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Posts
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Representing Ultra-Orthodoxy:
mw13 and Lomed Mkol Adam with counsel from Derech HaMelech and Daas Yochid.
Representing Modern Orthodoxy:
Feif Un and ItcheSrulik with counsel from Charlie Hall and cantoresq.
The Rules:
1. Only the nominated spokesmen posters above (or their replacement, if applicable) may participate in this thread. The “One Orthodoxy, Two Worlds” thread should be used by all others (except Mods) to make points or complaints.
2. Exceptions only prove the rule. If XYZ is done by less than, say, 10-20% of UO or MO, you cannot use it against the group as a whole.
May the best team win.
Let the debate begin!
OK, here’s my suggestion: Every representative, please submit an essay describing your brand of Orthodoxy (no criticizing the other side yet). If most of us agree to keep it 1-on-1, we can vote for 1 rep for each side, based on the caliber of their essay. The best essay from each side will be the springboard for the debate.
Sholom IthchiSrulik,
It’s an honor for me to participate in a debate with you.
What is your opinion of Ultra Orthodox brand of Judaism?
Joe killed the thread.
Sorry everyone, but the idea is now tainted.
IthchSrulik [Feif Un, Charliehall]: The point of this debate is not for one side to win, but rather that each side should gain more insight into the other. Through better insight, we will both become less judgmental and more understandng of each other. I think we can both gain from this. Please participate.
LMA: Before you start, please define UO & MO. No one yet has been unable to define the terms definitivly (for example, I think MSseeker is MO, and you may be as well). Your own definition in prior threads, for example, is severely lacking.
Gavra: I think the definition is very simple; either you identify yourself with the Charadi community, or you identify yourself with the Modern Orthodox community.
Lomed, way to go! Can you submit a short paragraph on what being a charedi means to you?
GAW, will you kindly take your quibbles and warmed-over jokes to the other thread?
A few more rules:
1. Each side has our full consent to use any argument already used in the CR.
2. NO whining (“Why do you hate us, boo-hoo?”) or ad-hominem attacks (“You don’t know what you’re talking about.”) Only facts or opinions based on facts, written respectfully, in English.
3. The first one to submit a short essay will have first dibs on questioning the other side.
Lomed Mkol Adam…Which Charedi community? The one that sees the Internet as assur or the one that doesn’t?….not so simple to define….
I think the definition is very simple; either you identify yourself with the Charadi community, or you identify yourself with the Modern Orthodox community.
That is not what you said earlier. To quote:
A Chareidi is someone who believes in the concept of deveikus. In other words, that God is literally connected with every Jew if we first connect ourselves with Him. Deveikus is what defines a Chareidi Jew, and it stands at the core of the motivation of Chareidim to fulfill mitzvos bain adam l’makom, have a relationship with Hashem, and keep away from movies etc. I believe that MO philosophy of Judaism does not include belief in this ‘Diveikus’ concept.
I am much more comfortable with your current definition.
What about those of us who don’t identify with either side?
no…no…have you people never debated? for heaven’s sake. first of all you need a designated moderator. second of all you need clear definitions of basic terms. saying “i identify with x and thus define it by my personal standards” is completely invalid because the terms are then subject to change without notice…sheesh. also there need to be defined rounds otherwise its not a debate its just an open ended…whatever. you need a voting panel. you need a resolution. SERIOUSLY!!!
in the unlikely event this fictional debate comes to fruition, defining the groups will surely be a major point of contention and an integral part of the debate. it is not something that can be decided bdforehand.
Msseeker: I don’t want to define my own Chareidi outlook yet. I first want to discuss the issues which many in the MO community have with the Chareidi community. Once we are through the negativity, then we can discuss the positive elements of Chareidi Judaism.
Mod 80: I agree with you. Let’s start with basics, and later we can get more philosophical.
Gavra: I don’t think its fair to quote me from other threads. Let’s start from scratch on a positive note. I’m eager to hear as much as I’m eager to talk. If you want to take over for ItcheSrulik, then Kol Hakovod; but I can’t debate multiple people at once.
Mod, this debate will not come to fruition unless you mods take over and close it to everyone. Or delete everyone’s comments besides the 2 debators.
Again, I’d love to model the debate on “One People, Two Worlds”. Just two knowledgeable people writing short essays back and forth, with one moderator (their “shadchan” actually) stepping in just once or twice, when there’s gridlock (he claimed they ewere both meshuga and raised practical issues on both sides: Toeiva sanctioned by Reform, and women’s roles in Orthodoxy.)
Bomb, I’ll be the acting moderator if they agree to listen to me.
I don’t think its fair to quote me from other threads.
A Lobotomy? Or Teshuva? 🙂
Mikehall: If the prohibition of internet use is one of the issues you have with Chareidi Judaism, then I will respond to that; but I can’t respond to your personal questions about myself.
If you want to take over for ItcheSrulik, then Kol Hakovod; but I can’t debate multiple people at once.
I don’t define myself as MO (or UO), so that would not be fair. I plan on defending both sides.
msseeker…Lomed Mkol Adam is not even willing to define His Charedi outlook, and he is one of the debators…this is never going to happen….
msseeker…Lomed Mkol Adam is not even willing to define His Charedi outlook, and he is one of the debators…this is never going to happen….
That is why Derech HaMelech would have been a much better choice.
honestly YW is the wrong venue. create a debate on debate.org and link it here
I started the debate with a question to ItchSrulik: “What is your opinion of Ultra Orthodox brand of Judaism?” I was ready and willing to hear criticism of the Chareidi community. I haven’t yet gotten a response. All I get is personal attacks from GAW, and demands from him that I fully define myself before even starting the debate. Is this how a debate is supposed to start? Come on guys.
Lomed, I don’t know how to say it in English. ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???. Literally.
I was ready and willing to hear criticism of the Chareidi community.
Can others chime in
Kollel
All I get is personal attacks from GAW,
If quoting you yourself is a personal attack, I wonder what is not personal? Don’t make believe the past didn’t exist. You want a clean slate, get a new user name.
That I don’t think you are a good person for this debate is not personal, it is my opinion on what you have said here in the CR. (I didn’t suggest Oomis either, and she is not taking it personally). I ask mechila if you are insulted, although I don’t know why you would be (from this thread).
When Derech Hamelech & Dr. Hall (my suggestions) show up, then we can maybe have a serious fact based conversation.
P.S. bombmaniac is 100% correct. If you (LMA or MS) want a debate, start one on debate.org.
I was ready and willing to hear criticism of the Chareidi community.
And I’m ready to defend them. I have no interest in criticising any group of Torah Yidden, only in defending them.
????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???.
Agreed.
Gavra: I think you are the one who needs to define yourself. Can you make up your mind as to which community you belong to? Only people who clearly define themselves with a specific group have a right to choose a candidate for that group. I don’t think you have a right to choose a candidate for either group. Or maybe you can choose for the MO, since you constantly criticize the Chareidi community, and I haven’t yet read any posts from you criticizing the MO community.
I love it how this thread is suppose to be kicking off a debate, yet no actual debate has taken place…instead a lot of bikering and personal opinions…reading it, has provided great entertainment on an otherwise dull working day….
I don’t want to hijack this thread but there’s a point I want to make so I put it on another thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-critique-of-contenders
Or maybe you can choose for the MO, since you constantly criticize the Chareidi community, and I haven’t yet read any posts from you criticizing the MO community.
LOL
I don’t fit into any of the little holes. I’m to the right of Agudah on Toeiva, and to the left on working. I believe that Kollel couples should take full advantage of every red cent the government is willing to give. I believe that one should stay in Kollel (even if they are not learning) over going to work, as it is to your own personal advantage, even if it is bad for the Klal. I believe that opposite gender friendships are a recipe for disaster, unless they treat is like a shidduch date.
As such, I really can’t choose one side. I belong to neither.
However, I would like to see a “clean” debate on the actual facts. You are not the person who will deliver such a debate (based on your prior posts). Nothing against you personally, but I would think you should at least read “Halachic Man” before you go one way or the other (which is why I have not offered myself as a korbon, I don’t think I would be good either).
And lastly, I was also going to point out yitayningwut’s new thread. Thank you.
Thanx GAW
Gavra: I also wish to have a “clean” debate. You must agree that it’s only fair that a group picks a candidate who strongly identifies with them. Since the point of this debate is not to prove the other side wrong, but rather for each side to portray their own side in more positive light; therefore being very knowledgable of the Chareidi world is enough to qualify me for this debate. If after I get started I don’t satisfy the group I’m representing, then I can be replaced with someone else.
therefore being very knowledgable of the Chareidi world is enough to qualify me for this debate
But not Charaidi Hashkafa (as you have proven elsewhere). If you debate, it will be world vs. world, and not hashkafa (or halacha). Derech HaMelech is a much better choice (as he is well versed in Halacha and seforim, and knows the many different UO hashkafos).
I am not asking that you choose someone who is in the middle (like me), but someone who is more broad regarding their own side. That is why the best choices (from this forum) are DHM & Dr. Hall.
????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???
No comprendo. Alguien puede traducir por favor?
Gavra: You definitely can’t be trusted to suggest a candidate for the Chareidi community as much as you claim you’re neutral. Here’s what I dug up from a conversation you had with me.
“I just don’t like the ignorance that has developed in the Yeshivish/Charaidi world.”
Posted 9 months ago
gavra_at_work
Member
Not that you (LMA) are ignorant (C’V), that is just the reason why I find myself defending the left more than the right.”
I believe in the name of Chazon Ish: Chareidim have 613 mitzvos, MO 613 problems.
“I just don’t like the ignorance that has developed in the Yeshivish/Charaidi world.”
Posted 9 months ago
gavra_at_work
Member
Not that you (LMA) are ignorant (C’V), that is just the reason why I find myself defending the left more than the right.”
Hate to say it (and yes, this is personal, and I don’t mean to be mean, but without it I can’t bring in my point), your posts on why we do Mitzvos are a prime example. I guess I changed my mind on you, based on your more recent posts. Without them, I probably would have been OK with you on one side.
Halachic posts which are posted based off emotion and assumptions (such as yours on MO & Mitzvos, or the one by someone else regarding R’ Meir) and not halacha are just that. Leave the debating to a Talmid Chacham (from both sides) who will argue from sources. Pick your choice, but only real sources (prewar) are allowed. I’m even OK with MSseeker, but she will give a Chassidish perspective, not a “Charaidi” one.
I will point out though, that this is no fault of your own. Part of the RW trend is to learn from outside seforim (especially for women), while the LW trend is to learn from inside seforim. In this case, I am pro LW. As has been shown too many times, it is too easy to twist halacha that is learned “outside” to your own predetermined outcome (see: Tznius and Seminaries).
This is part of building parameters of debate, and not who is chosen.
I’m not getting involved, i’m just going to mention issues,
and let the pre-chosen experts respond.
#1 MO- Tznius issue?
im personally curious
does anyone posting here actually think that somehow the representatives of these two sides will be chosen by an unknown force, and that this friendly, informative debate will actually take place?
from some of the serious discussion it seems so.
80: Of course not. Slow day_at_work.
Mod80-
The debate can only happen if the mods only approve posts from the two debaters in the debate thread.
I will step into the chreidi perspective for a moment, “did anyone ask Daas Torah if this is appropriate??????
Gavra: I think I should be debating with you. You as a representative of the MO community and I as representative of Charadi. I always being written sources from the Torah for proof of my point of view. You should likewise do the same. Let’s start.
Let’s just remember the rule to keep this thread ONLY for the selected participants of the debate (and the mods if very minimally necessary)
Since when do you make the CR rules? To the best of my knowledge I can respond to any non-closed thread (including this one).
if mosherose and zahavasdad will agree to debate, i will moderate and disallow others from posting.
b’li neder
You as a representative of the MO community and I as representative of Charadi
How about You as a representative of the MO community and I as representative of Charadi?
I know nothing about MO Hashkafa.
if mosherose and zahavasdad will agree to debate, i will moderate and disallow others from posting.
I would like to see that, even if it wouldn’t be informative.
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