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Once upon a time, in late 19th Century and early 20th Century russia, there were a mass of anti-religious socialists and Communists who thought that atheistic Communism was the wave of the future. they derided Torah and an authentic Orthodox lifestyle as outmoded and an embarrassing anachronism. They emigrated from Russia and went to Israel and America. Their children in america reacted to the Red Scare by transforming their message into “social justice”. LBJ’s Great Society was eventually passed with the help of the descendants of the anti-religious Jewish Socialists. Further liberalism expanded the entitlements and raised the limits.
In the meantime, Orthodox Jewry was on the ropes after churban Europe. Many predicted its complete disappearance. The response of the gedolim was to go into battle mode. Every boy was encouraged to go to yeshiva and learn as long as possible. Beis Yaakovs were founded, where the girls were raised to be Orthodox and to marry a learning boy. However, the money available to fund someone learning in kollel was limited.
In a strange and wonderful confluence of factors, the entitlement programs enacted by the descendants of the anti-religious Jewish socialists enabled kollel as a viable option.
The anti-religious socialists ended up ensuring the continuity of Orthodoxy. Venahapoch hu!
Or you should say a small piece of the puzzle, or “yad Hashem” in history, is revealed.
No.
Such funding destroys the Kavod (Honor) of Torah.
Josh31- what funding is good enough for the Kavod of Torah?
Jothar, there is funding and funding. Argument there was about Jewish (presumably Torah keeping) community funds, not funding specifically for the poor from a government in which Torah keeping Jews are only a minority.
“Josh31- what funding is good enough for the Kavod of Torah?”
Some “out-of-town” kollels provide stipends such that the recipients are disqualified from getting government support. Also, check out the YU kollel.
In a few lines, this is going to revert to the debate about kollel or no kollel.
All I want to point out to jothar is the fact that, even with the stipends for bnai yeshiva in eretz yisroel and some welfare help here in the US, the vast majority of these families live in the most impoverished circumstances, are a too-heavy buren on theri paretns and families and sned their wives out to work in multiple jobs. To my humble estimation, this is NOT the way Torah meant it to be. To be really effective, cut the number of Kollel-guys by ninety percent and give the remaining ten percent a living wage.
Josh31, you wrote, “Some “out-of-town” kollels provide stipends such that the recipients are disqualified from getting government support.”
In the central US town where I lived, kollel members did receive a substantial stipend but it was paid as a parsonage, which reduced their taxes & allowed their wives & children to qualify for WIC & Medicaid. This allowed them to obtain cholov yisroel milk using WIC vouchers (at least half of the cholov yisroel milk purchased in this town was purchased using WIC vouchers).
In the Midbar (and shortly after) the Shevet levi was 2.5% of the total community, not including converts. 10% of 3 major commodities went to them so that they could be supported with honor.
If we can grow a Shomer Shabbos community to have 1 million families, 25,000 kollel families can be supported BeKavod (with honor).
In Israel if the “secular” majority will see orthodoxy not as those relying upon the state, then there will be better success with Kiruv (bringing them back to keep Shabbos).
jothar- your comments from the mishneh are commedable…..is this why every bochur from lakewood wants to marry a rich girl?? (and his rosh yeshiva encourages him to do so…)
anon for this- is thsi the way a ben torah should live- with WIC and food stamps?
If the practice in this country is for students in professional schools to rely upon certain government programs, then for those in Kollel to rely on the same programs for the same length of time would not be a problem of Kavod HaTorah.
jothar- as a matter fact, if I would have my druthers, I would eliminate 90% of the kollel positions. I don’t see where the status of a rabbi (for all you know, mt screen name may be a nickname) obligates one to accept a way of life that was never , ever part of our tradition and a way of life that stands squarely against a slew of gemoros, mitzvos, rishonim and more. Just start from mishpitom, go through kessubos,kiddushin and berochos and check the rishonim and you will see that what is happening now is absolutely wrong.
I did not want to get into another discussion of whether there should kollel or not….but your question needed an answer.
BTW- what does WIC have to do with being a talmid chochom?
Everyone agrees that there should be a LIMITED amount of people who are learning ,so as to prepare the next dor. What is objectionable is the fact that everyone ends up relying upon the rather stretched means of the klal.
WIC and food stamps are to make sure this country is always ready to go to war if needed. Those of military age must be healthy. WIC actually saves the government money.
Those pushing military readiness are not socialists. Hence, if you are eligible and not using this food aid will put you or your children at risk of malnutrition you are probably obligated to accept from Torah law and to be a good citizen.
BS”D
LOL Josh, that may have been true long ago and I have seen posters saying “Food Stamps Keep America Strong” but WIC in particular is a post Vietnam program with no thought of the military.
To be honest, after the complicity of the Roosevelt administration in the deaths of six million Jews, legitimate use of entitlement programs to help build Torah is proper reparations. However, depending on this aid is demeaning to the kovod of Yiddishkeit and Torah, and they really should only be used in cases of extreme need, or during a limited time in which one is in kollel and raising a family while preparing for a life spreading and teaching Torah.
And abuse, well, Creedmoor does not exist in a vacuum. It is a parody and extreme exaggeration of a very real problem.
jothar- no one has ever denied the actual fact of a kollel. It is the acceptance that EVERYONE has to be in kollel that is being disputed.
BS”D
If kollel were such a bad thing, the Federal government would not operate one in Otisville :)))))))))!
Most commentators, I believe interpret the warning in the Luchos to be against kidnapping. But there are plenty of other warnings against theft in the Torah.
Users of dishonest weights and measures are called an abomination which is more severe than other actions which are called “doing an abomination”.
I nominate 600kilobear, three comments ago as comment of the year.
kollel in the united states according to you is only possible because the u.s. government great, then when there is no u. s. help and they have kollelim can we call that the direct hand of Hashem???
so widening the appeal of kollel for the only reason of not being poor. I thought people learn in kollel for the reason and the appeal to be close to our Torah and Hashem.
yetzer hara I understand, but I think the main idea is that we forget that Hashem is the provider not the gobernment and it is Hashem that decided to create a system so people could learn in an easier way , so we have to say because of Hashem we have this programs and we are able to learn in an easier way not socialisim.
I guess you are right. Hashem seit it up. But if Hashem wanted it could have been different.
A recent news item I believe may have relevance to this thread:
“HaRav Eliashiv Signs Ban Against Fellowship of Christians and Jews”
Other leaders are on this ban.
3 separate reasons are given for the ban. Two are specific to religiously affiliated organizations. The third is “the prohibition against accepting charity from a non-Jew in public view”.
In that case, B’H Section 8 and Welfare is not in public view.
Even if not in public view, it may be problematic.
With the practice so widespread, it effectively becomes in public view.
If it was not already in public view then starting this thread would have been assur.
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