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WIY-
“Is there something wrong with a boy who wants to sit and learn and have financial security? Sounds reasonable to me”
UM, yes, it is not incumbent on your in-laws to give you that financial security. If you want it, make it for yourself. My personal problem with the attitude is that they want EVERYTHING. the kollel and the money.
Sacrilege, its true it isn’t incumbant upon the in-laws to offer that support. But nor is it incumbent upon the bochor to marry their daughter if the support isn’t offered.
Ben Torah. Again. Dowry does not = support in the context that it is being used here. Support in the current context was for the very best bachurim.
And you ARE correct it is NOT incumbent upon ANY bachur to marry any girl who does not come along with a dowry OR a commitment of support. The problem I think people have is that it has simply become the expectation that not only is a dowry provided, but dowry has been redefined to also mean supporting AND it is something that must be done for every bachur, for after all, every bachur is the best in the chaburah.
I think what people want to say, but are afraid to say, is that shidduchim has almost become a game where you shakedown (and yes, I am aware of the implications of this term)the parents of a girl for “x” just so that you will agree to a date. Please, oh please I hope that AZ is not reading this, but it is my belief that this is THE prime cause of todays shidduch problems. Too many parents either refuse to be shaken down or simply do not have the financial ability to pony up the cash demanded.
perhaps it stems from the fact that it is reasonable for a man to look for a WIFE that is able to support the family until such time that he fulfills his chiyuv to become a talmid chacham. If a specific girl is incapable of earning money ut would like to marry someone who requires money she might ask her parents to give her some money or they might offer b/c they want her to get married b/c it looks bad for them if she doesn’t or whatever reason they might have
SJS, you mention short term learning (for a few years).
This is part of the problem, IMO. If you look at many middle aged roshei yeshiva/maggidei shiur/even future moetzes members, you will find that many of them were only learning full time for about five years, then they took their first positions. Now out of town kollelim are full of families that came back from E”Y after a few years. Not my business how they’re making it but boy am I curious.
And kol hakovod to the girls who are getting the degrees and working hard. I should say that some families do need the girls to be somewhat independent – clothes, other expenses – due to their financial situations, and the girls may not be able to save as much as they’d like.
I just read a reprint of the Betty Friedan Good Housekeeping article that started it all, reprinted in honor of its 50th anniversary. My friends, they won!!! We’re not raising our girls to want to stay home. We’re raising them to feel guilty and inadequate if and when they want to stay home. Because these wonderful girls who have the degrees and are doing well may still find themselves reaching that point at some point sooner than they’d like. And unless the young men are getting good hadracha and have a real exit plan, they’ll still need major support while they’re in school or getting training. “Business” isn’t for everyone.
I’m tempted to just delete this all. There are no chiddushim here. (If anyone found anything I said to be a chiddush do let me know.)
tzippi, I referenced “short” term vs long term because the plan is different.
If you plan to marry a long term learner (AKA lifetime), then you need a career that can pay for housing, food, clothing and TUITION for 10 kids. If you are talking about shorter term Kollel, unless you pop out twins and triplets every year, you will be talking at most 4 kids in 5 years with daycare costs or a housekeeper.
Its just a different plan.
“perhaps it stems from the fact that it is reasonable for a man to look for a WIFE that is able to support the family until such time that he fulfills his chiyuv to become a talmid chacham”
I’m not sure one can say “ok, I’m now a talmid chacham”, if that were the case, R’ Elyashiv Shlita would have taken a job a long time ago.
Depends on how serious the couple is. You can go out of town if it’s that important to you. We did for a while, and it made all the difference. If Torah is important, you realize that things have to be given up for your ideal, and that’s fine. The problem is, immature kids today want everything that they grew up with and also want the torah lifestyle. It doesn’t work like that.
Tzippi
I must say that I totally agree with that fact that they try to make you feel guilty if youre a stay at home mom.
Enjoy your kids and be with them if you are able to.
One of the conditions of a kesuba is financial support of the husband. (Whether they teach that clause in sem or not is something else…..)
“But nor is it incumbent upon the bochor to marry their daughter if the support isn’t offered”
I guess you are right…
But it is also a 2 way street I dont hafta marry someone with such a poor attitude.
I have heard stories of girls being turned down because the boys family only wants full support. I even know one where the shadchan laughed in the girls father face and said your daughter is never going to get married if you don’t support when the shadchan said the other side wants full support, and this father said he has other children but will try to give as much as he can. This is the type of world we live in???? Oh and another side point-it seems like kibud av vaim totally went out the window with ppl demanding support.
SJS, true, but still requires mesirus nefesh, IMO, and again, what happens at 5 years with 3 1/2 kids?
And I’ve heard of boys who want to learn 7- 10 years and THEN figure out what they want to do when they grow up, they’re not Torah forever.
And Shan, define out of town.
How many 30 year old poskim/Roshey Yeshivah do you know of today? The average age in seems to in the late thirties before they take a position.
Sacrilege
“I guess you are right…
But it is also a 2 way street I dont hafta marry someone with such a poor attitude.”
You are right but many learning boys have this attitude because thats the reality of the shidduch scene today. Im sure there are some boys out there who dont have this attitude but you have to think of it from a guys perspective and also his parents perspective. If a guy can get a great girl and be supported by her parents why not look for such a shidduch as opposed to a shidduch where his parents will have to shell out a lot of money towards the couples expenses? The situation is that a learning boy is in demand and therefore he can ask for things which you may find unreasonable and come from an attitude entitlement and still get it because thats what other guys are getting.
WIY-
“Im sure there are some boys out there who dont have this attitude but you have to think of it from a guys perspective and also his parents perspective.”
I dont really have to… Not what I want, not what I need.
What other people do is their business.
pushut: Rav Elyashiv DID take a job some 60 years ago as a Dayan for the Rabbanut. He retired about 30 years ago.
“You are right but many learning boys have this attitude because thats the reality of the shidduch scene today”
Who created such a rotten attitude?
So he took the job at 40. I guess thats when he decided “OK I’m a talmid chacham” no more support from the shver, time to get a job? I’m only taking my fellow CR commentators statement to its logical conclusion.
“The situation is that a learning boy is in demand and therefore he can ask for things which you may find unreasonable and come from an attitude entitlement and still get it because thats what other guys are getting”
Exactly, and if he doesnt get it from this class of graduating high school or seminary girls, he will hold out for a girl from the next class. Leaving the other girls to grow older and either change their minds about a “learning boy”, or they will have been working for 3-4 years and have their own money put away to live on for a couple of years, or more, depending on their job. And we wonder why we have older singles?
Sad fact is, its supply and demand. The boys can bide their time (to a point, and then they are “old” and unmarketable), but the girls have a shorter runway.
So with a gun to thier collective heads, the girl’s side will promise anything to get a boy to say yes.
Not to worry, though. I’m a firm believer in what goes around comes around. If you were held up at gunpoint by the boys side, not too far down the road, best bocher will find himself at the mercy of a not so smiling mother and father in law when it comes to making choices that affect the future of how the house runs (where to vacation, schools to choose, clothes to buy for yom tov). Yet with zero ability to make any of these descisions on your own (as they cost $$$$) best bocher will have to swallow hard and say “thanks” (and silenly berate himself for not having the means to fend for himself)
But hindsight is usually 20/20
“what goes around comes around…”
Best bocher may find him with an empowered wife as she will be out in the world and bringing in the dough.
This may have consequences in family dynamics.
For example, a dissatisfied wife may not be fearful of leaving a marriage as she has a livelihood, while a “best bocher” who married for “support” may find that “support” demands a stiff price.
Well said yitzy99.
well, I clearly live in one of the hearts of the matter and I see men all around me who are 27, 28, 29+ who have no idea what they want to do with their lives. It is impossible that all of these people would make good teachers/ rebbeim and if they have no degree and no family business to go into, then what is the plan??? don’t get it at all…..somehow they are being supported…but for how long??
ramateshkolian –
Thanks for bringing this up, now I can rant about one of my favorite pet peeves: Newly Weds Moving To Israel
I am yet to be convinced why this is a good/sane/ideal situation. For an american couple to live in Israel it costs close to double than to live in America if being supported. Also, most of the time (for Americans) the girls cant find jobs (and if the do they make about 10 shek an hour, $2.50 in a good economy)
I have heard the argument that they should be able to “lean” on eachother with out their parent nearby (besides the fact that this is rediculous sounding) so move to a diff city in America! no need to be in a diff country, diff language diff culture!
I have heard the “kedush argument”. Girls -Let me assure you (friends and family have confirmed) that once you start having the kids and even before hand you are busy running a house, making suppers… you dont have time to run to the kosel every time you feel like davening mincha, you dont go on kevarim tours every yartzheit, it isnt Seminary any more! And for the guys, I am sure you will learn just as nicely in a nice kollel in America, plus you will have your precious extra money to tide you over.
Sorry about the sarcasm, I just think its a complete waste of money, and an even bigger mishagass.
Anywhere out of Brooklyn or Lakewood is considered out of town.
Is it appropriate to apply the passuk “shomer pisayim hashem”?
Why are we blaming the boy and criticizing him as “feeling entitled”?
It is not wrong to want to learn.
It is not wrong to want to eat.
Eating needs food; food needs money.
Now, there are three parties who can provide the money.
A. His parents
B. Her parents
C. Her.
If his parents are willing to provide the money, there is no further issue.
If not, and he still wants to learn, he looks for girls with means of support; either from parents of self.
Now, you are criticizing based on the claim that his parents should bear the burden as much as hers.
That is not the boy’s issue; it is his parents.
Parents are comprised of a combination of one man and one woman.
So women are equally to blame.
Now, if you wanted to take the boy to task for wanting to learn and not work, you are on worse ground.
The only girls affected by this are those who want a guy who will learn.
So in this issue, we do not need to assign blame since there is no victim.
So the boy is completely non-blameworthy.
Wow, Kew Gardens Hills, Far Rockaway and Passaic are “out of town”?
“…kesuba is financial support of the husband”
You DID mean to say financial support BY the husband, didn’t you?
Moq: they were magidei shiur, rebbes, etc. not necessarily at the top at age 30.
Sacrilege: Yeah, good point. What’s really strange is the push not to have boys go to E”Y till marriage. Now that’s a plan! Send kids who’ve never been there, lived there, established a relationship with mashgichim, rebbeim, mentors. Sounds great to me. Now if a boy is really shteiging there and that particular yeshiva is where he will thrive if he continues, kol hakavod.
But we threw chanoch l’naar out with the bath water long ago…
Oomis, yes,”by the husband”.
Oomis:
Maybe we should change the language in the Kesubah to reflect the new status in our culture that a girl should be required to support the boy. (Sarcasm)
Jewish And Working – The sad fact is that prob not all Boys realize the sarcasm in that.
Sacrilege:
We realize the sarcasm. We joke about it all the time. Usually during a chuppa while the women are davening.
(Written with tongue firmly planted in cheek). If girls were able to read and understand Aramaic, I wonder how many of them would hold their husbands to the terms of their Kesubah. Perhaps this is why we don’t teach them gemara?
Moq,
While still in his 30s, Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l was a member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudath Israel of America, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva Rabbi Yitzchak Elchanan, and de facto Chief Rabbi of Boston. He probably would have had those kinds of accomplishments in his 20s except that he took time out to attend college in Poland and earn a doctorate in German philosophy in Berlin.
tzippi,
Interesting point about Betty Freidan. She many have earned her share in olam habah because it is the result of her efforts in promoting the feminist movement that so many kollel wives are now able to support their husbands in learning.
Correction to my earlier post about Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l: He never stopped learning Torah; he just wasn’t *employed* as a rabbi while in school. While in Berlin he learned with Rabbi Chaim Heller, Rabbi Yitzchak Hutner, and Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg. Late in life he told a talmid that he accepted every halachic position of Rav Weinberg except the permission to stun animals prior to shechita (which in any case was never actually implemented).
Yeah, I might make a copy of that article before the GH goes back to the library. So quaint.
You’re right. My mother, who taught in public school in the fifties, couldn’t work once she started showing, pasnisht in the fifties…
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