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With the current makeup of the Supreme Court, Yeshiva University decided the time was right to ask for the legal right to block the club. They’re claiming it violates their First Amendment rights.
The Roshei Yeshiva at RIETS have long opposed the club, but previous efforts to shut it down were blocked by NY courts.
Let’s daven that their request is granted, and the club gets shut down permanently.Considering the current 6-3 conservative majority, its quite likely there will be at least 5 SCOTUS votes supporting the rights of a religiously focused college/university to deny formal recognition of any LGBTQ affinity group while simultaneously avoiding explicit discrimination against individual students.
If the law was that universities are required to have all students bow in front of a cross once a week, would YU require all its students to bow in front of a cross once a week, because — after all — that’s the law?
The case is being litigated.
One should consider whether any private university that received direct and indirect (e.g. student loans, tax exemptions, etc.) is allowed to ban an organization whose advocacy it disapproves of. Could YU ban a “friends of cheeseburgers” club? What about a “Hebrew Christians” club? What about banning a student “Friends of Neturei Karta” or a student group calling for “removal” of Palestinians from Eretz Yisrael.
Could private university ban a group advocating political incorrectness? Could a private, and WOKE, university ban “MAGA” club or a Chabad house? Could a private university ban a student organization that advocates genocide against Jews or the re-enslavement of African Americans? If a faith-sponsored university can ban students for religious reasons, do they risk losing their government funding? What if a university bans certain viewpoints that if done by a public university would raise 1st amendment issues (remember that the first amendment only applies to the government), should the university give up its students’ eligibility for subsidized student loans as well as its tax exemptions (not subject to real property tax, contributions are tax deductible from income tax, etc.).
>>>One should consider whether any private university that received direct and indirect (e.g. student loans, tax exemptions, etc.) is allowed to ban an organization whose advocacy it disapproves of. Could YU ban a “friends of cheeseburgers” club?
YU isn’t looking to ban clubs and the toeva crowd did not sue them for attempting to do so. The toeva crowd sued them for not allowing any school facilities to be used for their meetings and not allowing them to PROMOTE or advertise their clubs existence on school property or use any other type of school resources. YU lost the case due to the sacred status given to toeva people by liberal groups.
Even from a totally secular perspective YU seems correct.
Say you have a (non-Jewish) college. There is frat group that does little other than smoking, drinking beer and partying all night. The school is unhappy with it’s existence and decides to treat it the same way YU wants to treat the toeva clubs. Even from a totally secular perspective shouldn’t they have that right?
Or say you have a group of religious people who made a secular college. There are a group of students who want them to make the school to actively promote beliefs and behavior that are antithetical to their religion (as opposed to just ignoring the students engaged in it) Shouldn’t freedom of religion allow them to refuse to PROMOTE that group?
These clubs will dissolve automatically if there is no attendance. The schools should teach their detriment.
While there may have been justification to teach at YU for parnosa years ago, I don’t understand what heter there is after the clubs began 22 years ago. Rabbi shechter, Rabbi Willig, and Rav Aharon Kahn should have left; let the school be as frei as it wants, and eventually it will cease to exist – let modern kids go to Landers or Ner Yisroel.
>>> I don’t understand what heter there is after the clubs began 22 years ago. Rabbi shechter, Rabbi Willig, and Rav Aharon Kahn should have left
While you can’t understand they of course do…
Why do they need a hetter to continue to teach someone because some toeava people are strong-arming the school?
YU probably wouldn’t hire a Rosh Yeshiva who has no college level secular education but if they did they would have no problem getting resumes from some of the most Yeshivish places…
Who are you to crticize Rav Schechter and these Rabbis ? What is a moderrn kid ? What does that statement mean anyway – why is Ner Yisroel modern ? Arent we are all modern ? Modern definition : relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past.
Ner Yisroel is yeshivish
Avirah,
The Heilege Rebbeim in YU do not need your approval for their being marbitz Torah there and they don’t need to farenfer zich to you either.
When was the last time you walked into the YU Beis Medrash and heard the Kol Torah?
I don’t understand what the heter for Parnossa is , if it would really be assur.
The whole matter of the clubs is blown way out of proportion.
The machlokes about the clubs is good for newspapers but doesn’t have much to do with the students daily life.These are not easy issues. Someone at my (non-Jewish) university once invited one of the famous sonei isroel as a speaker. Jewish students met in advance to advocate for boycott, protest, disrupting the speech. The Rov, a survivor, gave a passionate speech how the words matter, history of Shoah, etc. Then the school President (Rov’s friend) gave an equally patient speech about academic freedom and assured everyone if they come armed with sharp questions and the speaker will evade them, they should be confident that the college community will see through this and no harm will happen. Whatever it was, nobody observed any increase in anti-semitism on campus after that anti-Semite visit. After that president was gone, it is probably worse now with active woke policies, but not due to his position of neutrality.
What is the lesson here – there might be different approaches here. If YU is built for mature students, there might be no harm from allowing whatever opinions are out there. They are already in the middle of NYC with no adult supervision. Do you see students flocking to those clubs and skipping mincha?
That was predictable.
Ner yisroel is a Yeshiva kedoshah; the talmidim are not all yeshivishe. Some are, and some aren’t. Many frum YU boys would be comfortable there.
I didn’t say that a prohibited thing is allowed for parnosa. We allow less than ideal things for parnosa, and several rebbeim justified their presence in YU in those terms, including rav yerucham gorelick.
Shortly after the clubs came out, frum people like rav abba bronspiegel, rav parnas, and others left YU and started Landers in Queens. The kids are basically the same chevra as YU, but the atmosphere is more controlled, and there would never be an LGBT club.
As for rabbi shechter and rabbi willig being accountable; the world outside YU doesn’t consider them gedolim, much less people who we follow blindly. The real hypocrisy here is that YU ideology doesn’t believe in accepting daas Torah or the inability to cast doubt on gedolim… You can’t have it both ways. YU has no problem questioning, for instance, chumros of the brisker rov and seven questioning his mental health r”l, but if you dare question rabbi yoshe ber or rabbi shechter…. It’s a total double standard.
As for the kol torah in the beit midrash; I’ve been there. Some hoys learn. How many of them are learning and not engaging in higher Talmudic criticism? Who knows.
Ever been to BMG? All 5 campuses? It’s a lot more. I’d estimate is that altogether, BMG has about 8 times the amount of students as YU. Especially considering YU is the only place where the graduates of modern schools go to learn, while BMG is the largest of hundreds. Really tells you a lot about the results of MO Chinuch.
>>>Whatever it was, nobody observed any increase in anti-semitism on campus after that anti-Semite visit.
Did you think one visit would cause one? Even (particularly ) the most liberal colleges ban speakers who they don’t agree with their political views.
But lets take a more simple and comparable example to a single speech. Would you be OK with the American Nazi Party forming groups on college campuses all across America
I was just a curious observer of this discussion. That President was not liberal and the speaker was close enough to a Nazi – Farrakhan. I am not trying to argue this or that position, just pointing out that there are different approaches here from the American perspective.
As to Landers college, I think it is great that we are having more different learning institutions. Jewish tradition is to have teachers competing for students.
But please stop counting which school has more Torah learning, this is just unseemly in general, and especially in current circumstances. We have 4 mln American Jews on the way to total assimilation. If some of them can find a place where they can learn according to their level, B’H.
Rav Ahron Kotler refused to set foot into YU even for one of his talmidim’s levaya. Instead, he stayed outside and didn’t come in.
And that was in his time already.
according to Marvin Schick, 2012 blog>
As I was standing outside the home of Rav Shneuer Kotler during shiva on a brutally hot early July night in Lakewood, a car pulled up and two men got out. They opened the back door and virtually carried Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik into the house. He was extremely frail and in declining health. I went inside and heard him say to Rav Malkiel Kotler, “I was a friend of your grandfather, I was a friend of your father and, im yirtzeh Hashem, I will be your friend.”
…
It is known that Rav Aharon did not have a favorable view of Yeshiva University. I was told that in his 1930s fundraising trip here, he gave shiurim at Yeshiva and was not happy about what he saw.
…
shortly after the Second World War a serious effort was made by officials at Torah Vodaath and Chaim Berlin to establish a joint university-level academic program that would take place in a yeshiva setting, the intent being to deter their students from attending Brooklyn College in the evening after the mandatory two sedarim in the Beth Medrash. When Rav Aharon heard of this initiative, he immediately instructed that it be abandoned and it was abandoned.During the fervid 1953 battle over the draft of girls into military service in Israel, Rav Aharon reached out to Rav Soloveitchik, hoping that he would come out publicly against Ben-Gurion’s decree. There was a meeting at Rav Mendel Zaks’ apartment in Manhattan. Rabbi Dov Ber Weinberger drove Rav Aharon to the meeting and he was witness to what happened. …
After more than a half hour of futile effort to get Rav Soloveitchik to publicly oppose gius banos, Rav Aharon came up with the following brilliancy, of course in Yiddish. He said, Bostoner Rav, imagine that instead of the three of us discussing this issue, there were another three who were judging the appropriateness of drafting girls into military service. Instead of the Bostoner Rav, there was your zeyde, Reb Chaim. Instead of the Radiner Rosh Yeshiva, there was your father-in-law, the Chafetz Chaim. Instead of me, there was my father-in-law, Rav Iser Zalman Meltzer. Bostoner Rav, what would your zeyde have said? This masterstroke did not result in a shift in Rav Soloveitchik’s position. He got up and said that he had to leave, “Kletsker Rosh Yeshiva and Radiner Rosh Yeshiva, a gutten tag” and left.in 1954 or 1955, Rav Aharon reached out again to him and enlisted him in efforts to raise funds for Chinuch Atzmai. The high point came at the first Chinuch Atzmai dinner where Rav Soloveitchik made the most remarkable speech I have ever heard. After explaining why though he is a Mizrachist he is helping Chinuch Atzmai, Rav Soloveitchik spoke warmly about Stephen Klein, Chinuch Atzmai’s chairman and the president of Barton’s Candy. He then lavished praise on Rav Aharon, comparing him in elaborate language, first to the Vilna Gaon, then to Rav Akiva Eger and finally to his zeide, Rav Chaim. I was standing directly behind Rav Aharon as Rav Soloveitchik spoke and as each of these comparisons were made, Rav Aharon tugged at Rav Soloveitchik’s jacket with one hand and implored him to stop and with the other hand he pounded on the table and intoned repeatedly, “Das iz nisht emes, das iz nisht emes.” As I looked more closely at Rav Aharon, I saw that he was crying.
When R Kotler was young, yeshiva did not letters from his older sister to reach him. His sister was trying to convince him to go study math at the university. Maybe he felt the danger of alternative calling. My thoughts: this got to have been an acute danger. If the rebbeim did not think that the kid could leave, they would not have withheld the letters.
In our chasiddish yeshivas in my time they held that one should rather go to public school.
Point is, YU was really bad even long before YU got toeiva clubs. The toeiva clubs changed it from terrible to horrendous.
My father a”h graduated YU and Revel as well as Ferkauf. The Roshei Yeshiva were Gedolei Olam.Reb Shimon, The Maitcheter and so many more from the Mir, Radin and Slabodka. We can not leave out Harav Zelmanovitch who was a talmid of the Avnei Nezer. Also the eidem of Reb Moshe Rosen was there as well.This is in addition to the Geonim Soloveitchik. The JSS was run by Rabbi Besdin whose father was Rosh Yeshiva in Chaim Berlin.You may have taynes and you should have taynes.But you need to know the Emes.
For those that are interested, there is a interesting story with Rav Elchonon zatza”l in the Rav Shraga Feivel Mendolowitz book (printed by Artscroll) regarding YU which pretty much puts it in perspective. I don’t recall the exact place in the book but if you are interested enough you will find it.
Avirah,
You criticized three Rebbeim staying at YU because of the infamous club and even said that YU should simply disappear.
You are now pivoting to other criticisms.“I didn’t say that a prohibited thing is allowed for parnosa. We allow less than ideal things for parnosa, and several rebbeim justified their presence in YU in those terms, including rav yerucham gorelick.”
Unless you heard that from Rav Gorelick zatsal , I highly question that parnossa was a reason, if he even needed a reason.
Do you think Rav Gorelick , or any of the other rebbeim, felt that the torah they were teaching was less than ideal?
Again, none of the Rebbeim need to farenfer zich on being Milamed Torah Lamo Yisrael.
They taught Torah to yiddishe kinder who were going to college and enabled them to get an excellent Orthodox Yeshiva education filled with Yiras Shamayim and Ahavas HaTorah.
That is not so different than other Rebbeim who give shiurim in Yeshivas where the Bochurim get a secular education (Landers) or go to secular college at night (Others).
In America, all high schools have an english department where the talmidim learn for a few hours a day.
Is being a 12th grade Rebbe in an American High School less than ideal?Rabbi Yeruchem Gorelick ZT’L was asked what induced him to go work in YU. He said (in Yiddish), “Rabbi JB Soloveichik convinced me that the future of Torah in America depends on YU.” Then he slapped his head, as if to say “What was I thinking?”
ujm,
I don’t believe the story. Doesn’t make sense at all. Nisht the hava amina und nisht the maskana.
Jack, I can put you in touch with one of the people there who heard him say it.
Jack, I’m not pivoting; I’m saying that mima-nafshach; you can’t tell me that it’s untenable to criticize those rabbis and maintain YU’s validity, because that’s a contradiction.
Anyone teaching in a school which condones Bible criticism, has “roshei yeshiva” who openly question krias yam suf, teaches apikorsus in their humanities department, embraces feminism, has many leaders who equate torah and science (norman lamm), and has a LGBT club….yes, they do need to farenfer zich why they are there if they are opposed to such things, which the three i mentioned are on the record as opposing. That has nothing to do with the machlokes about secular studies (now who’s pivoting…) Or the additional machlokes about whether or not high schools should have English. In those matters, gedolim had different opinions and respected one another.
Rav aharon didn’t hold that you can’t be a rebbe in torah vodaas or chaim berlin; he held the rosh yeshivos in those places in extremely high esteem. Not so with YU. He held that even then, they were off the derech in their ideology (he definitely held of, say the meitchiter iluy). Rav shimon was visiting and held it was kedai to teach there. Would he have taught there in our time? Definitely not!
Those issues aren’t just *well, it’s not my opinion, but i respect those who believe it” – and if that is their mentality, then they’re part of the problem (i know for a fact that rav aharon kahn does not think that way, i do not know for sure about the other two, and i do not mean to cast doubt and accuse them of something with absolutely no proof; again, i am not accusing them)
There were orthodox jews who taught at JTS for parnosa. Some rabbis (not many, actually only one that i know of, the lubavitcher rebbe) said it was allowed but forbade it after saul lieberman died. This idea isn’t revolutionary.
As for rav gorelick, i heard it from his son in law. He said that he originally came because of what ujm said, but stayed because he needed parnosa.
Ben – if those rabbonim ran YU, none of these problems would have developed. Instead, belkin, revel, lamm and others ran the place straight into the sitra achra.
Can someone find the famous speech by Rav JB Soleveitchik ZT”L where he criticized the YU administrators for taking government money saying that now the government will have a say on what YU can or cannot do?
Also, I seem to recall an very similar story around the mid 90s where one of the YU schools (I think it was Cardozo) was forced to allow a toeva club to continue.
@Gvmt money was never the issue in YU, it was what the consverdox public though of them.
YU sees this club similar to a support therapy group. We have people practicing therapy in the frum world for various issues that are not the ways of the Torah. There are frum therapists that deal with LGBT issues every day unfortunately. It’s not my derech but did you ever ask one of the YU Roshei Yeshivas personally what they think about it or do you just repeat whatever you read in mishpacha or hear in your shul coffee room. Fact of the matter is if there wouldn’t be YU many of these people would have been forever lost to the secular colleges and by now have married non-Jews. It’s tragic the state where YU is.
” It’s not my derech but did you ever ask one of the YU Roshei Yeshivas personally what they think about it or do you just repeat whatever you read in mishpacha or hear in your shul coffee room”
excellent question. I often ask it here as well on many of the different topics.
Side point, I actually did speak to Rabbi Ahron Soloveitchik zt”l ‘s son Reb Moshe about this and about his father’s response.Nu what did he say?
The name of the group is “yu pride alliance” – that is not a support group to help people NOT do aveiros. It is about being proud of their sinfulness.
If it would be a therapy group dedicated to fighting their yatzer hora, it would be no different than the 12 step groups which cater to similar things – it’s not good to have it out in the open, to advertise it, but it’s not a bad thing either; it has a great purpose.
From the YU pride alliance website: a quote from a member.
“I wish people knew that behind the smiles and rainbow flags, I carry the burden of knowing my decision to be true to myself may cost me my family and the future I always imagined. The lack of LGBTQ+ acceptance leads students to believe there is no other option than to be in a heterosexual relationship. This mindset is toxic and harmful to queer people. The YU Pride Alliance has helped me so much by normalizing the queer experience and letting me know that there is a community that supports me. They showed me that I can have a future as my authentic self.”
>>>Rabbi Yeruchem Gorelick ZT’L was asked what induced him to go work in YU. He said (in Yiddish), “Rabbi JB Soloveichik convinced me that the future of Torah in America depends on YU.” Then he slapped his head, as if to say “What was I thinking?”
So why didn’t he pick himself up and go? He needed parnossa? That is exactly how YU justifies being classified as a secular institution and got themselves into this mess. How was he different than them?
Years ago I used to think that if the Chareidi mosdos were faced with the same dilemma as YU they would stand strong. Today I no longer do. Faced with the dilemmas that YU is facing of (1) needing funding but compromising on values and or (2)Trying to reach as many people as possible to teach Torah but knowing that doing so will also cause a compromise in values many, many Chareidi mosdos (by no means all!!!) would act similarly to YU.
The above is not an endorsement of YU or it’s haksafa in general. I’m just saying that in this specific question it’s not so simple that YU is doing the wrong thing or that it’s critics are so different from what Chazal say that “A thief who doesn’t have what to steal also takes pride in his honesty”
(If you are on government programs but bending the rules don’t come with tainos on YU for what they are doing to get funding)
ujm, avira,
If he did say it in a meaningful way, it was said because of great anivus and self-deprecation.
“let the school be as frei as it wants, and eventually it will cease to exist – let modern kids go to Landers or Ner Yisroel.”
The reason YU still exists is because there is a sizable crowd of people who will not send to Landers (kal vachomer Ner) because it’s too much to the right. Even if the Rabbeim left it will not cease to exist until that crowd either moves to the right or left and there will no longer be a market for YU to cater to.
This thread reminds me of several blind wise men describing an elephant. It seems that most people here, including me, never studied there or know many who did. so, discussion is based on news items or on rumors what gedolim said/thought about it. Maybe, someone can find an actual YU-er and interview him/her?
I can easily see, and some people here mention this also, that the answer may depend on who we are talking about. Maybe R Kotler’s students do not need YU, some others might need Landers. But possibly those who go to modern day schools and public schools are already trained enough to survive that. I know of one family where kids went to a modern school and when they planned to go to YU, their classmates looked down at them as they all were going to Ivies.
I praise YU because it may be the only Yeshiva that does not take government funds for its Litvishe Toyreh and follows Daas Torah without modification . The RIETS is free of government control. period. That position and Mesorah defines the Toyreh at YU.It is free of chesed לאומים.Yasher Koach to the Rabonim and Geonim such as Harav Shechter and Rav Simon and so many others who are an inspiration for the young generation that gadlus in Torah is possible in America.
For the record, toevos are (for men) worse than marrying a non jewish woman. Permitting it so that people stay in a Jewish(?) Community is no different than allowing intermarriage to keep Jews in the community; it’s actually worse, and any community that is accepting of such couples is not a jewish, Torah community. It’s just reform. And not the reform of decades ago.
Ben… Are you being sarcastic? YU is the only”yeshiva” that is government subsidized, and which has massive endowments. The government doesn’t have any input in litvishe yeshivos…this whole thread is about how the government is trying to contr YU, given that they receive government funding and don’t consider themselves a religious entity.
This has probably been said before but when writing Yiddish or Hebrew please translate so people (me) can understand what you are saying.
Thank you so much!!
What Gedolim, DaMoshe? There are none there. Sure, there are still a few kosher rabbis there, despite all the horrendous things otherwise, much like Jewish Theological Seminary had some kosher rabbis in the early 20th century (the same rabbis, in fact, that were affiliated with the Orthodox Union.) But Gedolim? No, sir.
And before you get all bent out of shape over being told this truth, think about the fact that you yourself offer no respect or recognition of any “Gedolim” at YCT. Just as your justified in disrespecting YCT, others can similarly say so regarding YU.
Much like rabbi kook, where haskama of a person assumes the one giving it knows all the info, why don’t you ask rabbi bender if he thinks that equating torah and science is a “different derech”, or promoting feminism, or having a rosh Yeshiva who questioned krias yam suf in class, or rabbi shechters idea that you can sacrifice Jewish lives on the altar of zionism to protect the “nations life force”
Go ahead. He probably just thinks that they’re into secular studies and believe in having a Jewish state.
Damoshe
I beleive you have it wrong
First some calrification “YU” or Yeshiva University is a n umbrella term it includes several fifferent Colleges/graduate schools
including Stern College for women
Yeshica College
Sy sims school of buisness
Cardoza law school
Einstein medical school (until 2015)
Wurzweiler School of Social Work
Belz School of music
among othersThe Roshei Yesvhiva are not the Rosehi Yeshiva of “YU” tehy have nothing to do with Cardoza, nor Sy sims etc they are Roshei Yeshiva of RIETS
Yesvhva colege did not have such a club. Some of the Graduate schools do (Cordoza was the first whcih is what R’ Gifter Z”l publicly protested).
YU “pride alliance” recetly sued that their club shgould be recognized by the UNGERGRADUATE shools including YC, thus far they have NOT been recognized, hence the lawsuit
from their website ” The YU Pride Alliance, aiming to provide resources … to undergraduate students on campus, has been fighting for club approval and were rejected three times. After the third rejection, the YU Pride Alliance submitted a lawsuit against YU.”YU is fighting back, but again the Yeshiva never had such a club. Of course the Roshei Yeshiva oppose the club at any YU affiliate icnluding Cordoza, but they arent the Roshei Yeshiva of Cordoza.
If I have any of the above wrong. Please let me know
Yserbius
It is known as the “I see ghosts” speech see Commentator repring in 2019
“Rav Soloveitchik Decries Secularization of Yeshiva; Students Protest at Chag Hasemicha”UJM
Love the Rav Gorelick story, made me laugh at loud.
Though it is probaly Assur to beleive that a Talmud chocham or any frum yifd for that matter compromised their beleifs for “parnossa”ubiq, how do Orthodox Yidden teach in Conservative Jewish schools?
Also, could you imagine RIETS being under the umbrella of the Mennonites? And the Roshei Yeshiva of RIETS saying we protested other Mennonite subsidiaries worshipping getshkes but we have no control over what they do? If not, why would anyone think being under the YU umbrella, with YU condoning and funding many aspects of outright kefira, any different?
UJM
“how do Orthodox Yidden teach in Conservative Jewish schools?”
you’d need to ask them“Also, could you imagine RIETS being under the umbrella of the Mennonites?”
no, why?
” And the Roshei Yeshiva of RIETS saying we protested other Mennonite subsidiaries worshipping getshkes but we have no control over what they do?”
I don’t really understand, why would that be a problem?
“If not, why would anyone think being under the YU umbrella, with YU condoning and funding many aspects of outright kefira, any different?”
so its not different. nu nu
Damoshe wrote “Yeshiva University decided the time was right to ask for the legal right to block the club”
I don’t think this is correct. In fact the reverse is true, the current case was begun by the group suing YU.
In fact I think his entie post has it wrong “Let’s daven that their request is granted, and the club gets shut down permanently.” We can daven for that but I don’t think that is waht the lawsuit is about. YU is not fighting “the club.” that has been there that was “long opposed”
The Roshei Yeshiva can still be wrong for staying at RIETs when it umbrella organization supported such clubs, I never commented one way or the other on that. It is hard to imagine RIETS as a subsidiary of Menonite University, though if it were I wouldn’t have a problem if other subsidiaries of the university bowed to getchkes. If you do you do you don’t need to like it
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