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why is yiddish hollier than any other language? it is based off german which was the language of the nazis1
aaryd621
For the same reason some people imagine that the dress style of 18th century Polish aristocracy is holy. just because some Jews adopted it back then. Interestingly, at that time it was considered ultra modern, yet, the same people who dress that way are loudly condemning today’s suits as being the gentile fashion of the age. Why hadn’t those Jews in the time of the Besht worn clothing a’la Rashi, or something that Rav Achoi Gaon would have considered Jewish dress in their own period?
It is simple, if you truly wish to dress like the Avos, get rid of the 7 layers of polyester, known under different Ukranian and Hungarian names, and wear a woolen robe. While at it, take off those boots or oversized slipons and get a sturdy pair of sandals, the kind that Rabi Yochanan HaSandler used to make and wear. Once thus transformed, come back and preach about heimishe clothing and Middle German with a lisp.
And I gotten confused on what mazca said because it sounded like he/she was saying Yiddish MADE ppl go off…which besides 4 getting another insult, this time about the country I live in and how self-centered Americans are…didn’t make much sense. I do understand that yiddish is not only for regular frum Jews and i was not saying that irreligious people do not speak it( in fact reread my post, I actually said that it is “not only a Jewish-Religious language”. Pay Attention Please!) I actually did not know about that irreligious Yiddish-speaking community in Mexico.
hud sorry I didnt mean to insult you, believe me I love united states as much as you do, l lived there half of my life and all my kids went to yeshivas there and actually I miss it. But what I was saying is this, Here in Mexico there is a very big community of ashkenaz speaking irreligous jews that love Yidish and really do not love mitzvot and when you live in Brooklyn you cannot imagine that in other places people could speak a perfect Yidish and not be frum. Thats what I was trying to say. And by the way is ladino holy? My parents spoke arabic , Is arabic holy? And since I am sephardic many years ago people used to question , How come you are jewish and you do not speak Yidish?
The chasam sofer and the Kuzari can both be fulfilled by speaking English with Lashon hakodesh thrown in. The question is, was the Chasam Sofer talking about zman hazeh, when the Jews are living mixed in a secular society, where talking a garbled English causes a chillul Hashem? Rav Mordechai Gifter ZT”L also spoke against bnei Yeshiva being “illiterate in 3 languages”.
Rav Yisroel Salanter called Yiddish “Jargon”. The big halacha seforim (Aruch Hashulchan, Mishna Brurah) call it “lashon Ashkenaz”. Rav Moshe calls it a lashon chol. So if the poskim don’t call it a lashon kodesh, who are we to call it a lashon kodesh? Every mitzvah has a mekor. No mekor, no mitzvah. The poskim don’t say Yiddish is a mitzvah. Therefore, it’s not a mitzvah. The halacha seforim followed in Lita either didn’t accept the Chasam Sofer as halacha lemaaseh, or thought it no longer applied (like my rav Shlit”a feels, as it’s a chillul Hashem to speak improper english in a country always looking to blame foreigners). What DOES apply is that one should always speak in a lashon nekiyah, pleasant and without curses, and one should learn torah and do mitzvos. American Chassidish yiddish moved from saying “effen der fenster” to “effen deh vindeh”. Holiness comes from saying “Torah tziva lanu Moshe”.
Joseph, please explain how YOU feel you have broad enough shoulders to argue on Rav Moshe ZT”L, the poseik Hador. Also, please quote where in the Igros Moshe the igra I’m allegedly arguing on is, so I can look it up inside for the next night seder in yeshiva. Thanks.
i once saw a documentary on yiddish and almost every person besides a chasidishe rebbe for children were not frum. one of the irreligious people said he likes going to meah shearim just so he could here little kids speaking yiddish and seeing that the language is being kept alive.
YIVO in Manhattan has many bundist and Jewish Daily Forward acrchives showing how pervasive the socialist Yiddish movements were.
Joseph, the reason I am able to argue (lu yitzuyar I’m arguing, since you never actually quoted it for me to examine, so until I see it I can say “nisht da aza Rav Moshe)is because I heard otherwise from my Rebbe. He felt that kolel should be limited in length, after which one imitates Hashem and is mezakeh the rabbim. Such is the force of having a Rebbe.
Jothar, You need to decide… are you arguing on the Chasam Sofer and Kuzari, or do you support Yinglish instead if Yiddish? You are taking two opposite positions.
In Lita they spoke Yiddish. And I’ve repeatedly quoted that it was a divrei chol, as per the Chasam Sofer and others. Reb Moshe, who spoke Yiddish himself, never opposed Yiddish just brought up the issue of names. Forget the argument over whether Yiddish is “holy”, that side point is irrelevant to the discussion.
Even though there are Yiddishistin who speak Yiddish, they took it from us, not vice-versa (as is the case of Modern Hebrew), and since we do not live in a country or society dominated by Yiddish-speaking shkotzim, there is no benefit of Lo shinu es leshonam by not speaking Yiddish. But there is such a benefit by not speaking Hebrew.
Joseph, with your last post you make English the language of Dibat Ha-aretz.
Hebrew is now the dominant language of Torah in Eretz Yisroel / Israel even if you only count the Charedim and not the religious Zionists.
Your last sentence shows an intense hatred towards our brothers in Eretz Yisroel / Israel.
For English there is redemption: It is also the dominant language of Torah now in the USA. A big reason for the tremendous growth of Torah in the USA was the decision of the local Torah leaders almost 2 generations ago to teach Chumash and Gemara in English.
Modern Hebrew is not different than Turkish or Farsi – it is the language of a secular culture complete with all those things that we want to stay away from. The fact that some of those who speak Modern Hebrew are religious Jews is not different than the language of any country Jews are in where they speak the language of the land. The point is to stay away from the language of the land and only talk the language of the Jew.
The Chasam Sofer writes that the reason Jews do not speak Loshon Hakodesh as a speaking language is because it is inappropriate to use a holy language while enveloped in Tumah, which is our current status. The Rambam writes that a love song in Hebrew is more repulsive to Hashem than the same song in Arabic, for instance, because the pollution of the Holy language is an additional crime. If someone wants to store pornography in his house, thats bad enough. But to store it in the Aron HaKodesh is unspeakably worse. So to cause Loshon HaKodesh to be used as a street language, complete with all the disgusting ways it is used today in Israel, is just more of a reason why we should make sure it never gets into the streets. For our Creator to look down at the world and see His holy language – or even elements of it – used in magazines such as are sold in Kiosks on Yaffo or Dizengoff Street, or spoken by the lowest of the low trying to make a sale, is not something that he or we are happy about.
Modern Hebrew’s origin is actually anti-Jewish. The creators of MH did so because “it is not possible to be a nation without a national language” (see Eisentein’s encyclopedia, ‘Ivrit’). And the changes that were made, both in accent and content, are unacceptable.
So to speak MH is one thing, but to say it is the “language of the Jew” is just not so. Neither is Yiddish the “language of the Jew”, any more than a black hat is the “clothing of a Jew.” But just as the purpose of the hat is “lo shinu es malbushayhen” – we want to dress differently than the seculars – the purpose of Yiddish is “lo shinu es shemom” – we want to talk differently than the seculars.
Maran Hagoen Rav Elazar Shach told American educators that Yeshiva boys should be taught Chumash in Yiddish, even if the boys speak English amongst themselves. He furtermore said that both boys and girls should learn to be comfortable in Yiddish. He also said that Yiddish is spoken by “all jews” (that is his phrase). He referred parents to send their children to Yiddish teaching yeshivos. And there is good reason why Rebbes and Rabbonim give ma’amarim in Yiddish.
1) “He also said that Yiddish is spoken by “all jews”” Isn’t that factually incorrect?
2) How do you think Yiddish started as a “Jewish” language?
Maran Hagoen Rav Elazar Shach told American educators that Yeshiva boys should be taught Chumash in Yiddish, even if the boys speak English amongst themselves.
Does that also extend to the case where they don’t understand Yiddish at all?
The Wolf
You are missing Rav Shach ZTL’s subtleties.
Is that the reason that in Ponevezh the shiurim are given in Hebrew? Those include the ones Rav Shach himself said.
You are missing Rav Shach ZTL’s subtleties.
Then please point them out to me.
The Wolf
My preceding comment was (mainly) directed to truthsharer.
“Does that also extend to the case where they don’t understand Yiddish at all?”
Rav Shach ZT’L indicated they should be brought up to understand Yiddish fluently. But if that wasn’t the case, I would imagine Rav Shach ZT’L would be agreeable that they learn in their local language.
Joseph, Rav Yosef Chaim Sonenfeld ZT”L actually DISAGREES with you re: Modern Hebrew. I read in the Yated or Hamodia (by Rav Sonenfeld’s Yahrtzeit) that after Ben-Yehuda died, some of his follwers came to him and asked him if this was a case of “binfol resha’im, rina”. He responded that we don’t know what sechar Ben Yehuda has in shomayim for getting people to speak Loshon Hakodesh, even if it’s corrupted. Ein Hashem Mekapeach sechar kol berya. Furthermore, he hopes Ben Yehuda is going to shomayim. While he fought against Ivrit, due to its harmful influence at the time, the familiarity of Israelis with Lashon Hakodesh helps them do teshuva faster, and helps chareidim learn more Torah. Furthermore, in Israel, Ivrit is the language of communication in most of the Chareidi sector. The ideology of Ivrit is gone, as the Chazon Ish said a while ago.
We also don’t know if the Chasam Sofer applies now. He was writing at a time when Jews were throwing off the yoke and leaving the shtetl, and throwing off Yiddish was part of the prikas ol. Today, English is the spoken language the way German was 500 years ago. It’s for the same reason that Rav Shach’s statement is no longer relevant, which is why we are left with the 3 big Litvishe poskim (Mishna Brurah, Aruch Hashulchan, Igros Moshe cited above in O”C 5) that Yiddish is a lashon chol, and the Jews shouldn’t have adopted the goyishe German names we now know as Yiddish names, except it’s too late to protest.
If you have the time to learn Yiddish, get a real mitzvah and learn Torah or say Tehillim. You are getting an actual mitzvah.
Jothar: Thanks for the Psak you issued abrogating the Chasam Sofer and Rav Shach ZT’L.
Jothar, the story regarding Rav Yosef Chaim is printed in Ish al haChoma, written by his own grandson. There is no doubt as to its veracity.
EDITED
“Sammy”: The handle resulted from an undesigned circumstance, if you must know.
26???
You don’t need 26, you did it yourself
Oh ok, I’ll ask for you next time 😉
My turkish ancestors didnt speak a word of yiddish. Apparantly it never was that important to them to learn then, or for the family to learn now.
Then change it; it’s simpler than pasting long comments
Joseph, I didn’t issue that psak abrogating the Chasam Sofer and this shita of Rav Shach ZT”L (which I still haven’t verified, and but I’ll be meiniach that it exists for argument’s sake). The poseik hador, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, did, along with the lack of a mention in the Aruch Hashulchan and the Mishna Brurah. So did Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky ZT”L, who said you teach a child in the language he understands. The Chasam Sofer’s psak was for Hungary, where “Chadash assur min haTorah”, and was not accepted by the Litvish community. My mesorah from my rabbeim is that Yiddish is not holy. My rebbe, who was from Lita and spoke Yiddish fluently, called Yiddish an “amaleikishe lashon”.Clearly his mesorah did not include the “mitzvah” of speaking yiddish. That “mitzvah” was left to the Bundists. He also used to stress the importance of spoeaking a fluent English in order to influence the masses toward Torah and mitzvah observance. Joseph, if you spoke English like a “Yinglishman”, would your posts and opinions here be half as effective?
The old yishuv used to learn in Lashon hakodesh, and only switched to Yiddish when Lashon hakodesh became confused with the ideologically dangerous ivrit, which was used as part of the prikas ol of the early rabidly secular Zionists. Today, Ivrit is the common tongue, and many shiurim are given in Ivrit.
If I’m abrogating the psak of the Chasam Sofer, aren’t you abrogating, negating, impugning and repudiating the psak of maran the Poseik Hador Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L? Two can play at this game. But let’s skip the games and focus on halacha. Halacha is, it’s not holy, at least according to the Litvish mesorah. Halacha and sources win debates, not naarish shtuchs.
Even lu yetzuyar it WAS holy (which it isn’t, according to my Rebbe muvhak, but I like Brisker lu yitzuyars), it could be that the Litvishe mesorah was NOT to make Yiddish holy because it would be giving credence to the Bundists. It’s the same reason why Tanach, Israel, and Moshiach are understressed in yeshivish circles. As I said, it’s a lu yitzuyar. But this way I’m not making a machlokes between the poseik hador Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L and the Chasam Sofer ZT”L.
I was told by a chaver who collects Yeshivishe maaselach that someone once told Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L that Rav Moshe ZT”L’s teshuva on a certain topic argued on the Chasam Sofer ZT”L. He said “Really? Thank you for telling me that!” He then went to his teshuva and penned at the bottom, “udelo kehaChasam Sofer ZT”L.” Our mesorah is Litvish psak, not Hungarian psak. Litvish psak, as per my rebbe and Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L is it’s not holy. I don’t believe Rav Shach ZT”L said it was holy as much as one should use a different language, or one should stick to tradition. Either way, either the Yeshivish community clearly didn’t pasken like him, or his psak is no longer relevant when nobody knows proper Yiddish anymore. It’s like the mechaber stating that one shouldn’t daven for the amud if he can’t pronounce the chiluk between an “aleph” and an “ayin”. As the Mishna Brurah says, this din is no longer relevant today when nobody can. I’m not abrogating his psak as much as I’m ignoring it due to its irrelevance in today’s day and age, when speaking a refined English is much more useful than speaking an unrefined Yinglish. The Gedolei Hador signed off on the Artscroll Revolution. And, of course, I have other poskim on my side.
Jothar
One more point, please. IF it is so supposedly holy even to the Hungarians, WHY, oh why, do so many of them prefer to speak “heimish” instead? Back in that place called the “heim”, where public antisemitism was rife, and the streets were strewn with manure, the Jews living there mostly spoke the Magyar tongue, and persist to use it to this day with nostalgia. Maybe it’s the nigun that makes it appear sweet?
In the Hungarian-tradition yeshivos in the USA they use Yiddish exclusively, true, and those who do so were raised by Hungarian speaking mothers, who, apparently, didn’t sing them Yiddish lullybies.
Polish chasidism is more pragmatic and moved toward Ivrit long ago. Who is left in the “Yiddish only” camp besides the Hungarians? If they feel so strongly about it, let them speak Yiddish even after Moshiach comes. It is a beautiful language, expressive and juicy. Yet, to insist to others that it has a kedeeshoo? Please, stick to the important issues, like rioting against the Tzionim Huaririm, and destroying the Medinoo Hatmayoo. Those vital causes will definitely win you more followers into the Yiddish-speaking camp. The only problem is the kind of followers those will be……
I love Yiddish. It expresses things in a way no other language can. I just wish I could speak it and I hope it never dies. But holy? I would doubt that.
I think much of the Yiddish worship today, which wasn’t evident in Europe, is that we have an idealized vision of Europe in our minds today, when those who actually lived in Europe had no such delusions. As Rav Avigdor Miller writes in one of his books, Kovna, in 1932, had a bus leaving every half hour for the mechalelei shabbos to go to work. By the time he left in 1938, the bus left every 5 minutes.
Yiddish is a nice language. But with the limited free time available to us in the working class, my free time is better spent on a long-term investment in my Olam Haba- learning Torah and doing mitzvos.
“Point is: You can’t speak this language without incorporating holy idioms and words connoting all aspects of Yiddishkeit.”
Yes, and there are no curses as juicy and vile as the Yiddish ones. The point is that it is the speaker who makes his tongue holy or not. When a Ben Torah converses in English, Spanish, French, and “even” in Ivrit, his language is clean, and interlaced with Loshon Hakodesh and pseukim, midrashim, divrei Chazal, and lacks any similarity to the one spoken by the gentiles. At the same time, Yiddish, with all its idiom, when used by the irreligious, can reek with nevolo and loshon horah, and, worse yet, using the very same talmudic expressions.
sammygol – you miss the point. We’re talking about the language, not the speaker. Loshon Hakodesh is a holy language whether spoken by Yaakov, or Eisav; same with Yiddish.
Wrong! Yiddish was used by holy JEWS, as was Arabic, Aramaic, English, French, and even Hungarian. There is no intrinsic holiness in Yiddish. When Jews will use Swahili, it will be them, not the tongue that carries the kedusha. EDITED
You still missing it.
No cherrybim, you missed it. There is only one language that has a holiness by itself, which is Hebrew – Lashon Kodesh, the Holy Tongue.
Yiddish is used for learning, true – but that doesn’t give the language its own holiness. The words you say are holy because of the content, not the language itself. If you incorporate Hebrew words into Yiddish, those words have holiness not because they’re Yiddish, but because they’re Hebrew!
Feif Un, a slight quibble. the Ibn Ezra adds Aramiac and Arabic as Leshonos Hakodesh due to their Semitic origins. The Maharal says Aramaic is holier than Hebrew. But German isn’t holy, even if written in Hebrew letters. the mishna brurah says one can daven in any language if he understands that language, but it’s better to Davenb in Loshon Hakodesh. Not a word about Yiddish, except (iirc) to call it lashon ashkenaz!
The point that you’re also missing is that Lashome Hakodesh IS part of the Yiddish language, whereas, Lashome Hakodesh, is not part of the English language.
So I’m not saying that Yiddish and Lashon Hakodesh are the same kedusha, but being that Lashone Hakodesh IS part of the Yiddish language and being that Yiddish phrases and expressions (not English phrases and expressions) are rooted in Tanach, Medrish and Talmud; so Yiddish, as has been stated by those who are indeed holy, is on a higher level of kedusha than English.
I have heard the English language referred to by g’dolim as “speaking in Goyish”.
The hostility is not directed toward Yiddish. It pertains to the silliness in calling it holy, and in advocating its usage, especially when most of the frum world does not speak it, and those who do, don’t do so all that well, for the most part.
Compare it to the reaction that would be generated if one suddenly started amusing the public with the notion that we should revert to horses, instead of cars, because they were used for centuries, more holy Jews of immense caliber sat in carriages than will ever be driven in cars, and because a horse has an intrinsic kedusha, due to the fact that Dovid Hamelech rode one to battle his enemies. Besides, there are enough bubbe maaelach about some holy horses flying at night to unknown towns, carrying tzaddikim to perform unspoken miracles, and NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY ever spins such grand tales about motor vehicles.
Horses, water carriers, outhouses, tregers, hand plows, wind mills, …. and some languages are all anachronisms, and, while can be used for nostalgic purposes, have little else of value remaining.
Are you saying that Yiddish was holy when the vast majority of Jews spoke it but not today? I don’t think so.
And you can make choizik all you want; Yiddish in all its holiness will never be silly.
People thought Orthodoxy was dead in America and the same for the language of Yidden. Boruch Hashem for their miscalculations.
If you like to make projections, put your money on continued geometric expansion of the yeshivish and chasidish worlds and Yiddish as the/a spoken language of the majority of frum people in America.
I agree with Sammygol.
My hostility isn’t toward Yiddish. It’s toward the idea that it’s a lashon hakodesh, with is against shas poskim. Mitzvos have a mekor. no mekor, no mitzvah, no matter how nostalgic you are for it. I say pink bandannas are now holy, and everyone has to wear one. Mekor? none, but if you attack it I will lament the “hostility toward this holy mitzvah”. The Torah doesn’t work that way.
There were 4 main dialects of yiddish, northwestern, Southwestern, northeastern, and southeastern- Polish, Ukranian, Lithuanian, German, etc. Some had more Russian words, some had more Polish words. Which one is holy?
Rav Dovid Cohen’s book was meant as aggada, not halacha. The Rambam says Hebrew (both lashon chachomim and lashon Tanach dialects) are holy. He says nothing about any other language. I have yet to see a psak of his that it is a full mitzvah to speak yiddish, and if he does, he is going ahgainst Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L who was much bigger. Why are the words of Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L not enough to establish what is and what isn’t a mitzvah?
Jothar!
Because we live in an open market world. First we decide which product we want, then we shop around the market to find who sells it, and for the best price.
Some WANT Yiddish to be holy, due to variety of nostalgic factors. Next come finding proofs, or those who may agree, even if they do so for totally different reasons. Those who disagree are ignored outright. Lastly, we negotiate the price, since most of those who would be in favor of Yiddish only frum world would also like to see their questioneers dress in a certain levush, and commit themselves to a definite lifestyle. Since such a price is a little too high, those sources aren’t quoted at all, and the search goes on, for those who don’t demand more than the language.
“Rav Dovid Cohen’s book was meant as aggada, not halacha.”
OK, I’ll take aggada.
And I’ll take halacha, both nigleh and nistor. Lashon Hakodesh has special merits that can not be duplicated in any other language. Just seeing the Torah in Lashon Hakodesh brings down special merit. Not true by Yiddish.
Yiddish – the holy language, is a very nice little booklet, meant to arouse Jews to the beauty of their esrtwhile mame loshon, and to remind them that even some seemingly insignificant phrases had their origins behar’rei kodesh. Obviously that doesn’t relate to the 14th century German, which is the bulk of it, nor to the incorporated Polish, Russian, Humgarian, and Romanian words, such as kishke and pastromale. They sure taste good, but, unless served at a tish, have zero holiness.
Gevaldig! Peledig! Moiradig! Vunderbar! Oisgetzoichent!….. and not meant to be a halachic work by any stretch of imagination. Not true? For one, it was written in English, the language that the author’s own children speak far better than Yiddish. Were it a halacha, the mechaber, who is a very big talmid chochom AND a posek of note, would have insisted on “Yiddish only” at home, as, incidentally, Rav Avigdor Miller did.
“Not true by Yiddish”
I agree, certainly if you don’t understand Yiddish, it will do nothing for you. But then again, if Moshe Rabbenu was darshining in Lashon Kakodesh, it would do nothing for someone who didn’t understand it.
sammygol – “Yiddish – the holy language, is a very nice little booklet, meant to arouse Jews to the beauty of their esrtwhile mame loshon For one, it was written in English”
Are you nuts! I’m holding the sefer, “Hasafa Yiddish Hakdosha (Yiddish The Holy Language)” in my hand. The only thing in English is the address of the publisher and m’chaber. There goes your ne’emanis out the window.
From a previous post:
Jothar – “So Rav Dovid Cohen wrote an entire book about Yiddish being a holy language, and never discusses sources or even if it’s a Mitzvah? A real poseik never takes anything for granted. He always looks at the sources.”
I can’t believe you either Jothar, but I did respect you.
How do you have the CHUTZPA to question Rav Dovid Cohen as being a “real poseik”?
And you say “and never discusses sources “. Are you talking out of your bottom, or what? There must be about 500 items that Rav Dovid Cohen lists and EVERY one is researched and the MEKOR is shown.
…”or even if it’s a Mitzvah?”
Huh? Your complaining that you want to know if a phrase is a mitzva? Makes no sense.
There goes your ne’emanis out the window.
Cherrybim since I live in mexico I speak to my kids only in English (so they could learn the language) does that make English holy?
The people that would take the train to work on shabbat every 5 minutes in Lithuania also spoke Yiddish.
Hey, Cherry, I saw the English version, possibly a precursor or an excerpt, but who cares. Neither the one you are holding, nor the one I read were written in the very language it promotes. Why, by the way, is a sefer written in Lashon Hakodesh, which IS a language of the holy, to promote a jargon? Please don’t tell me it is written in street Ivrit, as that would be a sacrilege, against Yiddish, of course.
And no matter what language the said sefer appeared in, the author’s own children’s tongue is English. Ask them, please.
Mybat,
wait till the truth is totally forgotten and you will learn to your chagrin that there were no mechal’lei shabbos in the idyllic place of horror called Eastern Europe, and everyone was frum, learned in Kollel his whole life, all the women covered their hair, dressed with tznius, and things like intermarriage and conversions to Christianity simply did not exist. Nostalgia does wonders to one’s memory. I remember a very sweet old Polish Jew, who went through 6 years of Holocaust, and he spoke with wistful gaze about the taste and juiciness of plums in his shtet’l.
Yiddish is someone’s plum.
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