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@qwerty613 actually if you go to any chabad comunity, no one cares to justify to the misnagdim their beliefs, no one cares what the litvish rabbonim think, most chabad chassidim dont even know the names of the big litvishe rabbonim or roshai yeshivos.
on this thread some try to have fun. thats it.no lubavitchers were talking about if moshiach can be from the dead before gimel tamuz, it wasn’t relevant, actually i heard the oppisite that the misnagdim said about chabad “how can you say someone alive today will be moshiach, and if you do your’re reseach, youll find that when chabad said openly that the rebbe is moshiach, when he was alive, r’ shach said they are kofrim.
anyway why do these misnagdim care what we think, go learn gemerah! get a life. stop focusing on others “problems” especially if youre claims against it are really am haaratzusdik and stupid (if not kfira – for saying moshiach cant be from the dead against a clear gemara)AAQ,
Kol Torah in Bayit Vegan is indeed a beautiful yeshiva but the story with R. Yaakov, zt”l actually took place during his visit to Kol Yaakov in Bayit Vegan. He was overjoyed to see Sephardim and Ashkenazim learning together in the yeshiva founded by R. Yehuda Ades.
To Gadol
Thanks for the clarification. Quite often certain details of a story get confused.
To Sechel
Your point is that Lubavichers don’t care what normal Jews think. Well if that’s so why did one of your landsman start this thread? He asserted that there is now clearcut proof that the Rebbe is Moshiach. That you guys feel the need to convince edit Jews of your lunacy is an indication that you realize how shoddy your evidence is. But if you want to believe that the Rebbe us Moshiach/god gesunterheit.
Moshiach is one fight away!
Qwerty > impress on people that Moshiach will bring all Jews together
Right. Maybe this is a way to evaluate claims. If the claims are divisive, they are not kosher and vice versa
Gadolhadofy, my apologies, I think you are correcting me repeatedly on this story.
@sechel
Dont falsify history .
They clearly said that he has to be from the living and cannot be from the dead . I remember it .
Its all over Kfar habad newspaper and articles by leading habad rabbanim and Mashpi’im .
R Shach accused them of apikorsus already before the mashiach debacle started . No connection .
If those who say mashiach cant be from the dead are kofrim , then habad pre 94 are kofrim and the ramban too .
Honesty morai verabotai . Honesty ….To always,
As yankel berel said it’s not sinas chinam to criticize Chabad theology. All Hashem expects from us is that we tell the truth. If, as it’s quite clear that Chabad is distorting the truth to convince others of its beliefs then we’re obligated to call them out. As for your attack on Godolhad, if he’s right accept it. Don’t let your ego stand in the way of truth.To sechel83
You said it’s kefira to challenge an open Gemara. This said, how was the Rebbe able to reject the Gemara in Chelek which said that only pne out of 300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach?
To yankel berel
I’d like to add to your point about Chabad rejecting the concept of Moshiach from the dead. A Lubavicher told me that when the Tebbe died it created shock waves in CH because it meant that he coulcn’t be Moshiach. Rather rhan accept that simple truth, two camps emerged. One denied that the Rebbe actually died, the other accepted that fact but consoled themselves with the Chazal that after a Tzaddik dies he’s more alive than when he was living.
@qwerty
just for the record – even those two inventions [1. not dying at all or 2. yes dying but being more alive as a result of dying] were clearly rejected by habad pre 94 .
Not just rejected , but being proclaimed as going against ikarei emuna .
Because mashiach HAD to be from the living AND the present , which axiomatically guaranteed that their rebbi would not die or even ‘disappear’ before leading us all definitively out of the galut.
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Which was obviously proven wrong by the harshest judge of all – Reality…..
.To yankel berel
Obviously reality means nothing. I met someone yesterday in the Sukkah. He credits Rabbi Miller for making h frum. He’s convonced that the Rebbe is Moshiach because Rabbi Miller endorsed him as being great.
edited
@qwerty 613 about one in 300k – you already asked this question, and i already answered it, see other thread there are gemaros, medrashim, zohar, kisvai ari zal etc that say different than that gemara. (like many machlokesim in gemara)
see igros kodesh vol 1 letter #85. one source brought there example ועיין בסנה’ (קד, ב) דורשי רשומות היו אומרים כולן (אפילו ירבעם וחבריו) באים לעוה”ב
the rambam clearly writes in igeres techiyas hamasim that moshiach can be from the dead.
if you say moshiach can not be from the dead, you will need to find at least one makor in chazal, then you will have a machlokes!if you look into the sugya you will be there are 2 ways for moshiach to come, if we merit or not, if we merit there will be miricles from the start, if not the miricles will only happen later, so the rambam in hilchos melachim is explaing al pi halacha the natrual way for moshiach to come, thats why the chasam sofer and others write that in every genaration there is someone fit to be moshiach who is alive, so that natrually moshiach can come every day. but moshiach can still come from the dead like the rambam writes in igeres techiyas hamasim. and like the gemara says. look in the safer dvar malchus, over 600 pages explaining hilchos melech hamoshiach in rambam.
look at wikipedia and the footnotes about reb shach, moshiach, chabad when he went against chabadTo sechel83
“The Chasam Sofer and othets write that in every generation there is someone alive who is fit to be Moshiach.” Who is that person in our generation? Yankel berelbcalled you a liar for refusing to admit that Moshiach min hameisim was a post Gimmel Tammuzi invention. I’ll second yankel’s assertion because there is no Machlokes in ths Gemara in Chelek. The only person in the history of the Jewish people who rejected that explicit Gemara is the Rebbe.
@qwerty
Their theology does not have to align with facts . Maybe that is included in the motto of ‘lehathila ariber’ ?
Meaning – we will not be ‘gores’ any obstacles, if they come and obstruct our path in avodat hashem [or avodat harebbi] .
Which is an understandable and admirable approach.
.
But ….
Inconvenient facts could also sometimes function as obstacles , or not ?To Sechel
Still waitimg to hear your candidate for this generation’s living potential Moshiach.i believe there is someone alive today who is fit to be moshiach, based on what i learned about moshiach in chassidus, i dont have any candidate, no one alive that i know of comes close to such a character. so either there is someone who i dont know of, or there is someone who i heard of, and he hides his real qualities (cant think of a better word). i guess if moshiach will be from those alive today, he looks something like the rebbe or will look like that when he redeems us (obviously looks means his neshama, hashkafa, tzidkus etc) see keser shem tov first letter.
but moshiach can still be the rebbe just like moshiach was always able to be from the dead.from keser shem tov:
ועליתי מדריגה אחר מדריגה, עד שנכנסתי להיכל משיח ששם לומד משיח תורה עם כל התנאים והצדיקים וגם עם שבעה רועים, ושם ראיתי שמחה גדולה עד מאד, ואיני יודע לשמחה זו מה הוא עושה, והייתי סובר שהשמחה הזו ח”ו על פטירתי מהעוה”ז, והודיעו לי אח”כ שאיני נפטר עדיין כי הנאה להם למעלה כשאני מייחד יחודים למטה ע”י <תורתם> [תורותיהם] הקדושה, אבל מהות השמחה איני יודע עד היום הזה.ושאלתי את פי משיח, אימת אתי מר, והשיב לי, בזאת תדע, בעת שיתפרסם למודך ויתגלה בעולם ויפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה מה שלמדתי אותך והשגת, ויוכלו גם המה לעשות יחודים ועליות כמוך, ואז יכלו כל הקליפות ויהיה עת רצון וישועה.
ותמהתי ע”ז, והי’ לי צער גדול באריכות הזמן כל כך מתי זה אפשר להיות. אך ממה שלמדתי בהיותי שם שלשה דברים סגולות ושלשה שמות הקדושים, והם בנקל ללמוד ולפרש, ונתקרר דעתי, וחשבתי אפשר שעי”ז יוכלו גם אנשי גילי לבוא למדרגה ובחינה כמותי, דהיינו בהיותם יכולים לעליות נשמות וילמדו וישיגו כמו אני. ולא נתנה רשות כל ימי חיי לגלות זאת. ובקשתי עבורך ללמד אותך ולא הורשיתי כלל, ומושבע ועומד אני על זה.
אך זאת אני מודיעך והשם יהיה בעזרך לנכח ה’ דרכך ואל יליזו, [ובפרט בארץ הקדושה], בעת תפלתך ולימודך וכל דיבור ודיבור ומוצא שפתיך תכוין לייחד שם, כי בכל אות ואות יש עולמות ונשמות ואלהות, ועולים ומתקשרים ומתייחדים זה עם זה, ואח”כ מתקשרים ומתייחדים האותיות <ונעשה> [ונעשים] תיבה ומתייחדים יחוד אמיתי באלהות, ותכלול נשמתך עמהם בכל בחינה ובחינה מהנ”ל, ומתייחדים כל העולמות כאחד ועולים, <ונעשה> [ונעשים] שמחה ותענוג גדול לאין שיעור, בהבינך בשמחת חתן וכלה בקטנות וגשמיות, וכ”ש במעלה העליונה כזאת. ובודאי ה’ יהיה בעזרך ובכל אשר תפנה תצליח ותשכיל, תן לחכם ויחכם עוד.
here you see a bit what moshiach and toraso shel moshiach is about, there is an explained keser shem tov (can be found on otzar hachachma) that may explain a bit more. and all the books of chassidus is full of these concepts see there.
To sechel83
So you believe that there’s someone alive today who could be Moshiach, but you don’t know that person’s identity. I agree with you. And this has been true throughout the millennia. Only in the case of the Rebbe did his followers decide he was that potential Moshiach. Remember, mainstream Judaism never accepted the notion that the Rebbe was the Moshiach Hador when he was alive, and we certainly don’t believe that he’ll have a second coming to claim the throne. Yes, Rabbi Akiva said that about Bar Kochba, but when Bar Kochba died he realized he was wrong. That’s a message that is lost on Chabad because its leader changed or rejected Gemaras when they didn’t fit his agenda. BTW, instead of citing sources summarize them in English.
I was thinking about previous stuff that I wrote where I spoke disrespectfully about the Lubavitcher rebbe and I realized that I made a mistake although the Lubavitcher Rebbe is not בחזקת משיח and it’s against the Torah to think that he is and although he made other various mistakes he was still a צדיק and he did many good things and even though many צדיקים were against different stuff that he did but they generally didn’t come out against him personally because they recognized that he was a צדיק so I want to apologize to Lubavitcher Chassidim for not referring to the Lubavitcher Rebbe with proper respect
To 5783
It’s admirable that you’re apologizing for making insensitive remarks about the Rebbe. Obviously, you were affected by the Yomim Noraim. I would make two comments. First, you’ll never see or hear any Lubavicher make any apologies for insulting a litany of Gedolim. Second, those who criticize the Rebbe make sure it’s not personal. All agree that he was a genius in Nigleh, nistar, and the sciences. In addition, he was beloved by everyone who met him. That said,
edited
there is nothing wrong with pointing to someone and saying he is moshiach, i beleive the rebbe was the moshiach in the generation when he was alive (many rabbanim/ gedolim beleived the same edited)
rabbi yitzckok breitowitz of aish hatorah says a story that people came to rabbi moshe feinstein and reported that in lubavitch they are saying the rebbe is moshiach, and reb moshe answered “so? whats the problem? (there is a video of him saying the story on youtube)
im saying that, the rebbe was clearly a person fit to be moshiach, since 1994, no one ever pointed to someone as moshiach because no one fits the description as the rebbe did.
there were very few rabbonim who opposed pointing to the rebbe being moshiach, there are botul bielef (in a 1000) to the rest of rabbonim. and they were from the litvish/ misnagdim who dont beleive in the baal shem tov@AviraDeArah I’m sorry to burst your bubble but the mechaber of the Sefer is actually someone who did not grow up Lubavitch. You therefore can’t claim that he was brainwashed or has an agenda. He came to Lubavitch on his own because he felt that that is where the emes is. He studied the topic of moshiach for over 25 years so I think he knows it a little better than you. His goal is truly to spread achdus amongst yidden. He said his goal with his Sefer is to show that there is base to claim moshiach mhameisim.
His personal history is irrelevant .
.
Fact is and remains .
Habad pre 94 , including ALL their rabbanaim etc etc .
.
ALL of them proclaimed that mashiach is only from the live [not fom the dead , not from the ‘invisible’ , not from the ‘disappeared’ or whatever other label you want stick on]
Thats how THEY proclaimed their rebbi is mashiach and that this is part of the ikarei emuna .
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We know one thing for sure – habad is never wrong in their theology ….
So it MUST be like that .
Doesn’t make one iota of a difference what this or that gmara says , what this or that Rishon says – habad is never wrong ….
so the matter is settled forever and ever …..
Mashiach is Only from the live !To 613yid
I don’t think that anyone is challenging the notion of Moshiach min hameisim. What mainstream Jewry is saying is that when we speculate that Moshiach will come from the dead there’s no reason to assume that the specific dead person will be the Rebbe.
To sechel83You claimed that there are Gemaras(plural) that argue against the Gemara in Cheilek. We’re waiting for ypu to produce said Gemoros or admit that they don’t exist.
who cares who moshiach is? why can’t we just all hope for him to come? all I see is hate against chabad, and I can tell you for sure that it’s really not the way to bring moshiach
Nobody is hating Chabadniks. We are just trying to fight against kefirah, and trying to get the Chabadniks to do teshuvah.
To DaMoshe
You’re certainly right, but given what’s happening now, this isn’t the time to argue with Chabad. edited
oh btw ywn posted how 20k jews prayed to hashem in front of 770, for all those people who think they daven to the rebbe ch”v
@qwerty. on a different thread i quoted more. its all in igros kodesh vol 1 letter #85
bottom line every jew is a jew no matter what. see gemara kidushin 36aבשו”ת הרשב”א [א, קצ”ד] דן אם מומר לעכו”ם מטמא באוהל למ”ד קברי עכו”ם אינו מטמא באוהל, או שדינו כישראל שמטמא באוהל. וכתב שהלכה כרבי מאיר שבין ובין כך קרוין בנים, ולכן אף מומר לעכו”ם הרי הוא בכלל אדם כי ימות באהל שקברו מטמא באוהל.
see the gra in sh”u on this halacha. see maharal also on the gemara
וכתורת הבעש”ט שאהבת הקב”ה
לכאו”א מישראל היא גדולה יותר
מאהבת הורים זקנים לבנם יחידם שנולד
להם לעת זקנתם – אינו סובל דיבורים
שהם היפך שבח בניו, ולא עוד אלא
שהדיבור היפך שבח בניו פוגע בו (בהקב”ה) כביכול
כמ”ש ברור ומפורש הנוגע בכם נוגע בבת עינוTo sechel83
For the record, you stated thst there were Gemaras that argued on the Gemara in Chelek. We both know that no such Gemara exists, As I stated earlier in the week this is not the time for Jews to fight with each other because our brothers and sisters in Israel are in danger. My thoughts are with them, but editedTo sechel83
” Bottom line. Every Jew is a Jew no matter what.”. The statement is true but it’s fraught with implications. What you’re umplying is that there’s no difference between Reb Chaim and Bernie Sandwrs. Hitler and Hamas would agree with that but Hashem certainly doesn’t. As Rabbi Avigdor Miller said, “Those Jews who wanted to spend their lives on the beaches of Hawaii will end up there.” A Jew will not be redeemed simply because his mother was Jewish.
here is the gemara is senhedrin as well as other sources. yes evert jew is a peice of g-d. no diference between jews. 100% correct. basics of chassidus, see tanya chapter 2. the essence of every jew is a peice of g-d. there is one g-d not made up of parts ch”v, achdus hashem 101. the only differences is jews it in how much his neshama is revealved. the essence of moshiach is the revelation of achdus hashem and every jews neshama will be revealed 100%.
בסנה’ (קד, ב) דורשי רשומות היו אומרים כולן (אפילו ירבעם וחבריו) באים לעוה”ב
בירושלמי (כלאים פ״ט ה׳׳ג) דאפילו ירבעם
וחבריו שמנו באותן שאין לחם חלק לעוה״ב, הנה ע״י אשר – שנים
רבות אחרי מיתתן – נשרף גופן נעשית בה ם מדת הדין ובצירוף זכו ת
הארץ יזכו ל ת חי ”.
ובמדרש שמואל ריש מס’ אבות בפי’ משנת כל ישראל כתב וז”ל: עולם הבא הנזכר כאן הוא עולם התחי’ ולא ישא אלקים את נפש הרשע עד כי ברוב הימים ימצאנה מטוהרה ואז נגנזת במחיצת הצדיקים כו’ וכן ע”ז הדרך לכל הנשמות עד שיתוקנו כולם כו’ וז”ש הכתוב ועמך כולם צדיקים כלומר בהכרח יהיו כולם צדיקים לפי שהוא ית’ חשב מחשבות לבלתי ידח ממנו נדח, עכ”ל.
עמק המלך (בתחלתו ש’ תקוני התשובה ספ”ג) וז”ל: ועתה בנים שמעו לי יראת ד’ אלמדכם ואהבתו הק’ עמנו בני א-ל חי, למה לו כולי האי לטרוח עצמו ברשעים האלו המכעיסים אותו בכל עת ובכל רגע, ב’ תשובות בדבר התשובה הא’ כו’ אע”פ שהם רשעים גמורים כו’ ניצוצי קדושה בהם כו’ שהם נצר מטעי כו’ והיא חלק אלקה היא נצחי כו’ והנשמות הם רושם אור עצמותו וכל (אולי צ”ל “דכל”) הנופח מעצמותו הוא נופח כו’ ועוד טעם שני מעשה ידי להתפאר כו’ הק’ הוא ומעשה ידיו חיים וקיימים לעד ולעולמי עולמים ואי אפשר שתתבטל כו’
ויעוין ג”כ ברמב”ן בש’ הגמול (הובאו דבריו לקמן) שכתב: הנפש שהיא עליונה אי אפשר שתהי’ בטלה ואובדת כו’.To Sechel83
Thanks for finally providing your sources, but there’s one problem. The Gemaras you quote speak about Roshoim who ultimately get into Olam Habo after a lengthy stay in Gehinnom. I will never challenge any statement in the Gemara, but that’s not the subject of the Gemara on 111a which says that only a small percentage of Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Therefore, you haven’t provided any statement which challenges that Gemara. More troubling, however, is your assertion that there is no difference between Jews. What you’re saying is that the Rebbe and Trotsky, for example, are equal. Ch”vsh
@awerty
i finally proved my sources??? this is not something i should need to prove. its a clear gemara. so now you want to make a difference between those who had a lengthy stay and those not. only the yerushalmi mentions the lengthy stay in gehenom. what about the bavli? that says כולן – meaning all that the mishna and gemarah there say dont – see the gemarah there
what about the medrtash shmuel? ramban? emak hamelech
why dont you learn the whole sugya, then ask all your questions at once?!
but here is a clear ari zal בליקוטי הש”ס להאריז”ל מס’ אבות, וז”ל: כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעוה”ב כו’ רק שזה יתקן עצמו בזמן מועט וזה בזמן מרובה אבל סופם הוא להמנות עם הצדיקים ומשום זה שהקב”ה כביכול מטריח את עצמו עם רשעים כאלו לתקנם כו’ ולמה כן בשביל שהם נצר מטעי שהוא נצחיי והם רושם אור עצמותו וכל הנופח מעצמו הוא נופח. עכ”ל.
see also מדרש תלפיות ענף חלק לעוה”ב, בשם ר’ בחיי והריקנטי, וז”ל: מה ששנינו ואלו שאין להם חלק לעוה”ב פירוש אין להם חלק ידוע בפני עצמן, אבל הם נהנים וניזונים מכמה אוצרות של צדקה הגנוזים לאותם שלא זכו.עמה”מ בשער קרית ארבע פקנ”ב מוסיף ביאור וז”ל: אחר ימות המשיח יחדש הק’ עולמו וגם מקום הגיהנם יטוהר ויתקדש ויהי’נוסף על גבולי הג”ע עם הרשעים פושעי ישראל שבתוכה כו’ חצי הגיהנם כלים ויתטהר בקדושת הגן ויהי’ שם מחול הק’ עם הצדיקים.
but let me ask you a question back, the rambam writes אמרו חכמים שלש עבירות נפרעין מן האדם בעולם הזה ואין לו חלק לעולם הבא. עבודת כוכבים וגילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים ולשון הרע כנגד כולם. ועוד אמרו חכמים כל המספר בלשון הרע כאילו כופר בעיקר. שנאמר אשר אמרו ללשוננו נגביר שפתינו אתנו מי אדון לנו. ועוד אמרו חכמים שלשה לשון הרע הורגת. האומרו. והמקבלו. וזה שאומר עליו. והמקבלו יותר מן האומרו:
so he says clearly lashon hara is worse than avoda zara, so before spreaking lashon hara about someone (thinking you have a heter because he’s a kofer or oved avoda zara) you must be very sure becasue your’re risking your chelek of olam haba!!!!!
i dont know who trotsky is, but the gemarah in kidushin talks about jews who serve a”z, the gemarah also talks about oso haish in giten.
time for you to learn chassidus, or at least medrash, agadah, ein yaakov, learn what a jew is. (you can even look in nefesh hachayim)
a jew is one with hashem no matter what, nothing can be higher than being one with g-d, so there can not be levels.To sechel83
How did I speak Loshon Hora? Is it because I compared the Rebbe to Trotsky(look up Leon Trotsky to find out who he was)? I don’t see the problem. You said that every Jew is exactly the same a piece of G-d. It therefore follows, according to you Lubavichers that there’s no difference between the Alter Rebbe and a meshumad. Mainstrwam Jews like myself, of course, reject this , but I’m simply making Diyukim based on “your” statements. Now back to my main point. The sources you presented have nothing to do with the Gemara that says that 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Therefore that Gemara stands and the Rebbe has no justification for rejecting an explicit Gemara.He also had no right to reject the Gemara which said that nevuah ended in Bayis Sheini.
edited
To the group
I spoke to a Lubavicher yesterday and asked him when the Rebbe began to speak about Moshiach’s imminent arrival. He told me it was as soon as he became Nasi. So let’s understand. The Rebbe announced more than seventy years ago that Moshiach is coming. Imminent means any minute, not any century. Anyone can predict that Moshiach will come at some time in the future. A prophecy requires an actual date.
@qwerty613
im not accusing you of speaking lashon hara on what you just said, im just bringing a point that you and some accuse some chabad of avoda zara, or kefira,
which if you speak lashon hara you are worse ולשון הרע כנגד כולם. ועוד אמרו חכמים כל המספר בלשון הרע כאילו כופר בעיקר
and anyone who talks bad against the rebbe or chabad or any other jew is speaking lashon hara.
your arguments are absurd, based on one statement that you heard, you reject the rebbes statement that you didint bother looking at the sorce, and you say the rebbe has no justification. i brought you arizal, מדרש תל תלפיאות, עמק המלך, ramban who say that every jew will have a chelek in techiyas hamasim. go learn.
about your attack on the rebbe for talking about the immanent arrival of moshiach, why dont you attack eliyanu havavi he told reb yehoshua ben levi that moshiach is coming today (the day he asked him) (senhedrin perek chelek) many gedolim gave kitzim for moshiach, go learn! (the rebbe did not give a ketz)
one קץ was תרח, the rebbe maharash asked the tzemach tzedek what happened, why didn’t moshiach come, and he answered that likutai torah was printed, – meaning thru likutai torah one can see g-dliness which is the revelation of moshiach. the frierdiker rebbe said the same for the קץ of תרסו and תרעב, thrue learning these and contemplating on them, one can actually have the revelation of moshiach, (see the sichos for more explanation, and start learning chassidus and recognising g-dliness, actually todays tanya – igeres 26 talks about this)
so the rebbe brought this revelation down to the physical world, its availible for everyone to learn, its explained for anyone on any level, there are shiurim availible in any place in the world thru internet, so thats moshiach, its availible to anyone who wants.
but in the above story the rebbe maharash answered that we want it in actuality. which moshiach told the baal shem tov will happen when everyone actually learns chassidus in a way of understanding in depth. (רעיא מהימנא also says this – tanya ibid.) we hope it will come sooner, achishna, but thats the way al pi teva. (this is my our opinion)To sechel83
I assume you learn Gemara, but I doubt you understand what you study because there are glaring inconsistencies in your writing. First you said that I didn’t speak loshon hora and in the next laeagraph you accused me and other critics of Chabad of speaking loshon hora. That’s one example A second example. You said that if one speaks Loshon hora he lises his Chelek in Olsm Habo But in a different post you said thst every Jew including the worst Roshoim go to Olam Habo. Finally I didn’t call the Rebbe a kofer you did by saying that snyone who rejects a Gemsra is s Kofer and the Rebbe rejected 1/30000.
sechel, you need to stop for a second and organize your education. You quote things left & right, but then before you never heard of major gedolim, now you never heard of major historical figures 100 years ago. So, you hope that you can convince people about what will happen with the world, while you don’t know what happened in that world in both physical and spiritual domains. I would even ask – if you care so much about Hashem’s ways – why not study what was already revealed in history before speculating about mysteries of the future.
To always
Thanks for weighing in, it’s tiresome to go back and forth with sechel. I think it’s time to take a step back. It should be clear to all that neither side will budge the other. This thread was started to convince mainstream Jews that the Rebbe will return to life as Moshiach. Obviously, every rational Jew rejects this. My reason for writing is so that people who are impressed with Chabad, because of their wonderful outreach work will recognize that Chabad’s belief system leaves much to be desired.
To Always
You make an excellent point. Sechel83 wrote, in a different thread, that he relies on and accepts what the Rebbe said 100pwrcent. Therefore it doesn’t matter to him if what he’s saying makes sense. As for Sechel’s unawareness of Gedolim, Lubavichers are taught that no one but the seven Nesiei Chabad count for anything. If you look at the Rebbe’s Yom Yom he only mentions the other six Rebbes. This was a major part of his brainwashing campaign.
@qwerty “You said that if one speaks Loshon hora he lises his Chelek in Olsm Habo But in a different post you said thst every Jew including the worst Roshoim go to Olam Habo. Finally I didn’t call the Rebbe a kofer you did by saying that snyone who rejects a Gemsra is s Kofer and the Rebbe rejected 1/30000.”
you just answered your own question, i meant according to you who think hashem is so strict about olam haba.
(btw side point, olam haba and techiyas hamasim dont always refer to the same thing. olam haba actually has many conditions not olam haba. also olam haba is after – a diffrent stage – the coming of moshiach. see likutai sichos vol 29 bechukosai, maamer kol yisroel from the rebbe, etc.)here’s another gemara (the same page that says 2 in 600k -111a):
With regard to the verse: “For I have taken you to Myself: And I will take out one of a city, and two of a family” (Jeremiah 3:14), Reish Lakish says: The meaning of this statement is as it is written, that only individuals will be spared and the rest will be destroyed. Rabbi Yoḥanan said to him: It is not satisfactory to God, their Master, that you said this about them. Rather, the merit of one from the city causes the entire city to benefit, and the merit of two from a family causes the entire family to benefit and be redeemed. Likewise, the Gemara relates that Rav Kahana sat before Rav, and sat and said: The meaning of this statement is as it is written. Rav said to him: It is not satisfactory to God, their Master, that you said this about them. Rather, the merit of one from the city causes the entire city to benefit, and the merit of two from a family causes the entire family to benefit and be redeemed.
100% i have one rebbe. if i would try to follow everyone well: according to the satmer rebbe – anyone who votes is a kofer and serves a”z. according to other gedolim you need to vote. according to some gedolim – the baal shem tov never existed. its impossible to follow everyone. b”h i was raised chabad!To sechel83
The Vilna Gaon had a brilliant insight, “The simplest answer is the truth.” Your Rebbe rejected the Gemara in Chelek. It’s possible he had a valid rwason for doing so and so he’s not definitely a Kofer, You can’t change the facts. You cancite all the Gemaras you want but they have nothing to do with 1/300,000. Sorry, no one is buying what you’re trying to peddle. Also no mainstream Jew accepts that the Rebbe or any of the Nesiei Chabad were prophets.
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To sechel83
I assume that you’re aware that there’s a war going on now in Israel. This is a time of Divine Judgment. Aren’t you afraid of Him at all? He hates liars. You change your arguments in each posts. Instead of wasting good Jews’ time you should say Tehilim and direct your prayers to the Ribono Shel Olam
To Sechel83
Let me change the narrative. The Rebbwe has a Sichah in which he explaons why he holds that Moshiach will redeem every Jew including Roshoim. A Lubavicher taught me the Sichah about a year ago. If you’re familiar with it then we can discuss it. If you need me to tell you where this Sicha is ask me and I’ll speak to that Lubavicher. The fact is, however, that the Rebbe did not accept the Gemara in Chelek of 1/300,000.
oh so your saying when you have 2 opinions in gemara and someone quotes one he’s regecting a gemara? a kofer?
g-d does not hate jews. its a pusuk, your regecting a pusuk?? ahavti eschem amar hashem, viohev es yaakov!!!the maharal explains on that gemara of 1/300k that it means from all the jews who lived in all the generations, many died or were killed. so what will be left when moshiach comes will be 1/300k. nothing to do with only some jews being redeemed. so by techiyas hamasim the jews will multiply 300k times. because all the jews from all generations will come back
about differences between jews, i dont know where you came up with those things that some jews are not jews ch”v or that hashem does not love some jews?!?!
here’s what the baal shem tov said – 1 example, for more, check the indexes of his seforim.
דער בעש”ט האָט גאָר ברייט אַרומגערעדט און קלאָר דייטליך ערקלערט די הייליגע ג-טליכע ליבשאַפט פון ג-ט ב”ה צו אידן, די ליבשאַפט פון ג-ט ב”ה צו די אידן איז ניט נאָר צו דער אידישער נשמה נאָר אויך דעם אידישן קערפּער, און די ג-טליכע ליבשאַפט איז צו אַלע געבאָרענע אידן אָן אונטערשייד, פון דעם גאון הגאונים ביז דעם פּשוט שבפּשוטים. דער גאון הגאונים האָט ג-ט ב”ה ניט מער
ליב ווי דעם פּשוט שבפּשוטים, און דעם אידישן פּשוט שבפּשוטים האָט ג-ט ב”ה ניט ווייניגער ליב ח”ו ווי דעם גאון הגאוניםספרי הבעל שם טוב > כתר שם טוב > הוספות > פח
@qwerty the rebbe has thousends of sichos. there are almost 200 volumes printed of the sichos he said. you are right he said many many times that ALL jews will be redeemed. in his printed sichos there are sources for everything. check there. anyway in 1943 ר’ דוד שטוקהאמער sent a letter to the rebbe with the following question: שמעתי אומרים אשר, ע”פ המבואר בדא”ח, כל אחד מישראל, יהי’ מי שיהי’, ואפילו רשע גמור כל ימיו, ר”ל, יש לו תקוה. וסוף סוף, אם ברצונו או על ידי כפי’ מלמעלה, בחייו או לאחר מותו, מעלין אותו משערי הטומאה אשר נשקע בהם, מעבירין אותו דרך כמה ענינים של טהרה וזיכוך, עד אשר גם הוא דבק ומתאחד בשרשו ומקורו אוא”ס ב”ה.
ולכאורה תמוהה שמועה זו ביותר, וכמה סתירות ע”ז מן הכתוב וממרז”ל.
the rebbe responded with a 13 page letter (printed in igros kodesh vol 1 letter #85) going thru all the gemaras and other sources and explaining them
(in those days people had the decency to ask if they had a question rather than attack, as the rebbe was knows by all to be one of the greatest gedolim alive. for example rav hutner wondered about the rebbe’s idea to put tefillin on jews, so he wrote to the rebbe to explain some questions he had about it (find it in מנחם משיב נפשי) (even R shach sent someone to ask a question to the rebbe about something in kabala because he didn’t know, and knew the rebbe would know – i thing yeshiva wold wrote an article about it)
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