The first flowering of our redemption.

And yet I will still walk out of any shul that slips in that specious inference under the guise of a blessing for the jewish government. Go figure. In the past, false moshiach would appeal based on his broad mastery of torah and charismatic ability to unite. Your false moshiach doesn’t even have any of that.

The Brisker Rav stated that had the Jews in 1948 davened for the true geulah then they would have gotten that and Mashiach would have come. But since they davened for this heretical State of Israel instead, Hashem gave them that instead. This was the reason the State unfortunately came into being and also what severely derailed your “incontrovertible proof”.

In other words, after the great suffering from Germany, we would have had Mashiach in the 1940s, but, instead, the “Religious” Zionists (and perhaps others, liChaOra) ruined it by davening for this idol State instead of davening for, lihavdil, Mashiach.

At this point, instead of Mashiach, you have a State that has cost rivers of Jewish blood to create and maintain, not to mention the shmad of hundreds of thousands of acheinu binei Yisrael. And after all those human sacrifices on the altar of Zionism, the Zionists need their citizens to be armed as they walk around the streets so that they can ward off the savages with knives, etc. Hashem Yishmor, and they want to spend Billions (with a “B”) of dollars to turn the Zionist paradise into one big ghetto. In other words, the State has, of course, been a tremendous failure (at best) both spiritually and physically, despite the scientific awards, etc. of the Jews there. Yet you still believe in this idol.

As the Brisker Rav noted, the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the cheit haEigel. Nothing since the Eigel has topped this. Yet you maintain this fantasy that the State was a good thing in spite of this and in spite of the multitude of massive disasters that the State has wrought on Klal Yisrael.

As mentioned before, if anyone wonders how it is possible that only 600 people in all of Klal Yisrael did not bow down to the baal idol in the time of Eliyahu HaNavi, one need only look at Zionism today to understand.

Avi K,

You are seeing what you want to see. Personally, I don’t mind the prayer for the Medinah, EXCEPT those words ????? ????? ???????

If you want to daven for Hashem to help the Jews of the Medinah then good, but no one knows Hashem’s plan for the Geulah. Maybe the beginning of the Geulah started when the Talmidai haGRA went to E”Y. Maybe at the beginning of Yeshivat Porat Yosef. Maybe it did not happen yet. None of us knows.

AviK, you lost me from the very first sentence you quoted. Surely you can see on your own that simplistic interpretation of the words of people who were light years ahead of us in wisdom and understanding (in Nigleh & Nistar) is vacuous and futile.

Yes there was a ruler whose decrees were tragically like Haman’s. But did he bring us back to the true good path and cause us to do Teshuva? Unfortunately not. Of course it’s not for us to judge, but the sad fact is that many survivors left Torah and mitzvah observance behind when they began their lives anew.

Of course there can! Did hitler make bnei yisrael do Yeshiva? The answer is obviously no, due to people going off the derech

sorry I meant teshuva stupid autocorrect 🙁

Sorry I also meant someone new, not knew

The confusion that this generation is subject to is mind boggling and terribly tragic.

Klal Yisroel was/is given the “Eretz Yisroel project” opportunity three times.

1) After Yetzias Mitzrayim

2) Prior to Bayis Sheni

3) Prior to Bayis Shlishi

The Torah/Navi/Ksuvim make it very clear that this not a picnic where all parties live happily ever after. Rather its a very painful and challenging process. This process is a national responsibility to make it happen and not one that Hashem hands us on a silver platter.

For the majority of 2000 years of Golus, this task was irrelevant, however one must be foolish to deny the opportunity we are being handed today with the new reality in Eretz Yisroel. There are more Jews living in Eretz Yisroel than anywhere else in the world. We all accept responsibility and work very hard to do Mitzvos, not do Aveiros, be mechanech our children, support our families etc. etc. why do we expect the greatest era and Zenith and culmination of 3500 years of Jewish History to be any different?

All who delegitimize this new reality of our era are present day Meraglim. instead of complaining, perhaps get involved!

To simplify ;

1) The Torah places an overwhelming emphasis on Eretz Yisroel

2) The Torah makes it clear that its a lot of work

3) Facing reality we see the opportunity is once again at hand.

4) Stop complaining / blaming and start doing.

Avi K & Co.,

WoW !Rehashing Old Topics ad infintum?!

Every word that will written here ,has already been written and printed over and over!

lakewoodcomment,

Well Said

But relevant?

Maybe start another Thread

Medinas Yisroel is not redemptive. If anything, it probably lengthens our galus. I wish Israel well, but as someone who follows the views of the bulk of the gedolim, how could I be a Zionist? The irony is that even as far as more modern gedolim go, Rav Hirsch was very opposed to Zionism.