The Importance of Yiddish

BS”D

I am a citizen of the country which pays for your medine as well as a member of a community which sends much in moral and monetary support to it. Baal hameah hu baal hadeah (ver hot de maya hot de daya ven iz kim tzi gelt).

More importantly, the incompetence and indecisiveness of its memsheles zadoin jeopardizes my life and the lives of many Jews all over the world.

This anti-Semitism got out of hand when people saw that the schlimazel medine can neither achieve decisive victory nor make lasting peace. They also realized that the state is just exacerbating Muslim violence because it cannot make any proper decisions to do its share to end it one way or the other.

And why is that? Because a non Torah entity in Eretz Yisroel is as fitting as a loaf of bread on the Seder table!

A 600KiloBear cannot decide which he prefers–simply to condemn the State for Zionism–or to condemn the State for not be assertive enough in its nationalism. I thoroughly enjoy this little problem.

I am also a citizen of the US. If you don’t like your tax money paying for Israel’s defense needs (which is by far the recipient of most US aid), lobby your congressperson. I’m sure you can find others who agree with you, and may you enjoy their company. As far as your community’s support- the vast majority of Hareidim support only Hareidi institutions. While Chabad does do other community work, it is one of very few Hareidi groups that does so. That still is not comparable to dedicating years of your life in National Service, and it does not come close to comaparing to putting your life on the line in the IDF.

Again, if you think that the government is incompetent or evil–we live in a democracy, and the government can be changed. Of course, there is that small matter of who gets to participate. Luckily, the law as it currently stands ensures that only those who are citizens, and are in the country on election day, may vote.

Yes, there are limitations to what a person who did not serve in the IDF (or do sherut leumi, in the case of women) can work at. But those limitation are becoming less and less. At one time, one could not be hired by the govt (which controlled many jobs), and many other sectors.

Today, there are few sectors in which someone who has not served can work. Many of them are security-related, of course.

However, in many cases, someone who has served will get preference over someone who has not (all other qualifications being equal). Again, this depends on the job sector. In private business, one can hire who one likes, as long as the person is a citizen or legal resident with the correct type of visa. Many private businesses will still prefer people who have served, of course. But by no means all.

{Note on military service: I find the situation strange. For years, the only men who did not serve were the hareidim and those with criminal records. (There were times when the IDF would not take soemone who did not finish high school or the equivalent.) During the time of Raful’s tenure as Chief of Staff, he instituted the program of “noar Raful” in which even youths with criminal records were drafted. Raful’s theory was that the IDF’s job, in addition to defending the country, was to provide a basis for socialization–so that people from all sectors of society could meet each other and interact. Subsequent Chiefs of Staff have felt differently–that the IDF’s only job is to defend the country, and anything else simply distracts form the main effort. Currently, we are somewhere in the middle between those 2 views, but leaning toward Raful.

So the major sector of non-servers was the hareidim. Then, with the rise of the “me generation”, one saw disaffected childern of the Israeli artisitc elite, who avoided service, and were proud of it. There were not many of these folks. The most famous is Aviv Gefen, who is a musician. This kind of legitimized nonservice in the eyes of many Israelis. However, they are still a small minority, and most Israelis still regard nonservice with disdain-whoever is not serving–Hareidi or disaffected youth–it does not matter.}

As far as tax exemptions go, of course they are not framed as “for frum people”. How can a bureaucrat tell who is frum? So the laws (some national, some municipality) are framed according to number of children, or if the father learns in kollel (the latter, of course, limiting the discounts to frum people.)

REgarding bituach leumi–those frum folks (not all chareidim by any means) that refuse to pay do so on ideological grounds. No other sector gets that privilege. This may be because the govt does not want to take the trouble to fight it.

Bear position on Israel (or EY) is far to the right of that of Agudah and even of Satmar and dangerously close to the Nut Kases that visited Yimach Shemo.

Perhaps we are obligated to tear Kri-ah when we hear such denigration of the Jewish Yishuv???

Mezonos Maven posted: “Actually Bear’s position on the State is pretty tame, slightly right-of-center.

And from his comments it is obvious he is a supporter of the Jewish Yishuv (?????? ????). It is the Non-Jewish “Yishuv” that he, like all Torah Jewry, opposes.”

So Mezonos Maven, by posting that ALL Torah Jewry opposes the Yishuv, exculdes all of the Mamlachti Dati, Mizrachi movement, and everyone involved from Rav Kalisher on down from being included in Torah Jewry.

I wonder if your exclusionary idea of Torah Jewry is shared by your Rabbanim. If so, perhaps it is time for a complete break between Hareidi Judaism and MO Judaism. You go your way, we’ll go ours. You learn your way, we will learn our way. You support your institutions–and we will support ours.

A complete divorce. The only problem with that is that, as with any divorce, the mizbeach cries.

Mezonos Maven,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Don’t expect me to share it.

sharer, That is precisely what I stated. There is no such thing as “Chareidi”. Not then, and not now. See my above remarks.

Mezonos Maven, you may think that “There is no such thing as “Chareidi”. Nevertheless, a large group of people identify themselves as such today. Whether that stream of Judaism is the best representation of Har Sinai is the point of contention.

My original point to you was your assertion that all Torah Jews oppose the Yishuv.

First of all, you call it the “non-Jewish Yishuv”. Halachically, the leaders and the majority of inhabitants of this country are just as much part of clal Yisrael as anyone alive today.

Your other implication is that nobody who does support the State can be a Torah Jew. I hardly need bother posting that the chutzpah of this is enormous–who are you to say that someone is not a Torah Jew? Who set you up as a shofet of people who you do not know? Tell me, what do you think of Rav Kook? Was he not a Torah Jew? How about Rav Ovadia Yosef? Rav Shear-Yishuv Cohen?

Bear: We. the faithful in EY rely on the land vomiting out those which it can’t abide. All that remain, we are dan lkaf zchus that there is a purpose in them being here. As to your disdain for the spoken language, it too has been zocheh. I was taught by my rebbes to never ignore the Mussar of the Neviim, and though Novi is not a strong suit of the yeshivish velt, we are exposed to it through the Haftoros. One little book we read on YK is Yonah, who when asked ‘1) what is your profession, 2) from where have you come 3) What is your ‘medina’ and 4) of what nation are you, had one succinct and awsome answer: IVRI ANOCHI! AND I SERVE YOU KNOW WHO!

BS”D

My position on the State is that of Reb Amram Bloy ZYA (or more technically of R’ Uriel Zimmer AH who was a Lubavitcher as well). Any morning that I need my alarm, it plays Hashem Hu Malkeinu and I sing it quite often on Shabbos and Yom Tov. (Reb Amram would in no way would have sanctioned the actions of those who call themselves Neturei Karta today). I will not face the flag of the state nor will I touch one, and there is a singer I will not listen to (not that I enjoy his style anyway) because he has recorded the anthem of the state on an album.

At no time did I ever believe the state had any intrinsic value, but living in Europe and seeing how Jews the world over are suffering because of its blunders, I have come to realize that the state must be dismantled.

I also know all too well that at this point the only one who can dismantle it safely with no further damage to the lives and well-being of Jews is Moshiach. Sadly, I fear that if he is delayed chas vesholom, and Obama is re-elected (and I do believe that barring Moshiach he will be re-elected because of the indolence of the average American), a one state solution will be imposed on the medine and Jews will flee in droves.

And why? Because, like the kingdoms of Yoravam ben Navot and Ahav and Izevel, the tzionish medine has no right to rule in Eretz haKoidesh. Hashem did give Yidden a chance to bring kedusha back to the land, but by and large it is a mamleches zadoin which has destroyed more Yiddishe neshomos than it has saved Yidden.

For me the blame lies with Roosevelt the rosho YMS, because had he allowed Jews to enter the US there would have been no need for the medine and in no way would it have been allowed to form. The tzioinim and all who participate in the government, including the charedi parties on anything above the municipal level, are tinoikos shenishbeu, and they are truly like tinoikois because they are as kids playing country the way kids play house or school.

Rav Kook was an odom godol who made a very big mistake. That is assuming that certain quotes attributed to him are spurious, which is what I believe. If those quotes are true, then he was more of a Carlebach free love type than a true rav beYisroel, but there is nothing except a few out of context quotes to suggest that this was the case. Instead, I believe that he simply could not foresee that the very ideology of the “pioneers” (more like oisvorfen) would lead to events such as stirring up anti-Semitism abroad, to say nothing of the forced secularization in the maabarot, the arrival of non-Jews from the FSU, etc, etc, etc.

We cannot be like all the peoples. We cannot be influenced by Western nationalism because we are not a Western nation. Without Torah, we are not a nation and any attempt to form a nation of Jewish people without Torah is a toeva, especially when that attempt is made in the Land of Israel.

The medine is a bastard child of the haskalah, not a dovor shebikdusha. Its institutions are pure, unadulterated sitra achra.

Finally, while Reb Amram Bloy ZYA is turning in his grave because of the nuts who usurped the name Neturei Karta as they visited Mad Mahmoud, at the end of the day, who armed terrorists in the “Balestinian Authority”? Yisroel Dovid Weiss? Nope. Ahron Cohen? Nope. Moshe Ber Beck? Nope. Those three clowns together perhaps managed to donate two pairs of torn gottkes and Beck’s old pajama bottoms to the Gaza refugee camps last time they visited.

So how about the government of the state? Yep.

Meshuggener Moishe Hirsch of the Ohel Hagar gang received $50K or so from Arafat YMS. That of course is unacceptable to put it mildly.

But even as their so called policeman carried out acts of terror on innocent Jews, the medine sent the PA $100 million. So who is the rosho? Whacko Hirsch who successfully schnorred money from the tzoirer YMS or the government which SENT THEM money so they could buy arms?

Hirsch, whose credentials are said to include serving as the Purim Rov of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin years ago, is as crazy as a fox (or was until he became uber ubotul); he is one of the inspirations for the Admou”r meCreedmoor.

The memsheles zadoin is crazy as a lemming, so suicidal as to arm its own enemies in exchange for worthless promises.

Mezonos Maven wrote:

“starwolf, Once again you completely missed the boat. Sure, society by its imposition identifies some people as Chareidi. And as a matter of verbal convenience some of those people refer to themselves as such. But they are not a “stream of Judaism”. They are merely the folks who follow the traditions laid forth at Har Sinai.

I know this is a painful fact for those who don’t follow these traditions, and they thus deny this truth. But be that as it may, as painful for them as this fact is, it shall be spoken. “

You make the claim that only anti-State people are Torah Jews. Was that really your opinion?

Now, I assume that you mean the people who identify themselves as Hareidim. Again, this is self-identification.

So what makes them “Torah Jews” by your definition, as opposed to Modern Orthodox or Mizrachi?

What makes them (in your opinion) the true inheritors of the traditions of Har Sinai?

Is it: anti-Zionism?

their mode of dress?

their self-isolation from the rest of their people?

Their reliance on their Rabbinical authority for opinions on every issue?

Their refusal of secular education?

Refusal to educate women?

How anti-state do you need to be to be a “Torah Jew”? Do you have to go as far as A600KiloBear (following the shita of Rav Blau, for example) or can you also take money form the state even though you do not fully participate in its institutions (Belz would be a good example)?

I of course realize that all of the above do not apply to all those who consider themselves Chareidi. I just want to know what MM’s definition of those Torah Jews are. I also want to get an answer to the question posted above: in his opinion, can a Zionist be a Torah Jew? Is, for example, Rav Ovadia Yosef a Torah Jew?

A600KiloBear posted his opinion on the subject. While of course I do not agree with it, it was interesting to read.

MM, I picke Rav Yoseef for a reason. Now how about my other examples?

I do not see how you reconcile your definition in the above post with your earlier statement.

Thank you for the clarification. You are entitled to your opinion.

In one of the other threads, A600KiloBear and I were discussing Hareidi vs Modern Orthodox hashkafot. He predicted, IIRC, that “my children would be Hareidi”. I assume that he meant because of demographic trends in Israel (and in the US).

One major difference in the MO versus the Hareidi hashkafot is that of mutual tolerance. As you posted (if I may paraphrase) “all Torah Jewry” opposes Zionism. This implies that, in your opinion, a Zionist cannot be a Torah Jew.

One reason for the demographic shift from Modern Orthodoxy/Mizrachi Judaism to Hareidi Judaism is educational. Over the years, OM schools have been employing Hareidi teachers. This was done for 2 reasons–the lack of emphasis on teaching in the MO sector we simply didn’t have enough people who wanted to go into those fields; and the philosophy of “what can it hurt? We are all Torah Jews here”. We see the result in the demographic shift.

Well, we were slow to see it, but it is sinking in. There are now major changes in the educational hashkafa of the Mamlachti Dati movement in Israel, and one can hope to see it in the MO folks in the US as well. First of all, huge numbers of young mamlachti-dati people are going into education, at high school, middle school, and elementary school levels. They now see this as of paramount importance, which of course it is. Second, many paerents of children are serving notice to the mamlachti-dati school system that we do not want Hareidi teachers in our schools. This si because we believe that the attitudes that they teach are, in many cases, exactly those expressed by Mezonos Maven–that a Torah is incompatible with Zionism/Modern Orthodoxy.

Of course, the Hareidim consider this unfair, but they can hardly complain since they have never exactly welcomed teachers of any hashkafa other than their own into their schools.

So what is the net result? One of them is much less employment for Hareidi women. Teaching is one of the primary occupations permitted them, and the Mamalachti Dati schools were a major source of employment to them. This is now drying up. Will this increase the poverty in the hareidi sector? Sure–and I don’t think that that is a good thing. But I do not wish people from that sector teaching my children.

Israeli religious schools also employ Rabbanim, and the story above goes for them as well. I do not want Hareidi Rabbanim coming to give shiurim at my childrens’ schools–and I am far from alone in that opinion. Many of us now understand why our population is shrinking and the Hareidi population is growing–and it is not only birth rates.

I am beginning to hear similar talk from my friends and relatives in the MO communities in the US. And since those schools are private, the shift to exclusively MO teachers should be even easier.

To those who ask if we are afraid of exposure to Hareidi ideas, I reply that we are adopting the successful Hareidi strategy of emphasizing our own hashkafa. Whether or not it will influence demographics remains to be seen.

As far as religious values, I believe that the mamlachti/dati/Mizrachi/Modern Orthodox hashkafa is far better than that of the Hareidi one (else I would not be what I am) so we have nothing to lose by this.

As far as economics goes, the mamlachti/dati sector of society is not affected, except that more of our own are employed in the schools. Not a bad thing at all.

And as far as the Hqareidi sector goes, well, their own attitudes have brought this about. Why would we send our children to schools that employ teachers who teach that we are not Torah Jews?

Bear, I suggest you learn some humility fast. I have some other choice ideas from the novi why and what the Jews in Europe feel and felt, but you have excused yourself of serious conversation with your attack on Rav Kook.

MM- I do not think that the educational problem that I brought up is the primary reason, but it is one of the reasons.

Nor do I agree with A600KiloBear that the primary reason was the disengagement from Aza. This change preceded the disengagement. As far as the disengagement embittering RZ people: while a great many disagreed with it, the vast majority accepted it. The threatened “revolt” of RZ officers and soldiers never materialized. Yes, several “hilltop youth” resolved not to serve, but let’s just say that they are not exactly considered “grade-A material” by the IDF in the first place.

Somehow I doubt that the “older, established” folks who supported settlement in Aza and are disappointed by the disengagement turn to Chareidi philosophy as a remedy. Chardali? Perhaps–but the operative part of that includes “dati leumi” which means service in the IDF etc.

What makes a person Chareidi? The clothing? Who cares about the style of dress? (Spoken like a true RZ, I know.)

The primary reason for the shift are the birthrates; the numbers there are difficult to ignore.

A600KiloBear is correct when he posts that “MO young people do not go into chinuch in the US”–at least, currently. Yet, things change, and I know several young people who are doing exactly that. Perhaps things will change there, perhaps not.

As far as Hareidim succeeding financially–I certainly hope so. Unlike others, I do not say that any hashkafa other than my own is “not Torah Jewry”. Nor do I wish upon them poverty, lack of financial success, or anything else. That does not mean that I see supporting the institutions condemning my hashkafa as my responsibility, nor do I think that such teachers should be employed in my children’s schools.

And as far as the comparison between Teaneck and Yerushalayim–I think not. We still see large numbers of RZ youth in IDF induction centers, asking to go into all-volunteer infantry units. The RZ schools are full, and Universities are full of RZ students in every field–some of them including a half day of kollel along with their University studies. (By the way, these programs are stock-full).

MO has certainly produced our share of Rabbanim, the fact that certain people do not see them as Gdolim is not our problem.

Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Amital are just a few examples. Going further back, Rav Kook, Rav Kalisher.

Where do MO go when we need help? The same places that all Israelis go-

Hadassah Hospital, Shaarei Tzedek, MADA, etc etc. Do we use Yad Sarah? Sure. We also support Yad Sarah–form individual contributions, to paying for services, to huge government support. If you think for a minute that Yad Sarah is supported by Hareidim exclusively, you are completely divorced from reality.

And A600KiloBear’s statement that “If we lived according to Torah in EY, we would not need a state, nor would we have a fight with the Arabs.” defies belief. Sure. Right. There was no killing of Jews in E”Y (or anywhere else before the rise of Zionism. The rise of Arab nationalism was only because of the rise of Zionism. Anything else you want to blame on Zionism? The Shoah? How about Chmielnitzki?

As far as girls who do sherut leumi, more and more communities rely upon them to help teach, work with disabled children, etc. And as for the ones who do serve in the IDF (religious or secular) –plenty of them risk their lives as well. Certainly the opening of more tafkidim for girls has guaranteed that their contribution to the security to the state and people of Israel only rises. And your referring to Hareidim is laughable–putting themselves on the line indeed. Tell that to the solders who spend their time guarding Hareidi towns and the roads leading to them.

The fact that you come to Israel and only see malls does not mean that that is the only thing here. For that, I truly feel sorry for you–I have no other way to put it. In any event, if you find the medina such a terrible place, I am glad for you that nobody forces you to live here and see this “terrible” place day-to-day. Enjoy the Ukraine–paradise on earth–with such a history of welcoming the Jews.

starwolf, Are you seriously postulating Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Amital are on the same caliber as the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Elyashiv, etc.? I can’t believe you are that deluded. Rav Kalisher wasn’t a zionist.

It is interesting to note that the true Gedolei Yisroel are recognized as such across the board.

And, yes, aside from riling up the Arabs, the zionist take much responsibility for what transpired during the holocaust, as has been documented on this very forum amongst many other places.

And the Torah scholar does more to hold up the safety of Klal Yisroel and the world, than any other person.

BS”D

Moshe Hirsch was Purim Rov in Chaim Berlin. Maybe he was in Lakewood as well. He and MAF clearly just do what they do (well, MAF is retired) to get attention and a few bucks from whoever and wherever.

This past year there were more Jews coming to Ukraine from EY than vice versa. It has been that way in more prosperous and larger Russia for almost a decade now. Anyone who leaves here for EY is doing so temporarily, usually to learn because he can’t get a visa to the US where he would rather learn. Otherwise, you have a few starry eyed idealists who usually come running back or move on to Germany – or losers, often not halachically Jewish, who are going for welfare. Even a couple of retirees I know here came back from there because they had nothing to live for there.

Enjoy your economic bubble. I lived through three bubble busts already, but all were in places with far more of an economic base than the medine. The medine just muddles through, has a boom-bust cycle that leaves far more people down than up even when the bust ends, and is a net exporter of trained, skilled, enterprising people.

It is only a few starry eyed Americans who still believe as you do. Even many RZ are fed up with their broken dream.

I have no more time to waste on this thread which is just a rehash of 1000 similar threads, and this one was supposed to be about Yiddish. Still, my last words here will be in loshon hakoidesh:

Hashem Hu Malkeinu. Beshitas hakofrim ein anu makirim.

Without yiddish you’d be lost on rosh hashana. You wouldnt know what food is paired up with what yehi ratzon.