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Sigh. If you think there’s an agenda, then simply stick to the Rambam Hilchos Ishus perek 21 that I mentioned to Mommele. Hopefully you’ll take the Rambam over any internet comments.
You think something that was originated 60 years ago is still relevant to either men or women? Maybe some points are, but society,, including the frum, has changed to the point where most women are not homemakers exclusively. What prompted the posting of this anyway?
his agenda
The list isn’t helpful. It doesn’t offer women any new information, it just tells them to be the perfect wife.
Rambam is even older than 60 years. And pointers on reaching perfection is always helpful, even if we aren’t perfect.
A good husband wouldn’t allow his wife to devote all her time and energy exclusively to his needs.
Joseph- ein hacha nami. Rambam is a real source, and a halachic one to boot. All I objected to was you defending the authenticity of an article in a magazine that I’m skeptical ever existed. And on the rambam, I’ll just point out that it seems like the olam isn’t noheg like him in this issue. For example, does anyone here force their wife to do housework? If so, have you ever forced her through a physical beating, which rambam permits (raavad disagrees)? Does your wife wash your hands, feet, and face in the morning, or do you take a shower? it seems like husbands have been mochel on all these things.
“Does your wife wash your hands, feet, and face in the morning, or do you take a shower? “
I told my wife to do that, and she just threw a cold bucket of water on me. Those metal buckets hurt. (just kidding)
Rambam doesn’t permit the husband to engage a physical beating c”v. Rambam is speaking of beis din, who are permitted to use a rod to enforce halachic compliance. In any event, parts of the Rambam are cited as halacha by the Mechaber in S”A.
Joseph- A pshat reading of the Rambam would say that he permits a physical beating. What’s the sevara to say read Rambam non-literally? The Raavad seemed to understand Rambam to be literally referring to wife-beating, which is why he rejects it. Also, the Mechaber in S”A Does not mention anything about wife-beating, court or no court. Why not?
And even granting that, you didn’t answer if your wife washes your hands, feet, and face, or if you take a shower?
zogt, nearly all the meforshim say the Rambam is referring to beis din and not the husband. The loshon of the Rambam is plural and not singular. Beis din has the right to give a physical beating to many cases where the party refuses to adhere to beis din’s ruling. It isn’t unique in this aspect. The S”A also rules she is compelled (though the Mechaber doesn’t specify via what means of compulsion.)
Right– why *doesn’t* the SA specify the means of compulsion? Mistama he doesn’t hold like rambam that a physical beating is allowed through any means (if he did, he would’ve said ????, davka). Moreover, he doesn’t mention anything about beis din, so I don’t think the Mechaber holds like your reading of rambam either.
Additionally, I’m not sure that ???? implies malkos beis din; rambam could’ve said you give her malkos in a more common way, and rambam is very very meduyak in his lashon.. Finally, raavad understands the rambam literally. So which “nearly all” meforshim are you referring to?
Also, could you answer my question (for the 3rd time) of whether your wife washes your hands, feet and face, or if you take a shower? If you take a shower, why are you mochel on your kavod, and is that even mutar?
I think the pashtus is that it means beis din. Rambam writes:
??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????. ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????
If he imposes it, why is there a tayna back and forth, and why is there a dayan involved?
The Raavad does not seem to understand the Rambam to be referring to wife beating.
Someone who thinks it does, and holds like that, should not get married.
DY- I hear you. Was Rambam writing this halacha ;’maaseh, that batei din today have the (potential) power to beat a woman who doesn’t want to do work?
In any case, Raavad says ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????, beis din or no beis din, and the Shulchan Aruch does not mention beating her at all. I wonder why they would object to a husband taking his wife to beis din, on your reading.
Also, while I thought it was obvious, I don’t support wife beating. This is a theoretical argument on how to read a rambam, with zero l’maaseh applications.
I wonder why they would object to a husband taking his wife to beis din, on your reading.
They wouldn’t, they’re just saying that that’s not what be is din would do.
I didn’t think you meant it l’maaseh; that post was directed elsewhere.
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