of the army. Hence, all we need is enough to prevent war.
My rebbi’s american cousin came to our yeshiva by a shalosh seudos, and he told us about how he tried to get in the army for a while, and they just refused him, stating, they didn’t have boots in his size.
After pressing, they finally let him in.
He has normal sized feet.
They obviously did not need him, otherwise they would not have made up such a stupid excuse. Let him join, the more the merrier, right? But no, he was rejected over nothing. They made up a reason as to why they could not take him.
There are plenty of bachurim with that shoe size, yet they are not getting a ptur for having average sized feet.

mantitou: Why do you think there would be any more of a chiyuv to join the IDF than there is to join the American army?

@SHopping613: Actually, since the 6 day war, Israel has not won any real wars. It technically LOST the Yom Kippir war. If it wasn’t for a seize fire with Egypt, Israel would not be able to concentrate it’s forces against Syria in the Golan. Egypt recaptured the Suez which was a big win for them. Almost half of Israel’s air-force was destroyed and approximately 2,700 Jewish soldiers were killed. I don’t know how you can consider that a win! Eben in Lebanon, Israel paid too high of a price against Hezbollah. I’m sorry, but since the 6 day war, Israel did not win any wars. There were always seize fires to save face.

In the time of the Tanach, learning had NOTHING to do with who goes to war. That was never the question that was asked by the Cohen. Those questions were also only asked for a milhemet reshut. A milhemet mitzvah everyone needed to fight. I would think Pikuach nefesh is a mitzvah.