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Yserbius123 -“Health: Which is where the issue stems from. The Chareidi lifestyle wouldn’t survive a day if it weren’t for the vast amounts of economic aid the Medina provides them. Since they by and large don’t make enough money to support themselves, they rely on that aid. Since the non-Chareidi sector by and large do support themselves plus pay taxes that end up in Yeshivas, there is a lot of animosity against them.”
Right and I posted this above:
“They should pay the Charedim a salary for sitting and learning because the learning protects all of the people in the State of Israel.”
I really believe the Chilonim are getting a great deal & the Charedim are getting the short end of the stick. They only give the Charedim Social Programs and they don’t let them work unless they do army service. They should pay them like they pay career army personnel. The safety that they provide the State of Israel is worth at least as much as an army person. The reason they don’t realize this is because they believe in “Koach V’otzem Yodi” and Not in Hashem.
What is the source for the law that states that one cannot get a job if they don’t serve?
Interjection, it’s simple really. Every israeli must go to isralei army – a mandatory darft. If you are leaning then you are potur. If however you want to go to work thne you must serve your draft.
Also, as I asked earlier, how come people are not able to get litvishe shidduchim if they do national service? I don’t understand that, not everyone is cut out for seminary…
Perhaps because they realize the difference in outlook would bring marriage problems? Would you be interested in getting married with someone who dismisses what is valuable in your eyes and who greatly values what is irrelevant in your eyes? I wouldn’t and most people wouldn’t. Most people see marriage as building life with our soulmate, the one we agree with in regards to important life issues; most people do not use marriage and relationships in general as a crowbar to get our partner to change and assimilate (that is not our way, it is what some nonjews do).
People who wish to do national service or military service should be able to do so, whether or not they realize the reality is quite different from brochures and advertising. I have never tried to dissuade anyone from enrolling in either, although, of course, my children and close family I definitely would. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, ie the attempt to force into military service or national service, people who do not want anything to do with it.
But I mean, what if they were not exactly doing it for the typical reason? The biggest reason that I am doing sherut leumi next year, is because I was in seminary and I need the following things next year;
1. A re-do of this year.
2. I don’t know what I want to do for a parnossah (the career of the day is medical billing, but that is likely to change…), and I need to get job experience and have something to put on my resume while thinking about what I will do for a parnossah.
3. I wanted to do a shana bet progam, but I need to have the ability to have my bills paid somehow, so I plan on taking night classes, hopefully in a bais yaakov seminary, but I have to wait another month until getting info on that.
And people are saying I can’t get a litvishe shidduch for those reasons?
I am not sure what a “litivishe shidduch” means, but I do know that there is a very wide variety of mindsets among bochurim in the best Yeshivos. There are definitely some that would view Sheirut L’umi as a plus and something that distinguishes you from (what they perceive as) the masses.
like in chareidi yeshivos, I want to marry a learner and live in E”Y (I am not shidduch dating yet…).
like in chareidi yeshivos, I want to marry a learner and live in E”Y (I am not shidduch dating yet…).
I assume you want to marry an english speaker (American or Brit). Sherut should not be a problem, as they are not “real” Charaidim anyway. You may have issues getting your children into school, but as an American, those issues already exist.
But I could theoretically live in an anglo area of Yerushaliyim, such as Ramat Eshkol, Har Nof, or Givat Hamivtar, and I would be able to send my kids to a more chilled type of bais yaakov/ yeshiva. I have plenty of strikes against me when it comes to shidduch dating, and getting my future children G-d willing into schools anyway, so I am not so worried.
Health: I’m sorry, was Sanhedrin re-instated when I wasn’t looking? Have you been declared a Navi? Because you seem to understand how exactly Israel is protected from violence very well. How else do you know that Hashem will send thousands of blood crazed Hamasniks into B’nei Brak the minute someone leaves the Bais Medrash to get a job!?
I’m sick of hearing about how the Chareidim “protect” the Medina. Nobody knows that and nobody has reshus to say that. Do you think that Jews in America are less protected by Hashem because there is a smaller percentage of people learning in Kollel? Don’t be ridiculous.
I’m sorry, but the main issue with the Israeli Chareidim is their refusal to go to work. If there never had been an IDF draft, there would be no Chareidi society like there is today. They go to Yeshiva not to protect Israel but to avoid the draft. And while ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? you still can’t argue that they should not get jobs if, in theory, the draft would cease to exist.
But I could theoretically live in an anglo area of Yerushaliyim, such as Ramat Eshkol, Har Nof, or Givat Hamivtar, and I would be able to send my kids to a more chilled type of bais yaakov/ yeshiva.
Bezras Hashem.
snowbunny: Don’t bet on it being more “chilled”. Har Nof is only about a quarter Anglo. And the Anglos are often more sincere in their Chareidishkeit then the Sabras.
Ramat Eshkol? Its the new trendy, and hip area to live for young chareidi families whose husbands are learning.
I could always send my daughters to schools in ramat beit shemesh…
I would like to have filtered internet in my home. I just got rid of my facebook accounts as a step towards that reality.
Snowbunny as others already have written, full-time learners, or even english-fluent litvish full-time learners, are not identical twins or xerox copies of each others. Each one of us only needs one soulmate, you should find yours quickly and easily. There are people who are completely against national service but also there are people who don’t really have an opinion (possibly having never met anyone who did) and are open to it, and there are yet other people who greatly admire those who do.
You seem very determined, perhaps you should consider starting dating.
I am still in seminary- and it is not even pesach yet…
Yserbius123 -“Health: I’m sorry, was Sanhedrin re-instated when I wasn’t looking? Have you been declared a Navi? Because you seem to understand how exactly Israel is protected from violence very well. How else do you know that Hashem will send thousands of blood crazed Hamasniks into B’nei Brak the minute someone leaves the Bais Medrash to get a job!?”
I never said the last line, but of course you’d exaggerate and lie because your zionist ideals are being threatned. I didn’t make it up -I heard this from R’ Shach zt’l. I posted the story here once. Now was he a Novi? I doubt that. Maybe he had Ruach Hakodesh. But it doesn’t matter if he had or not. He had Daas Torah. I know a lot of people here and in general think they have Daas Torah as much as any Godol, but most Frum people think Gedolim know more than them. It’s a shame in the MO community that they don’t know what Daas Torah means!
“I’m sick of hearing about how the Chareidim “protect” the Medina.”
Of course you are -the truth hurts!
“Nobody knows that and nobody has reshus to say that.”
I just told you were I got this FROM. And he doesn’t need your permission to say it.
“Do you think that Jews in America are less protected by Hashem because there is a smaller percentage of people learning in Kollel? Don’t be ridiculous.”
We in the US definitely don’t need as much Zechusim as in Israel. Over there it’a a Mokom Sakana. Hence they need greater amt. of learners.
“I’m sorry, but the main issue with the Israeli Chareidim is their refusal to go to work. If there never had been an IDF draft, there would be no Chareidi society like there is today. They go to Yeshiva not to protect Israel but to avoid the draft. And while ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? you still can’t argue that they should not get jobs if, in theory, the draft would cease to exist.”
No, they go to Yeshiva to learn Torah. They can’t leave the Yeshiva, when they would want to, because the Zionists would draft them. Right now – all the Gedolim say it’s Ossur to go to the IDF.
Right now I think the MO, like Bennett, are going to crash and burn like Lapid. I was reading that Bibi offered them a good deal to join the coalition and they don’t seem interested. All they seem interested in is breaking the Charedim away from Torah learning. This will fail and Bibi will go with the leftists and the Charedim. The left will not just stop building in the West Bank, they will dismantle settlements. But where will the MO move to? There is no place in Israel proper. They’ll have to move back to US, UK, USSR etc. where most came from. But they won’t be able to live in Frum or Jewish communities because they don’t have any money and good jobs are scarce. They’ll have to live in some Goyishe Hick town. In Israel their housing was paid for or supplemented by the Israeli Gov. This doesn’t exist in other Countries. And where it does, like in the US with HUD, it’s almost impossible to get on. Because of their hatred to Charedim -they are cutting off their nose in spite of their face!
I think its simply a matter of superiority. Do the secular rule over the religious or do the religious rule over the secular. Coequal status is not acceptable. So long as the secular serve those who sit and study; they are acceptable. But if they deny their servile position and try to overrule the Sages, then it follows.
Charles Snort, !!!!???!?!??!?!!!!!!!!!??…
Recently, a new MK from the Yesh Atid party spoke in the Knesset, stating her goals as follows (she had discussed a story in the Gemara in Kesubos about Rabbi Rechumei who used to come home once a year on erev Yom Kippur, and one year he forgot. His wife shed one tear and the roof upon which Rabbi Rechumei was davening collapsed and he died):
“I learn that often, in a dispute, both sides are right, and until I understand that both my disputant and I, both the woman and Rabbi Rechumei, feel that they are doing the right thing and are responsible for the home. Sometimes we feel like the woman, waiting, serving in the army, doing all the work while others sit on the roof and study Torah; sometimes those others feel that they bear the entire weight of tradition, Torah, and our culture while we go to the beach and have a blast. Both I and my disputant feel solely responsible for the home. Until I understand this, I will not perceive the problem properly and will not be able to find a solution. I invite all of us to years of action rooted in thought and dispute rooted in mutual respect and understanding.
I aspire to bring about a situation in which Torah study is the heritage of all Israel, in which the Torah is accessible to all who wish to study it, in which all young citizens of Israel take part in Torah study as well as military and civil service. Together we will build this home and avoid disappointment.”
Translation comes from The Jewish Week.
So I take it that until all the chilonim become frum and share in the spiritual burden, the chareidim can stay in the beis midrash.
I don’t think she would say “become frum” but “learn Torah.” It sounds like she wants mandatory Torah classes in high schools (or maybe in the Army) and she wants the Chareidim to serve in the army or civil service.
The real problem is that they correlate the laws of the mandatory draft and preventing non-enlisted citizens from being employed. They should completely seperate it and allow non-draftees to be legally employed. If that were the case then you would see a lot more Chareidim employed in the workforce.
So the blame as to why so many Chareidim are not working even though they may not be cut out for learning lies at the feet of the chiloni government. (You must recognize that even though many Chareidim strongly object on concientious grounds to serving in the military, they certainly desire to be employed but are legally prohibited from working since they did not serve in the armed forces.)
“The real problem is that they correlate the laws of the mandatory draft and preventing non-enlisted citizens from being employed. They should completely seperate it and allow non-draftees to be legally employed. If that were the case then you would see a lot more Chareidim employed in the workforce.”
Any person who is motivated enough to get a job in Israel without serving can get a patur from the army which will allow them to get a job.
interjection -“Any person who is motivated enough to get a job in Israel without serving can get a patur from the army which will allow them to get a job.”
I really don’t think this is true anymore – maybe it was once upon a time. Because of all the politics I think it’s really hard to get a Patur anymore.
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