The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach

Mentsch1 the terms I have used are based on the Rambam s definition in the last two prakim of hilchos melachim (and no one is cholek on the Rambam) where the Rambam halachically defines who can be considered a suitable candidate to be moshiach (bchezkas moshiach) and the second stage of moshiach vadai- someone we certainly know to be moshiach (because he builds the BHMK etc) from the fact that the Rambam defines this halachically indicates that we should be on the lookout to identify moshiach using these criteria.

There have been piskei din to this effect as well

Anyhow fascinating topic…

It’s not my “giant leaps of reinterpretation” as you put it. For example (just one) Rav Moshe Feinstein says that moshiach doesn’t necessarily need to fight physical waters, but spiritual wars can fit the bill… That’s one example…

Not necessarily. Gimmel Tammuz is just the accepted, most comfortable term Lubavitchers use, and
I use it too. (A more complex answer would explore the theme of Yaakov lo meis although chantu chantaya etc.)

So answer to op so far has been The Rebbe. Anyone else anyone else is considering someone else?

CS, where does rav moshe say anything of the sort?

Complete fabrication. No one said that until messianic Lubavitch.

Yaakov lo meis means Yaakov didn’t die. It doesn’t mean that anyone else didn’t. Eliyahu also didn’t die, and neither did chanoch.

So what? The Lubavitcher Rebbe died. He had strokes and physical health problems just like anyone else. He’s no longer living. He’s not yaakov, eliyahu, or chanoch.

Iggros Moshe, Orach Chayim, volume 4, responsa 81 (see inside for full content)

דהא מפורש בעירובין דף מ”ג ע”ב אליהו לא אתי במעלי שבתא משיח אתי דכיון דאתי משיחא הכל עבדים הן לישראל והוא מהפחד הגדול שזה אינו מצד היראה מהכלי זין, וכמה מלחמות למלכים הצדיקים היה בלא כלי זין כמו ליהונתן ולדוד עם גלית ולאסא וליהושפט ולחזקיה שנצחו בלא כלי זין שא”כ ודאי מלך המשיח לא יצטרך לכלי זין,

Metzudos, Zecharia 9:10

10
הכרתי. אז אבטל רכב וסוס וקשת מלחמה כי לא תהיה אז מלחמה ואין צורך לא לקשת ולא לרכב וסוס:

10
ודבר שלום לגוים. המלך המשיח לא יכניע את כולם ע״י מלחמה כ״א בדברי שלום יכניעם להיות סרים למשמעתו וזה יהיה העיקר והמלחמה טפלה לו

Besides for the many instances where the Rebbe led the world and fought evil spiritually such as the famous occurrence where The Rebbe killed Stalin and brought down the iron curtain as just one example. But mostly The Rebbe influenced world leaders peacefully

CS,

Please confirm whether you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach.

@UJM
2 on your list, albeit true gedolim & tzaddikim, you are still stretching it too much.
1 on your list, you are stretching it a bit.
1 on your list is outrageously laughable (even to his own loyalist followers!)
The rest are OK choices.

Also, what rav moshe meant by dovid and galius not being klei zayin refers to the war in general with the plishtim. When their champion was defeated, they abandoned their campaign. The war was over without a formal military conflict.

Avira
“Cs, as i suspected. He doesn’t say a word about a spiritual war. He says it will be won without “him needing weapons”, like how chizkiyahu won wars through prayer, dovid killed golius, etc…as in Hashem will just topple the enemies, without a conventional war.

But it’s very much physical enemies. Not the yatzer hora or avodah zara etc”

Yah you’re right. I meant fight by spiritual means (I guess like Moshe killing the Egyptian with his words) instead of leading a physical weapon campaign etc.

If you noticed I mentioned Stalin. Also The Rebbe predicted the fall of the Soviet Union before Gorbachev was considering it and directed Eretz Yisrael to prepare housing for all of the immigrants who would leave… which seemed preposterous at the time… until it happened. There were other physical wars also that The Rebbe fought on a spiritual plane as well if you want them enumerated lmk

Mdd “Rabbi M.M. Shneerson did not make all or majority of Klal Yisroel go in the derech ha’Torah or rebuild the Beis Ha’Mikdash or did other things which Moshiach is supposed to do. Enough of brainwashing!”

The Rebbe did institute ways/ a structure of personal shluchim to reach every single Jew and bring them closer to Torah and mitzvos. Correct- he didn’t build the Beis HaMikdash- that is within the category of moshiach Vadai which I wasn’t discussing

Cs,

In regards to Rav Moshe’s teshuva

You can’t just quote something and then stop, he brings other shittos that say not like that

So the rest of it says that there are other shittos that say it will be a real war not a “spiritual war”

Also, stalin was one of many enemies of the jews. After his death, nothing improved in the Soviet union for Jewish people either .. The persecution continued unabated for decades.

And what about all of the other enemies? There were still tons of extremist Muslim terrorists, neo Nazis and Jewish persecutors, such as militant anti religious Zionists.

Avira, if you notice, the criteria for bchezkas moshiach are all personal traits, whereas moshiach Vadai are all effects in the world. The first criterion of moshiach Vadai is עשה והצליח. This implies that when it says יכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, by bchezkas moshiach- it means that he as a person did his best to influence things in that direction…. And if it is indeed successful then he’s moshiach Vadai.

The Rebbe put in the infrastructure to change the tide for world Jewry, and yes it didn’t immediately turn around, but slowly but surely The Rebbes work is paying off. And it’s still his work today, because every Lubavitcher feels The Rebbes guidance today, which is why he’s still our Rebbe… and we have what to do until we complete our mission of bringing moshiach.

A practical example is a recent Pew study which indicates that a large percentage of Jews today are in Chabad houses and programs, the closing Reform temples and expanding Chabad houses, the Reform movement turning in the direction of adding mitzvos back in to the picture etc.

Also if you only measure success by frume yidden, you will get a smaller, growing number, but if you measure success as in how many yidden are growing in Mitzvah observance, one Mitzvah at a time, and on their way up, the number is vast.

Just some things to think about

Avira yes no one is saying that all our enemies are completely defeated, or the Geula process is completed, we’re still very much in golus… when the second stage of geula comes iyH (moshiach Vadai etc) it will include all that

Cs, chezkas moshiach is only personal traits? This is totally off The rambam clearly mentions bringing back yisroel to teshuvah(ALL of them) nd fighting the wars as a chazakah. He has to be hogeh batorah, too

It says he will bring all of yisroel to keep the Torah. Are all or even a quarter of yisroel keeping the Torah, 2 and a half decades after the Lubavitcher rebbe passed away? No. They’re not. Chabad are not the only ones taking over frei shuls; many litvishe and MO rabbis are as well.

And in those chabad houses, are they all suddenly becoming frum? Usually it’s old timers who maybe keep a few things, maybe eat a Shabbos seudah before watching TV.

And don’t get me wrong, it’s great to keep even one mitzvah. Abstaining from sin for a minute is huge, too. But that has nothing to do with the criteria for moshiach.

And once more, as mentioned ad nauseam, the rambam says that of a messianic candidate doesn’t finish his job, and dies, he is not moshiach at all, he is disqualified. He will not return to “finish” – that’s Christian second-coming ideology, and it’s not Judaism.

As for fighting the wars and defeating our enemies; again, the rambam says “all” “misavev”, that didn’t happen.

Of course, the whole remote controlled killing theory is unfalsifiable. Maybe it was the satmar rov who killed stalin? Maybe it was the belzer rebbe? All of klal yisroel were davening for the Soviet union to fall

I’m not dismissing the idea of a tzadik being po’el things in shomayim to save klal yisroel, end gezeros, daven for the fall of our enemies, etc… But it’s not what the rambam is talking about. He’s talking about retaking eretz yisroel, and his example is bar kochva.

And again, Stalin’s death meant almost nothing to the spiritual plight of Russian jewry. I’m not familiar with a plan to commit a Holocaust, but even if that were the case, the Soviet union was the “enemy” and it prevailed. And when it fell, it had already shmaded, r”l, millions of our brethren. That’s not a messianic victory, it’s a tragedy of historic proportions.

Dear Fellow Posters,

We can have a fun shmooze so long as we don‘t take this topic too seriously. The Rambam clearly says we don‘t know how the events will play out. And it‘s not even considered Limud Hatorah to discuss how it may happen. The main criteria is ‘a descendant of Dovid Hamelech who goes in his ways‘. If you think that any specific Jew is disqualified because of the latter phrase, please keep it off this site. It‘s a very high bar, which can be analyzed in an general manner. Let‘s not carry on pulling apart all the great Jewish Leaders to see how much they worried, cared, and acted on behalf of all Jews. And if you are not aware how Dovid Hamelch himself was a fulfillment of said phrase, kindly excuse yourself from this topic. If you are unaware of the initiator, than don‘t attempt to describe the culmination.

Avira,
in my experience, most of baalei teshuva are from chabad (not necessarily staying Chabad). Maybe my crowd is skewed more towards academic community. There are several good-meaning and donor-funded organizations on campus now that do some classes and trips to Israel, not sure how successful they are. I do not know many (any?) people who walked up a Satmar, Litvishe, or MO shul and became interested. Do you?

Always, the Jews with the Polish citizenship left during the Stalin times — in the mid-forties.

Ujm yes I’ve seen several emails/ fliers to that effect- that they should refocus on mitzvos because Chabad is doing that and they’re successful… a different flyer I’ve seen that they’re going to study The Rebbes teachings together as a class etc.

Avira

“And in those chabad houses, are they all suddenly becoming frum? Usually it’s old timers who maybe keep a few things, maybe eat a Shabbos seudah before watching TV.”

Really? Some yes, and that’s also an accomplishment, and you never know where it may lead, but no. There are many baalei teshuva BH.

“And don’t get me wrong, it’s great to keep even one mitzvah. Abstaining from sin for a minute is huge
, too.”

Glad you see that.

“But that has nothing to do with the criteria for moshiach.”

Addressed.