- This topic has 117 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
BS”D
Call it what you want, but unless I have to deal with the state bureaucracy when I visit E”Y, I don’t need to desecrate the shem hakodosh of Yisroel by associating it with the medine. However, that is my personal practice and I don’t care nor have I the right or knowledge to care if someone wants to use another term.
Regarding why there is no 8th Rebbe – it is a little off topic but my own feeling is simple – there was and is no one to appoint, and appointing the wrong one would be a disaster for Chabad not only as a Chassidus but as a worldwide organization. The one physical descendant had no interest and was at odds with Chabad (and he has passed away so had it happened that he was appointed and had never broken away we’d be back to square 1 anyway). Better no one than more than one or no one who is universally accepted, as that is the very sad situation in another Chassidus that was once so free of anything even remotely resembling machloikes.
I never met any chabadnik whos puts down the medinah and other Jews. Something is fishy here.
Yanky, well said.
The words of Hatikvah are beautiful, but the melody is one of most deep and soul-stirring pieces of music in the world. (It seems that some of the melody may have older, possibly non-Jewish origins, but that doesn’t take away from the metzius.)
It reflects the yiddishe yearning for the geula, even by the secular yidden.
Believe it or not, if you look at the full version on Wikipedia, there are stanzas that talk of tikkun chatzos!
Since it was sung by many who were moser nefesh to give their lives at the gallows for the nation, it is hallowed by kedoshim like Dov Gruner and Feinstein-Barzani, etc.
The kedusha of the whole nation comes through. Such beautiful words to such a beautiful uplifting melody bespeaks the RBSH’s hashgacha. It didn’t happen by accident.
Here is full text from pasted from Wikipedia, sorry it is a bit garbled. It is pilei playim that a secular yid could write something like this.
Hebrew Transliteration English translation
?????? ???????? ?????????, Nefesh yehudi homiyah, A Jewish soul still yearns,
????? Refrain
?????????? ????????????, Hatikvah hannoshanah, The ancient hope,
???????? ???????? ????????, Yizzelu kegeshem nedavot, Flow like benevolent rain,
????? Refrain
????? Refrain
??????? ???????? ????????; Bekol hamulah yippolu; With tumultuous noise fall;
????? Refrain
?????? ???????? ????????????? Uvein charvot yerushalayim And among the ruins of Jerusalem
????? Refrain
????? Refrain
????? Refrain
????? Refrain
??? ???? ????? ?????????, Et kol achad chozeinu, The voice of one of our visionaries,
???? ???????? ????????????! Gam acharit tikvateinu!
I had to barf after reading that non-Jewish song written by a man without Judaism.
Its called, turning the holy into the profane.
BS”D
But those ARE NOT the words of what is sung in the medine. “Lihyot am chofshi beartzeinu” was added later if what you have is the original text.
And sorry to say but every Chabad Chossid has nothing but contempt for the medine especially after Gush Katif (and if he keeps it quiet it is because he has to do so in order to get more important parts of Yiddishkeit across).
With the exception of one menuval who was thrown out of Chabad by the Rebbe ZYA (a VERY difficult achievement that I believe was shared by only one other person, a violent mecharcher riv whose name I cannot share because I know only his surname and confusion will result if I post that), I am not putting down other Jews.
If you feel that bringing sources against an entity that has done so many negative things to Jews is putting down other Jews, then you must feel very insecure knowing perhaps that you mistakenly support the medine only because it is “politically correct” to do so, or that Rav Kook ZL really does not have much of an halachic leg to stand on (most of his writings are very emotional in nature) and that in any case few people really follow in his ways especially after the Gush Katif disaster that showed what the medine really does to protect Jews by giving up land won bederech ness and letting Kassams rain down on the poorest of its citizens.
Gut shabbos everyone – I am in the same timezone as that entity which means that Shabbos will soon be here.
BS”D
In terms of a secular Jew being able to write something like that (not that it is really much better than some of today’s less than inspiring Jewish pop lyrics – part of the appeal is that the language is so much better than today’s Ivrit) – keep in mind that the secular Jews of that era were but one generation from their roots bekedusha – and many knew that they were wrong for being prikei oyl malchus shamayim and therefore longed for Yiddishkeit (to which they could not return because, in today’s lingo – it wasn’t cool).
BTW Imber was known for his abuse of alcohol – and he died in chutz la’aretz. He died in New York in 1909 from chronic alcoholism.
Itzik, Sometimes a Chasidus took a non-descendant as Rebbe (I think Karlin-Stolin after Rebbe Ahron Hagodol comes to mind).
Wikipedia has a BBC recording from 20 April 1945 of Jewish survivors of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp singing Hatikvah, only five days after their liberation by Allied forces. (The words sung are from the original poem by Imber.) Listen to it, it is unbelievable.
Is anybody a bar hochi to denigrate something that was cherished by the kedoshim?
BS”D
If not for His intervention, there is no way Israel would be able to protect itself from the 100 million Arabs that surround it.
If the six day war cannot be seen as a ness and a ringing endorsement of the State by HKB”H, then people are either blind or naive (I’d prefer to say stupid, but I’ll just get a lot of flak for name-calling in Chodesh Elul C”V).
Sorry – no logic here. The ness happened to protect JEWS in ERETZ YISROEL, not the institution of the medine. The mess of 1973 proves that all too well – where it was so clear that only Hashem’s intervention prevented a complete disaster chas vesholom.
And the only reason the medine will not collapse until Moshiach comes is that if it did at this point, six million Jews would lose their lives chas vesholom. Shoimer petoim Hashem – Am Yisroel made a terrible mistake with the medine, but Hashem protects its inhabitants because they are Jews in E”Y.
Pashute yid,yanki55,
It is abundantly clear that this Itzik is an impostor. Even joseph ,that other implacable enemy of the medinah, has been hoodwinked. At least, joseph and his friends (will hill,feivel, etc) don’t hide behind another figure and express their support for satmar openly. I think they are wrong but they are transparent and for that, yo ucan respect them.
Itzik, on the other hand, is obviously a fraud and tries to hide behind the Rebbe zz’l so that his words can be accepted. Note how every time he adds the sly comment: “I don’t know if it [the rebbe’s words] can be confirmed”. Of course,they cannot be confirmed because they are lies!
he shows his real face in this last posting by dismissing all the shlichim and all the work they have done! he is a joke and a fraud!
To answer him directly: I know Rav teichtel for ten years and he NEVER,EVER said any word that comes close to what Itzik says. And I did discuss ‘Eim habonim Semeicha’ with him. No surprise there: his grandfather did write it! (You did not even know if it was a grandfather or great-grandfather-because you barely know Rav teichtel, I bet!)And yes, in the early days ,he was an opponent of Zionism as were most other Hungarian rabbonim. The war and the destruction it brought upon the Jews changed his mind ! Just read “Eim Habonim semeicha’!
Enough of that impostor- don’t continue to try to besmirch the name of Lubavitch and the rebbe zz’l!
Thank you Pashuteh Yid and welcome to the ranks of risha’im on this site.
I never knew the refrains not commonly sung and indeed they reflect the deep feelings of Yiddishkeit by the composer(s), as opposed to simply feelings of a free nation.
Btw, did you know that Chaim Nachman Bialik (oops…am I allowed to say that name on this site?) suggested that the Shir Hama’alos sung by Yossele Rosenblatt (composed by chazzan Pinchas Minkowski) and sung in virtually every home, be used as the national anthem?
I wonder if Cantoresq knows that?
Well, Itzik will just have to read these postings after shabbos…
It is absoluteyl hilarious to read his rantings. When anything goes RIGHT (six-day war, the continuing existence of Israel,etc), then it is Hakodesh Boruch Huh having pity upon Jews,not a word of acknowledgement to the medinah for giving shelter to all these Jews…no hakoras hatov here..
BUT when something goes wrong (1973, gush katif), then ,of course, it is the terrible reshoim,etc….typical of those who cannot engage in a real debate…they pick and choose what they want, trying to justify their erroneous arguemnts…
Itzik-save us the need to show how wrong you are…go crawl back into your hiding hole and stop giving chabad a bad name…
berlin, You are going off base claiming that Itzik is not a Lubavitcher Chosid. He is in fact a well-know Chosid in the former Soviet Union. And he runs several websites that proudly proclaim his chasidus.
Rebbe Rashab (5th Lubavitcher Rebbe) on Zionism:
Rabbi Aaronson:
The Lubavitcher Rebbe:
From all the writings of the Zionists we can clearly see that their main aim and activity is to create the impression among the Jewish People that the whole purpose of the Torah and the commandments is merely to strengthen national feeling. This theory can easily be adopted by the youth who regard themselves as instruments prepared for the fulfillment of the Zionist ideal. They regard themselves as completely liberated form Torah and the commandments. They think nationalism has replaced religion… When Herzl was in the Holy Land he was far removed from G-d. He OPENLY PROFANED THE TORAH BY ENTERING THE HOLY CITY ON THE SABBATH. HE WENT TO THE SITE OF THE SANCTUARY WHICH EVEN FROM A HUMAN POINT OF VIEW HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE, THUS OPENLY PROFANING THE SABBATH IN THE HOLY CITY, AND IN THE PLACE OF HIS TEMPLE, DOING EVIL IN THE SIGHT OF G-D. In order to influence our brethren in favor of the Zionist aspiration for an independent nation and government, they have no alternative but to lead the people astray from the path of of Torah and the commandments, or at least, to weaken their attachment as much as possible SO THAT NATIONALISM SHOULD PREVAIL OVER TORAH, BECAUSE IT IS KNOWN THAT THOSE ATTACHED TO THE TORAH ARE UNLIKELY TO CHANGE AND ACCEPT SOME OTHER FORM OF FAITH. It is surely clear that the Zionists not only are not approaching Judaism, but that they entirely destroy Jewish souls in intentionally TAKING AWAY FROM THEM EVEN THE HIDDEN AND MYSTICAL FEELING IN THEIR SOULS FOR THE TORAH AND THE COMMANDMENTS….
Sholem Ber Schneersohn
************************************
“Regarding your question about the Zionists, allow me to respond briefly. Those who assist the Zionists will pay at the Day of Judgment, because they are causing the masses to sin. Therefore, whoever is on the side of G-d and his Torah shall not join with evildoers and not become attached to them. On the contrary, they should oppose them as much as possible.”
Your friend in truth, Shalom Dov Ber from Lubavitch
************************************
The Rebbe also said:
“The Zionists were more clever than the others, since they exchanged nationalism for the Torah and commandments, as Mandelstam wrote publicly, that a Jew doesn’t have to be someone who keeps the commandments , but rather is a Zionist, even if he does not wear phylacteries and does not keep the Sabbath….”
Berlin,
Why do you insist in speaking in so insulting a fashion? You and Itzik are on two sides of some fences, true. Why is nastiness required? So many of your posts tell other their “end will be bad”, “crawl into your hole”, “rantings”, etc. I think your posts are an embarrasment to the other more left-wing posters who state their positions with firmness and dignity.
Perhaps you are simply a young teenager with unmodulated excitability, or you are not aware of how your language inhibits your credibility. This is pre-school playground talk.
Please don’t say, “but he also…”. You are not a child.
joseph, please read HIS OWN WORDS. He claims to be a “chossid” but does not associate with chabad today. He has not brought down EVEN ONE ‘maamar” from the Rebbe zz’l to bolster his arguments. he dismisses every baal teshuvah movement ,from breslov to chabad to others. I have NEVER EVER hard such arguments from ANY Lubavitcher shaliach.
He barely knows Rav Teichtal from berlin (whom I know personally) and misquotes him too.
So, to say he is a “Lubavitcher chossid” is just not correct. He may claim some allegiance to the Rebbe’s father-in-law, the sixth rebbe, but clearly he is totally out of the mainstream in present-day chabad.
He may run any number of websites, it does not make him a Lubavitcher chossid. Gut shabbos.
sarah, before I close my computer for shabbos, i would ask you to read ALL my postings and not just the stray one or two…I don’t see my talk as insulting at all and when I see people actually wishing for the destruction of another six million jews, I absolutely will deploy what you consider “insulting words”. Have you ever read any of the “other’ literature? Have you ever read some of the seforim of the “other’side? If you would have read even a fraction of them, you would see that I surely have no monopoly on “insulting” words.
Whether my words are an embarassment,I ‘ll leave it to the other “left-wing” posters to decide.By the way, why do you consider it “left-wing”? I am a deeply conservative, traditonal jew who believes in some truths that others do not. This does not make me “left-wing”, just right. And you are totally wrong about my age….
Everyone knows that the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s were extremely anti-zionists all the way back to the time the zionists first came around.
“i would ask you to read ALL my postings and not just the stray one or two…I don’t see my talk as insulting at all and when I see people actually wishing for the destruction of another six million jews, I absolutely will deploy what you consider “insulting words””
I haven’t seen anything of the sort, so I must conclude that your take great leaps from posters’ legitimate opinions to gross exaggeration and ascribe evil intention and meaning that do not reflect reality. Yes, I do think that is childish.
“Have you ever read any of the “other’ literature? Have you ever read some of the seforim of the “other’side? If you would have read even a fraction of them, you would see that I surely have no monopoly on “insulting” words.”
I’m not sure how the content of written works that you find offensive relate to dialogue on this forum. If you can show me where Itzik has cursed you with “your end will be bad”, or has told you to “crawl back into your hole”, I might better understand how you stoop to such language.
“Whether my words are an embarassment,I ‘ll leave it to the other “left-wing” posters to decide.By the way, why do you consider it “left-wing”? I am a deeply conservative, traditonal jew who believes in some truths that others do not.”
That’s fine. I have no problem with anyone’s self-definition. Parenthetically, I do not see “left-wing” as being derogatory, nor do I see it as contradictory to “deeply conservative, traditional Jew”. As far as believing in “some truths”, those are truths as you see them. Others see different truths. That’s OK- just argue with dignity and maturity.
BS”D
Itzik, Sometimes a Chasidus took a non-descendant as Rebbe (I think Karlin-Stolin after Rebbe Ahron Hagodol comes to mind).
Yes – but again, we have no one who comes even close and when you add the risk of the wrong person getting control of the name Chabad and what it means today with all the moisdos, the possibilities of things going even worse than whatever problems we have now are astounding.
I guess we, along with the divided chassidus’n, will have to wait for Moshiach. And at the end of the day, that is the best and the only solution!
rabbiofberlin – I refuse to wrestle with you in the mud anymore. No Ignore function here, but consider yourself ignored.
Whoever referred to the kedoshim – that is Godwin’s Law in reverse! Some of the kedoshim (rightfully in their minds and understandably so) held pork and chilul Shabbos in very high regard. Besides that was in 1945 when no one knew what the medina would do to mistreat survivors (a survivor was seen as chas vesholom a sucker in the macho “sabra” culture of the day). Finally, that version, though I think it was the alcohol-induced spilling out of regrets of a man who left Yiddishkeit but could not return (much like when, on Purim or Simchas Torah, someone will spill out their life’s story), is NOT the version with the “Satanic Verse” that is the main objection to the present version.
And what would be most interesting would be to find out where those heliger survivors ended up after the war…some just may be in Williamsburgh for all we know.
Sarah, RabbiofBerlin was only addressing a post strongly, and did not insult the poster. By contrast, he and others including myself have had an entire thread calling us pro-freikeit, and requesting that we be banned. We have been called apikurism, and afra lpumeih (dirt should go into his mouth). There is simply no comparsion. Berlin was upset because he believes that Itzik is misrepresetning the Chabad position. It is one thing to be anti-zionist, but quite another to attribute that to the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
On that topic, all the heads of state of Israel would regularly go to the Rebbe for advice and brachos. They would not do that to chassidic groups that were anti-zionist, would they? Did they regularly visit the Satmar Rebbe? It is a reinvention of history to say this. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a hawk politically, and to suggest that he did not hold of the state, or get great nachas from it, and tried to insure it remained strong is total nonsense. Sure, he would have been happier if it were frummer, and nobody knows how he would have reacted to Gush Katif, maybe he would have prevailed on the heads to stop the withdrawal, but this is all speculation.
All the taxi drivers and pizza shop owners and barber shops have pictures of the rebbe, and he was revered by the average man in the street for his love of all Jews and the country as a whole.
Lessmoder, any writings about Zionists that were written before the holocaust are null and void, as the Jews at that time had nowhere to go. ALso Rav Zevin says that the shalosh shevuos, one of which is that the non-Jews should not subjugate the Jews too severely, became null and void with the holocaust, since they did not keep their end of the deal. It is total foolishness to try to turn back the clock. Listen to the recording of the Bergen Belsen survivors singing Hativah with all their heart 5 days after being liberated on Wikipedia. They were not singing the Neturei Karta song.
This is also a beautiful rayah to Reb Shlomo who says on his record Uvnei Yerushalayim that if you asked one of the 6 million on the way to the gas chambers what are you thinking about, he will say I am thinking about Yerushalyim. Sure enough, right after being liberated, the survivors were singing about Yerushalayim, just as Reb Shlomo said. If you can listen to that recording without tears, than perhaps it is time for a spiritual checkup.
The Hamon Am were desperate to go back to Eretz Yisroel. This is normative yiddishkeit. Anti-zionism is simply an extremist fringe movement. As much as you may try, you will not be able to turn the hearts of the Jewish masses away from their beloved state. You can post all the kannaishe writings you want, it is all irrelevant to the reality in the hearts of the yidden. Plently of gedolei Torah were pro-Zionist, as well. The state exists and is flourishing. Despite the efforts of the anti-zionists to make yiddish the official language, it didn’t happen, and is not going to happen any time soon. Not that yiddish wasn’t a gevaldig chapter in Jewish history, but this is a new era now. The same with anti-zionism as a whole, it is going nowhere. You will end up on the wrong side of history.
Instead of knocking your heads against the wall trying to undermine the beautiful edifice the RBSH has given us, why not work on ahavas yisroel to bring back our lost brothers by showing them genuine yiddishe warmth instead of negativity. DO you really enjoy knowing that you have a negative, dark, dreary hashkafah, instead of a positive bright, simchas hachaim that will make you dance with joy at the fact that we are in control of Eretz Yisroel, and have seen a kibbutz golyos with our own eyes as the neviim said. We have built Torah citadels, and a first rate economy and military and health care system, and top universities all with the RBSH’s help. There is so much to be thrilled about. It is a nebach that you anti-zionists have no simcha other than to post one-hundred year old, negative, outdated rhetoric, wishing that one day the state will go away so you can feel vindicated. It is such a sad way of life, but whom am I to suggest you can do much better for yourselves.
Pashuteh Yid,
“Sarah, RabbiofBerlin was only addressing a post strongly, and did not insult the poster.”
If you classify Berlin’s words as “strong”, then I don’t think the two of us have common ground for conversation. His posts are the written version of foaming at the mouth. It is extremely distasteful to log on and read curses on a Jewish website (“your end will be bad”). If these don’t bother you, we have little in common.
The Apikorus references bandied about with such ease are equally distasteful. I have written about unwarranted labeling as well in the past. I try not to open any threads with inflammatory headlines. Additionally, I generally do not open threads on this forum or the main site with threads referencing known Jewish personalities from any group, as I am certain to find L”H, MSR, and vitriolic language in these.
I have politely requested that other posters speak with dignity and maturity, including those of more right-wing persuasion. One in particular thanked me, albeit calling me “Morah” in jest. The two posters with whom I have recently interacted on this topic have rejected my request out of hand. I do my best, and then move on. Lo alecha hamelacha ligmor…
As far as the topic under discussion: The Rebbe, Israel, etc, I do not engage in meaningless debates, and have no problem with your assertion of any stance you choose. I usually try to keep my opinions to myself, unless I feel it is important to speak up. I feel it is important to speak up when Jewish posters are cursing, and engaging in disgusting, contemptible language (crawl into your hole). You don’t feel that is important. We can be different. That is OK.
Right now, some posters who engage in vulgar and nasty language maintain their right to do so, and are not willing to even acknowledge the problem. I know that may change in the future, and have much belief in our fellow posters and all Jews that we can and will eventually show our best side .
yet another posting that leads to hostility and bashing. whats going on heree? doesnt anyone have anything better to do then to fight fight fight??? its ok to argue and disagree but when the post starts out innocent or wen you call eachothers names you are just being children
SarahB,
I like your name, and your message :).
PashutehYid, wrong. What the Gedolim said about zionism before the war is as applicable today as it was then.
And even more important, the Gedolim still today remind us what reshoyim they are. So its not like it changed.
LessModer, whatever makes you happy.
Simple question……….
If the medinah is so treif, why are so many chareidim (Shas, UTJ et al)
dying to be part of the government?
The answer to that is the exact same as to the question of how they REMAIN in a govt that hands away Israeli land, kicks out people who were moser nefesh to live there, supplies fuel and supplies to the terrorists that kill Israelis, arms and trains “security personnel” that will kill Israelis, releases murderers who will kill more Israelis in exchange for dead bodies, etc. etc. etc………
“Hakesef ya’aneh es hakol”. (THAT plus a car and a driver).
Anyone who thinks otherwise is extremely naive.
Pashute Yid, THANK YOU !! I could never had said it better!!! YASHER KOACH !
To sarah and sarahB: Apart from quoting two very short phrases from my (many) postings, can you show how I have been insulting people? I am not even sure if telling a person that he should crawl back into his hole is insulting…And why do you deny me ,and others, the opportunity of answering in very strong terms what is being bandied on this website, which is “sinas yisroel” to the extreme (including many thousands of chareidim), which endangers six million jews again, which reaches out to ally itself with real reshoim (remember teheran..), and for this, I should remain quiet? Have you ever read a Poster of the Neturei Karta? I suggest you do….actually, all you have to do is read some of the rantings (yes, rantings) posted on this webiste concerning Eretz Yisroel, gedolei yisroel and rabbonim (check out the site on Rav tendler).It might just be a very illuminating read for you…
As the saying goes, if you cannot stand the heat, just leave the kitchen…
To Itzik, as they say in chess, checkmate! You have no answer for anything I said, so you leave the field…Just to offfend sarah-I will say, good riddance!
To lessmodernorthodox- you are entitled to your view and Pashute yid and myself to ours. History will judge!
lessmoderorthodox
“PashutehYid, wrong. What the Gedolim said about zionism before the war is as applicable today as it was then.”
there is a slight problem. the gedolim that were around pre, then post israel’s creation disagree with you. sorry to let you know that agudah, which does house i would say a “majority” of the “gedolim” did post israel’s creation go along with it, to the extent they joined the government. rav elyashiv and rav shteinman had nachal chareidi created, yes a unit in the ISRAELI army. but i forget, you only need to follow the “gedolim” when it suits you!
to sarah…one quick addendum….I have gone over my postings on this subject and nowhere do I find words to the effect of ” your end will be bad” please indicate where this quote has been said on this site!
I have also re-read itzik’s many postings…if dismissing and ignoring the tens of thousands of baalei teshuvah, if virtually wishing for the disappearance of israel, if lacking in nny kind of “hakoros hatov”, if all this is ok with you, (and Iztik wrote all this)and is not enough to make your blood boil and,yes, your mouth foam, then you and I have different perspectives in life.
Berlin,
May this year be a year of Brachah and growth for you. Try to be centered, focused, and modulated in both your intepretation of others’ position and your own replies. You can do it.
Yanky55
Member
Thank you Pashuteh Yid and welcome to the ranks of risha’im on this site.
I never knew the refrains not commonly sung and indeed they reflect the deep feelings of Yiddishkeit by the composer(s), as opposed to simply feelings of a free nation.
Btw, did you know that Chaim Nachman Bialik (oops…am I allowed to say that name on this site?) suggested that the Shir Hama’alos sung by Yossele Rosenblatt (composed by chazzan Pinchas Minkowski) and sung in virtually every home, be used as the national anthem?
I wonder if Cantoresq knows that?
_______________________________________________________________________________________
I’ve known it for years. As I recall it, the idea was universally rejected by all but the dati leumi faction. The secularists opposed it on two grounds. There were those who didn’t want a religous text to be the anthem of a secular state. Others didn’t want to offend the chareidim with the anthem.
mariner, I can’t disabuse you of such amaratzus. Nachlei charedi was not created by any of the gedolim you mentioned. And the Agudah is anti-zionists, but participates in the state organs to the extent its in its financial benefit.
This debate is a bit silly. Zionism is dead.
LessModer, keep in mind the following fact when you post. You will not succeed in turning the hearts of the yidden away from their beloved state. However, you may succeed in turning the hearts of yidden away from the gedolei torah.
Hill of Beans:
Zionism is dead? Since when? Among the “yeshivishe velt?”
Hill of Beans, Wow, I didn’t realize the British are back in the King David Hotel. Let’s get those good ole Haganah and Irgun guys on their case real quick.
Lifkuda tamid anachnu tamid, anu anu ha-Palmach.
(Come on, march along.)
The World Agudah movement voted in favor of the Peel Commission’s plan to partition Palestine. To say that THE gedolim were against the state is not true. There were many who were in favor, and that was even before the war. After the war, is a whole other ball game.
yossiea – You are factually mistaken.
That is from Hakol by Uriel Zimmer
Joseph, this has as much relevance to today as the fight to make Yiddish the official language of Israel. Why don’t you cite all the strong language used by the people who burned the Rambam’s works, and forbid learning Rambam today? Why don’t you cite all the strong language used by the Vilna Gaon against the Chassidim (their leaders should be put in stocks [those wooden things with a hole for the head and arms]), and assur all the chassidic movements today.
This is exactly what we mean when we say you will end up on the wrong side of history. The battle is over, the state exists, it is flourshing, and biggest surprise of all–rather than diminishing Torah learning, it has enabled it on a scale not seen in all of golus. The fears of that Marienbad convention were unfounded, and the state is the best thing ever to happen to the klal in the last 2,000 years. It is time to be modeh al haemes and be makir tov to the RBSH, instead of holding on to ancient conventions and pronouncements of an earlier, bygone era.
Keep burning those Rambams, Joseph.
Pashuteh Yid –
I was responding to a incorrect factual point made by yossiea, so please try not to lease any sleep over it.
Zionism has ALREADY ended up on the wrong side of history. History has ALREADY proven the Gedolim correct.
And why don’t you take your apikorsus elsewhere? No one is burning Rambam, but you are trying (unsuccesfully) to (C’V) burn the Torah itself.
Just a very small remark to joseph et al. Look into the actual Declaration of Independence for Israel and guess whose signature you will find there…R”Itshe meir levin’s, the brother-in-law of the Bais Yisroel, the gerrer rebbe zz’l, and the son of the Bendiner Rov zz’l.
Pashute Yid is absolutely correct. Whatever was said or written before the Holocaust has absolutely no relevance to the medinah today. “be=avoinoiseinu horabim”, the Holocaust was a game-changer. And let’s not re-fight the battles of who, when and how. The Seridim of the Holocaust found a refuge in Eretz Yisroel and ,regardless of their philosophical inclinations, recognized that the medinah was here to stay and had to be supported and improved. This is the shittah of the vats majority of chareidm today and all the gedolim of that segment of Yiddishkeit. I am not even talking about the Dati leumi camp.
Living in the US ,it is easy to rant and rave against the medinah- living in Eretz Yisroel, it has become abundantly clear that it is the gift of hakodesh Boruch Huh to our generation. How many jews in israel esposue the extremist (joseph, Itzik,etc) view? A few hundred? A thousand? It is an insignificant part of yidden today.
May we be “zoiche” to build the Bais hamikdosh bimeheru bejomeinu.
rabbiofberlin – There are many hundreds of thousands in Eretz Yisroel itself who are anti-zionists (despite your silly redefinition of making anyone who livesthere into a zionist), aside from the hundreds of thousands in chutz l’aaretz. In fact a majority of Torah Jewry is clearly opposed to zionism.
BS”D
R’ Uriel Zimmer A”H was a chossid of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZY”A and was very close to the Rebbe.
And yes, “zionism” is dead. It has been replaced by vacuuous post-Zionism, in which even an “I-raeli” identity does not matter but rather the goal is to have a good time and do whatever you can so that you yourself can get ahead and have an easy life.
It is also time to be makir tov to the founders of the state for their hard work, and to those who gave up their lives for it.
Imagine when we have a siyum hashas, and we need to reserve the halls, and arrange for the speakers and the transportation, and the tickets and all the myriad details. It takes years to plan one of these. When we have a chasuna, it takes weeks of planning and hard work to insure that everything is taken care of.
We can’t even be masig how hard the founders of the state of Israel worked to set it up. How many world leaders did they have to contact? How many meetings? How many arrangements? We are talking about setting up a country, not a one-night simcha. They needed to set up an army, to work the land, to run wires for electricity and phone, to set up hospitals, to establish an economy so people would have work. You can’t possibly imagine how hard it was for these workers, all for the benefit of the klal.
Finally, the founders were willing to fight and give their lives for their cause, so that the next generation should have a better life.
It is the biggest shanda that we give the founders of the state no credit, when we fill up pages and pages of credits and thanks and acknowledgments in the Daf-Yomi Siyum program guide to the audio people and video people and organizers and caterers and all of the shtadlanim. (I am not in any way minimizing their work, just trying to put in perspective the infinitely more complicated business of setting up a state.)
It is childish already, and goes against the Torah’s fundamental insistence on hakaras hatov to continue to deny the founders of the state the credit that is due them for their unbelievable efforts on behalf of the entire klal. It doesn’t matter what your hashkafah is. The state was founded for the whole klal, and we all benefit, not just Chilonim, not just Modern, not just Litvish, not just Chassidim, not just Ashkenazim. Every single group of Jews benefits.
Thank them for their work, the excuses are ridiculous already. They reflect an immature sore-loser attitude, more than any rational approach. Because I was against the idea to begin with, but I was overruled, I will continue to thumb my nose at your state, even though I am much better off with it.
Time to shake hands.
BS”D
Their “work” led to the secularization and deracination of over a million Jews who they took from their home countries by creating anti-Semitism.
Their “work” causes Jews abroad to suffer anti-Semitism – because of the shlimazel state that can no longer make peace or war and instead endangers its population and does not take definitive steps to end the threat.
Their “work” led to the ugly “I-raeli,” from the rude illegal tourists in US malls hawking defective garbage, to the gangsters in Prague, Budapest and Bucharest who control illegal gambling, to the non-Jews in E”Y who now make it a place where intermarriage can, will and has become rife. E”Y is one of the centers of illegal trafficking in women – Herzl OLBM of course would be very proud but as a Jew, I am ashamed that this is going on in artzeinu hakedoisha.
And all of this is going on because a secular state in E”Y is an abomination that cannot succeed – but if Hashem were to let it fall to the Arabs, Jews, most of whom are tinokois shenishbeu, would be wiped out. If the medine would at least be a proud Jewish state, the goyim would RESPECT us as they did for a short while after 1967 – but the morons who lead it gave the tzoirerim rights instead of kicking them out as they did to Jews after 1948.
What is more, now that Jews are free everywhere but in Iran, we do not need the medine. More Jews are returning to the former Soviet Union than leaving it for E”Y (and hopefully that includes some of the non-Jews as well but I doubt it because they do very well on bituach leumi). South African Jews go to Australia, the UK and the US, and even the occasional Jew who gets out of Iran wants to join his successful and proud brothers in LA and NY, not become a ridiculed “Parsi” in the medine.
Unfortunately, we are stuck with it, and only Moshiach can peacefully dismantle it. That is, unless the oil situation becomes so dire that the Arabs force its dismantlement using the oil weapon.
I am not better off with it. It is a shame and an abomination to me. It had potential “on paper” but it squandered all of the brochos and kedusha of E”Y and instead defiles the holy Land!
Joseph:
If for nothing else, thank them for all the learning they supported throughout the years. Even if they would stop supporting right now and never give another agurah, we have no concept of the schar thay have for supporting tens of thousands of Kollel and Beis Medresh men learning.
To Pashuteh Yid & others:
This does not mean one should support the “Zionist” (Socialist) or “Post-Zionist” (American/European/liberal) ideals. We (as Yidden you are Makir tov to all beings, especially other Yidden) just believe in giving credit where it is due.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.