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Sam – “but who cares”
You seemed to care very much a few hours ago.
And what’s with you and Rav Dovid Cohen’s children?
Does Rav Dovid Cohen speak in Loshan Hakodesh to his children? Of course not.
My Rav speaks Yiddish in his home to his family and children. So what’s your point?
And it doesn’t speak well of anyone that belittles a sefer written by an Eesh Tzadik, a Talmud Chochem and Rav and Posek in our community from before the time most people in the CR were born.
NO, he speaks to them in beautiful, articulate, grammatically correct ENGLISH.
Cherrybim, the quote attributed to me wasn’t said by me.I never questioned Rav Dovid Cohen Shlita’s status as a poseik. Please double-check the author of that post. It wasn’t me. I respect his opinion on yiddish even if it disagrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L’s and my rebbe.
I wish it were true. Below is the entire post:
Jothar
Member
So Rav Dovid Cohen wrote an entire book about Yiddish being a holy language, and never discusses sources or even if it’s a Mitzvah? A real poseik never takes anything for granted. He always looks at the sources. so I ask you, what are the sources? Hoisen?
I’m not denying that there are wonderful Yiddish phrases that revel a Jewish heart that formed the language. There are wonderful phrases in Aramaic and Hebrew too.
Posted 8 months ago #
Yiddish, Yiddish, I told you before that Yiddish might be important in New York but here other places people who speak Yiddish are the least frum ones, Please explain.. Is it the languague or the way a person is suppose to carry himself, to learn torah, Yiddish could be a very beautiful languague and remind you of your grandparents but Torah above all is the most important thing, that is my humble opinion.
When the Eastern Europeans started immigration to Israel the Jewish inhabitants of the land, who were Samech Tet-nikim, called them “Vusvusim”–because they could not understand a word of the spoken language of the land–and replied vus? vus? to any question put to them.
Jothar
Member
So Rav Dovid Cohen wrote an entire book about Yiddish being a holy language, and never discusses sources or even if it’s a Mitzvah? A real poseik never takes anything for granted. He always looks at the sources. so I ask you, what are the sources? Hoisen?
Cherry: I have to agree with Jothar. He never said Rav Cohen is not a a real poseik. He is just asking a question. There is an implied syllogism there:
A real poseik looks at sources.
Rav Cohen is a real poseik
Therefore Rav Cohen looks at sources.
Now, Jothar wants to know what are those sources.
It is precisely due to the unique holiness of Yiddish that R’ Nosson Adler and R’ Chaim Volozhiner, among others, spoke strictly in Loshon Hakodesh on Shabbos, and never in Yiddish. Maybe they did not wish to have lashon Amalek heard at least one day of the week?
Cherrybim, that wasn’t meant as an insult to Rav Dovid Cohen Shlit”a.People, when challenged for a source to the mitzvah of Yiddish in that thread, couldn’t come up with anything more solid than “Rav Dovid Cohen wrote a book” and something related to “hoisen”. Nobody seemed to have read the book or known anything about it other than a vague phrase. I meant it that someone should please read his book and tell me what his sources were, since nobody came up with any real sources. I NEVER meant to say he wasn’t a real poseik, chas veshalom. I meant that he WAS a real poseik, and would undoubtedly have sources if he actually meant to pasken it was holy, which I doubted.
Further iyun has revealed that he wrote a book on divrei aggada, and mentioned lashon hakodesh sources for Yiddish phrases. He NEVER paskened that it was holy, and one gets a mitzvah for speaking it, unless I’m completely mistaken. I have been trying to get hold of that book to double-check but have not found anyone who owns it. If you can post translations from his hakdamah I would be very grateful. I want to be sure that he didn’t pasken it was actually holy.
I do believe Yiddish is holy when it’s sung by Lipa 🙂
Jothar
There is a very interesting source for the word Parve. It’s probably derived from lishkas beis naparva, wherein the Cohen Gadol was in neither bigdei zahav, nor in bigdei lovon. Thus, although used in Yiddish, it’s actually a Mishnaic Hebrew term. It isn’t Yiddish, besides, it is used in English, as well.
Then there is the heiliger kugel! While many people, especially those who did not live in Europe, nor speak any European languages, claim that its origin is from “KeUgol”, meaning round or ball shape, the origin is German, indeed. Kuegel is German for round shaped object. Why need the elaborate explanation that it’s LIKE a round, when it simply means that, without Kaf hadimyon. The same goes with cholent, or chulent, or whatever ingredients one wishes to overcook. Its origin is from Provancal challet, mentioned in books over the centuries, both Jewish and not. It is not derived from “SheLon”, as in stayed on the stove overnight. Lina is actually not a halachic cooking term, anyhow.
Other than tedious explanations trying to tie Loshon Hakodesh origins for distinctly Yiddish words, there is myriad terms that do come from TNa”CH, Gemara, Midroshim, and those are beautiful, as are some untranslateable Yiddish expressions.
With all that said, the kedusha lies with the people who speak it, not with the language itself.
Yiddish is on a higher plane then other languages, such as Chinese and English, but it is very evident from my posts that Yiddish is not halachic kadosh but rather a respected and exalted form of speech since it incorporates Jewish biblical, historical and cultural experience from the beginning of time.
ladino, has incorporated Jewish biblical, historical and cultural experience from the beginning of time, so it is very evident that it is not halachic kadosh but rather a respected and exalted from of speech.
Yiddish is as holy as cold cuts on rye with a pickle on the side….
Cherrybim, if there’s no halachic nafka mina, then “mosar Yiddish min ha’English ayin”.
Ah, but those Poilishe flomen!!!
FOR NOW ON: in this thread you may only post in the language of yiddish, this is officially the last english post in this thread
jothar, fashtaish yiddish?
FOR now on? FASHTAISH?
This isn’t Yiddish, English, or even Yinglish, it’s gibberish.
I finally laughed in this thread.
sammygol, de vurt “farshtaist” is a vurt in yiddish.
Shmeel – Dee rets Yeedish vee a goi.
It surely is; and what does that have to do with what you wrote before?
cherrybin, er redt vi a yid, uber shrabt vi a goy.
There’s a reason this thread is in the “humor and entertainment” section. Thank you Ktzoys for the milsa debedichusa. Now let’s get back to REAL mitzvos.
Ana madbera aramis- the “lishna de’ima!”
I agree that there is a certain ta’am to Yiddish, and I always wished that I could speak and understand it better than I do. (Ich farshtay a bisel, uber nisht zeir gut.) But I have trouble with the schools (in which most students do not come from Yiddish speaking homes) insisting on teitching in Yiddish. I live in a community where ALL the girls schools teitch Chumash in Yiddish through 5th grade, so it’s not like I had a choice where to send my girls. Some of my girls were are not very good at languages, and this really hampered their ability to understand what was being taught, and was a big shtuch to their self-confidence. To be honest, they actually teitch into Yiddish and then English, but for someone who has trouble with languages this can be very disconcerting and is hard to follow along (even if they are not held responsible for the Yiddish).
When I questioned the school’s policy, I was told that this is how Rav ….. held – Rav ….. was niftar over 45 years ago (when Yiddish was still spoken in most homes)! Does anyone bother to ask if this still applies?!
Ironically, when my oldest boy started yeshiva, there were one or two boys yeshivas in the community that teitched straight into English, and my husband insisted on sending him to one of those, based on Rav Yaakov ztz”l’s opinion that talmidim should be taught in the language they are most comfortable in. (I was actually worried that for boys it is necessary to learn Yiddish, but B”H my son is now in Bais Medrash in a very prominent yeshivah, and his love of learning was not compromised by having to struggle to understand what was being taught.)
I think it is a very nice idea to teach Yiddish, but it should be taught as a separate subject, so that if a student has trouble with it, it does not interfere with their comprehension of Chumash or Gemara.
TorahMom: First of all, welcome to the CR! Enjoy!
Secondly, I agree with you wholeheartedly. What a common sense point of view! Yiddish is nice to know, but if this is not a language which a person is familiar why link it to comprehension of such an important subject? If you want to require the students to learn it then teach it as a separate subject.
You learn Yiddish to be able to understand the German rock song that starts with “Juden, Juden, kommt nach hause”
yiddish should be a language that connects all yidden. one of the reason Hashem took us out of mitzrayim is because we didnt change our language.
Goody,
SHOULD? Are you advocating teaching the Sefardim Yiddish, so that YOU can be connected to them? There actually IS one language that has always united the Jewry – that is the same tongue in which Hashem Yisborach spoke to us at Har Sinai, in which Moshe Rabeinu wrote the Torah, and in which we say our daily tefilos.
Not having changed our language certainly doesn’t mean HAVING adopted midieval German, inserting few juicy Hebrew phrases therein. Interestingly, at the time Yiddish was spoken by the Ashkenazi Jewry, it was exactly the same tongue that the gentiles were using. Just because we never updated its vocabulary and syntax, it doesn’t mean that its origins had anything Jewish about them, not unlike taking on the dress of Polish nobility. At the time, it was a gentile dress, and only NOW it looks so, oy, freem.
there are a lot of holy Jews who are not Yiddish speaking and never will be. Hebrew is what unites us not yiddish. Lashon Hakodesh
Goody613, Rav Moshe ZT”L says that Yiddish, which was known as “lashon Ashkenaz” (IE, the Germanic tongue)in all the seforim hakedoshim until very recently, was no different than Arabic or Spanish which became Ladino. He actually asks, how could the Jews speak Spanish, Arabic, Germanic (which evolved into yiddish) if the Jews didn’t change their language in mitzrayim? He answers that that was only when the Jews had no other distinguishing features. In other words, Yiddish IS A VIOLATION of “lo shinu es leshonam”, as it was the local Germanic tongue isntead of Hebrew or Aramaic.
Yiddish smidish, the sepharadim are gonna start saying that areibic is also holy(even if its arab language and yiddish the polish used to speak it)hebrew is what really unites us!!!
NY Mom: Thanks for the welcome. I’ve actually been a lurker for a looong time (about a year). I really enjoy reading different points of view on various subjects, but rarely feel strongly enough about any to comment myself. This one I couldn’t resist, since it caused a lot of problems for 2 of my daughters. I believe that it can make a huge difference to many students (both boys and girls) as to whether or not they take an interest in Limudei Kodesh. I believe both my daughters who had trouble with Yiddish lost out on a lot of hashkafah that is taught through Chumash, because they often just tuned out since it was so hard for them to understand.
BS”D
Shygetz Aross actually comes from Jewish market traders in Spain. When rice with an insect problem was found, they would mark it “Sheketz Arroz” (arroz is rice in Spanish and sheketz is of course an unclean creature) in Hebrew characters so that they would know not to sell it to Jews. Later, the phrase was used to mean that an unwanted guest, such as a thief or moiser, was entering the market, and it was shouted at such characters to warn them to leave before the traders would repel him in the manner known today as “Chaptz’em”.
An unscrupulous trader named Nebela or de Menubal, an ancestor of the Admou”r meCreedmoor, would write “Sheketz Arroz” on all of his competitor’s schoire, thereby rendering it unfit for sale to Jews as kasher lemehadrin. Generations later, after the Inquisition, the phrase made its way into Yiddish, and eventually, the forgotten phrase was revived by the first Schmoigerman (the European version of the name came from adding Shoiteh and Gas Ruach to the original Menubal surname, turning it into roshei teivois SH oiteh M enuval V e G as R uach), and then adding the -man suffix to be able to register it in the Austro-Hungarian Empire) to serve as a Chassidish rebbe, Rabbi Lemach Kenaan Schmoigerman, whose sefer “Machloikes Rishoinim” listed it as a segula for keeping machloikes alive.
I met Rav Dovid last night at a simcha and almost asked him for a comment to the CR, but then I felt that it was the wrong place for it; b”n another time. But if you read the hakdama, it says it all.
Tamazaball, actually the Ibn Ezra claims Arabic IS a holy language along with Aramaic and Hebrew, as all 3 are Semitic. I believe the other Rishonim argue. No such shita about Lashon Ashkenaz though.
Jothar, when the mitzva of mechias zecher Amalek will resume, upon Moshiach’s arrival, won’t Yiddish have to be forgotten, as well? The same people who claim the mesorah that Germany is Amalek, can’t let go of the last vestiges of their language.
Cherrybim, is Rav Dovid Cohen actually arguing on Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L or not? “Mima nafshach” (there’s that Aramaic thing again)- if he is, what’s his mekor? If not, what’s the “nafka minah”?
Even on the tzad (one that is rachok min haseichel, but lu yitzuyar) that he holds it’s a mitzvah, wouldn’t he agree that a yid is better off spending his free time learning actual Torah instead of Yiddish?
Jothar, it’s also a greater mitzva to learn Torah than to devote one’s time to probe into the 18th century fashions, to attend nigh-long tishen, or to demonstrate against every little thing. However, some have a difficult time opening a sefer, and find it easier to fulfill their religious obligations through the trappings.
Sammygol, each has his own derech of avodas Hashem. Chassidus is called a some a “revolution of the proletariat”, a way for those who aren’t into learning or are uneducated to have dveykus to Hashem. A tisch is actually spiritually moving, but I make co comment on the other 2 as they’re not my mesorah.
Ha’adam lo nivra ela lilmod Torah! (cf. Pirkei Avos 3:10, Rabbeinu yonah there)
jothar. i guess your right, but the people dont believe you.
Tamazaball, they don’t believe me, but they shouldn’t. They should ask their rov or rebbe. Or they should take a look inside the above-quoted igros Moshe and confirm that my translation-summary is accurate and faithful instead of a distortion to prove my point.
With Thanksgiving coming up, maybe we could rename this thread as “The Importance of Indik”?
What is indik?
A turkey, in holy Yiddish 🙂
Y’gar Sahadutha#1. For the MH phobics, and the Lashon Hakodesh advocates: Ramban on Bereshis 48:12. Ki fi hamedaber aleichem. (my loose teich to Egnleshershracht) “Lashon hakodesh as the opinion of the commentators, and this is the Targum Onkelus. And it is possible he did this as an alibi, or to comfort them, because it is no proof (that he was their brother)that one person in Egypt would speak lashon hakodesh, for IMO, IT IS THE LANGUAGE OF CANNAAN, because Abraham did not bring it with him from Ur Kasdim, nor from Charon, but rather Aramaic, and “this pile” is a witness. It was not the language of one man, but of the whole of Canasn, and many of the Egytians spoke it for it is the neighboring language, and certainly the ruler. For such is the way of kings and statesmen to know languages.
To Joseph and others who excel at hocking achainik with sources and more sources. You seem to have studiously avoided mention of the Mishna. Now, particularly in Tahoros and Zeraim, the Mishna comments on all matter of mundane objects from bagpipes to the kitchen sink, b’ivrit curiously enough. This would not have made any sense if it was not a living spoken language. along with PJA, the dialect of the Yerushalmi.
As to MH, it is as holy or profane as those who speak it. Tragically, in EY there are the signs of it splitting into two languages, that spoken by our misguided estranged brothers is not the same as that spoken by the Torah communities, not just in choice of words, but in meanings and nuances of words used common to both. Borcheinu avinu kulanu byachad.
arent you gettin tired already?
Koma,
Why bring the Mishna, or the Ramban, when one can much easier misquote something written in modern times, taken out of context. It is harder to do so with ancient sources, although some do manage still, with myriad twisted proofs about the undead.
mazca im resally getting tired of this discussion ..no one will ever win.
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