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Square root- its part of the story told on yud Tes Kislev- I don’t know the source in the books offhand
To thw group
The sources are in books whose veracity is questionable at best.
If the Melech HaMashiach can come from the dead, then how do you know for sure that Shabetai Tzvi was not the Melech HaMashiach?
Even if you say that he failed to fulfill the prophecies from Tanach, you could say that he will fulfill the prophecies from Tanach, when he comes back to life again.If the Melech HaMashiach can come from the dead, then how do you know for sure that the-founder-of-a-certain-religion was not the Melech HaMashiach?
Even if you say that he failed to fulfill the prophecies from Tanach, you could say that he will fulfill the prophecies from Tanach, when he comes back to life again.Once you accept the Melech HaMashiach from the dead,
then ANYONE be the Melech HaMashiach!!! ANYONE!!!And if you say that ANYONE did not fulfill the prophecies from Tanach,
you could say that he will fulfill the prophecies from Tanach,
when he comes back to life again.The question that still has not been answered is how is it possible that before 3 Tammuz ABSOLUTELY EVERY LUBAVICHER rejected the notion that Mashiach could be someone who had died, and then they did an about face after 3 Tammuz. Btw I am not exaggerating the facts. I have been around Lubavich, a very long time and I remember the “proof” that the then-live Lubavicher rebbe was Mashiach was the claim that Mashiach has to be someone alive and, of course, there is no one more fitting than the L rebbe.
As I wrote in another thread, the only consistent Lubavichers are the crazies who say that he did not die.
The problem is, and this has been pointed out by others and by myself in the past, that we start with the result, the Lubavicher rebbe must be Mashiach, and then we work around the facts – either rejecting or modifying them – in order not to question the result. Much like the moshol of the Dubno Maggid about the fool who used to fire the arrow first and then draw the bullseye around it.
@anypotato
….then say we reject him because he died without bringing the redemption as a fraud and grotesque manipulation of the truth and an insult to the martyrs who died Al kiddish Hashem…..
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Thats exactly what the RMBAN writes .
We know he is not mashiach because he died and the nevua of the nevi’im did not materialise in his lifetime .
The Ramban was not ‘manipulating the truth’ chvsh . Neither did he ‘insult’ the martyrs .
I happen to know , however, of some other people attempting to manipulate the truth .
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Manipulating the truth for their own benefit .To any
Why are you Lubavichers so obsessed with convincing mainstream Jews that the Rebbe is, or will be Moshiach?
To any
Read what you wrote to ARSo,”They believed he was Moshiach when he was alive and so they believed he was Moshiach when he died.” “They” means Lubavichers and only Lubavichers. Therefore since “they” believed he was Moshiach when he was alive “they” also believed he was Moshiach when he died. Now why did Lubavichers believe the Rebbe was Moshiach when he was alive? It’s because he said or hinted that he was. This created the mass hysteria. Therefore, when you try to convince rational people that the Rebbe is Moshiach and he will return from the dead we’re not buying any of it. At the same time, I won’t try to talk you out of your belief because you’re not ready, willing or able to accept the truth.
anyPotao to me: “can people on this thread speak to the lamdus of the sefer as it relates to Chazal, rishonim, acharonim and Rambam without speaking about Lubavitch?”
This is so typical of Lubavich. Trying to force the discussion into an area where you won’t feel uncomfortable.
I’m not dealing with the sefer, and I don’t even know which sefer you’re talking about. And as to your reply to my claim that when he was alive ALL Lubavichers, without exception, claimed Mashiach has to be someone who is alive, you are distorting the facts.
I personally heard many Lubavichers giving public shiurim say that 1. Mashiach has to be someone who is alive, and 2. Who alive is more worthy than the Lubavicher rebbe (In this post I’m not going to argue how this last claim does not hold water). You claim that they believed that Mashiach has to be someone who is alive only because they believed their rebbe was Mashiach. If that was their reasoning, they hid it and lied, because they claimed the reverse, as I explained, that because it has to be someone who is alive it must be their rebbe.
Kugel, as I mentioned earlier, I won’t read the book because it contains kefirah. If you want to study the New Testament so that you could properly understand Christianity’s arguments before dismissing them, then I’d say you have a right to ask that we read your book.
As for other possibilities for Mashiach if he can come from the dead, well then, R’ Akiva thought that Bar Kochba was Mashiach. Maybe that’s who it would be? I’d trust R’ Akiva more than any Chabadnik – more than anyone alive today, honestly.To Any
I assume that this book which “proves” that the Rebbe will retuen to fulfill his Messianic dream was written recently. Now before Gimmel Tammuz all Lubavichers believed that the Rebbe would become Moshiach while he was alive. So hete’s the question, “For tje past 30 years between the time of the Rebbe’s death and the book how did you know he’d return from the dead?”
@qwerty 613
thanks for explaining me, i was not at all trying to tell non lubavitchers to believe that the rebbe is moshe rabainu, and moshiach and alive, i was just trying to point out someone who explains alot of chabad’s opinion, and how its logical, and an accepted viewTo sechel83
So you’re now saying that the point of advertising Rabbi Bechpfer’s video is to justify Chabad’s belief that the Rebbe will come back to life and be Moshiach. If that’s your point and you’re not trying to convince non Lubavichers of your belief then fine. I do ‘t care if you continue to hold out hope. But here’s the problem. Why do so many of your landsmen not agree with you that the Rebbe will return from the dead and bece Moshiach? They claim that he never died and he is already Moahiach. Would you care to comment about them?
@anypotato
This not merely a quote as a record of what Ramban happened to say in an argument with a Min .
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THIS IS A QUOTE OF WHAT RAMBAN HIMSELF WROTE FOR THE JEWS , AND EXPRESSLY DISTRIBUTED TO THE JEWS – AS PROPER HASHKAFA.
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Without any ‘manipulation’ for his own benefit [chvsh].
The Emet as it is ….
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“We know he is not mashiach because he died and the nevua of the nevi’im did not materialise in his lifetime .” [Leshono HaTahor Shel Rabban Shel Yisrael HaRamban Zatsal]
.As r Zusya compared his piece of bread with a stone to Pharaoh’s, I feel how insignificant I am. If I were to establish a Yom tov for every time I was lectured by a Chabadnik who didn’t care for my opinion, I’ll be drunk the whole year!
> moshol of the Dubno Maggid about the fool who used to fire the arrow first and then draw the bullseye around
I read this moshal as an explanation of his great speaking abilities@ was I wrong?! Important to know as I am borrowed this trick!
@any potato
Sorry , but habad lost their ne’emanut in these matters a long time ago .
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It is crystal clear to any impartial bystander that they have one goal and one goal only . And that they are determined to get there , no matter the cost , no matter the acrobatics .
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There is a source to totally negate the whole mashiach from the dead idea , MUCH MORE POWERFUL AND CONVINCING that any ramban or r akiva or other relatively ‘small’ people [evidently meant sarcastically].
HABAD itself , based on the greatest human who ever tread on this Earth , all its rabbanim mashpi’im and its chozer have conclusively determined that it is AXIOMATIC in the Jewish Religion that mashiach comes only from the living .
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Who has any use for any ‘sefer’ printed in lakewood when it has the chutspa to disagree with all of the above ?
Can’t understand how you can even think differently ….Interestingly, Torah is advocating a high stake experiment to determine a navi – be right or die. At the same time, as mentioned here, same moschihists had one opinion before Rebbe was niftar and another after. Al pi reb Karl popper, a theory is a statement that can be, in thought experiment, be proven wrong. A position that can be modified to be true for any possible event is not a theory. So, this approach seems to contradict the posuk
Dennis Prager suggests that we can partner on practice with peo6who believe that M already came before. When M comes. We’ll figure it out, but we can work for common goals before that.
Maybe the same principle can apply here?Yes, AlwaysAsk, the moshol was about the Dubno Maggid himself and his mesholim, but I used it to illustrate Lubavichers who make a baseless decision and then twist pesukim, Chazal etc to show that they are right.
To ANY
I returned to the beginning of the thread and read your comment, “No one can be called Moshiach until he completes the Messianic mission, eg. rebuilding the Bes Hamikdosh, kibbutz galiyos etc.)” So we completely agree on this point. Here’s my question, “What do you say about your landsmen who have declared that the Rebbe is, at this moment, Moshiach?”Thanks. I got scared I misunderstood the maggid. The moshal you might use is the one about someone who has answers and not questions…
חזקת משיח is not the same thing as ראוי להיות משיח or משיח שבדור the latter means absolutely nothing halachicly its just a term used out of respect for a big צדיק who you feel might be cwalefid for the job if Hashem decides to bring משיח in his generation.חזקת משיח however is a halachic term for someone who has the סימנים of the rambam including being a king in א״י and having the majority of yiden ander his control and successfully enforcing all the מצות and all this without any one being Abel to stop him and if someone is בחזקת משיח then as far as we are concerned he is the גואל צדק the only difference between him and משיח ודאי is that the latter’s חזקה can’t be בטול ever and someone who is just חזקת משיח his חזקה could be בטול however until proven wrong he is halachicly משיח. When it talks about someone’s חזקה being proven wrong if he dies or he fails it’s talking about someone who was בחזקת משיחwhich is the same thing as the גואל צדק.in the ספר ציצת נובל צבי from ר׳ יעקב ששפורט against שבתאי צבי ימ״ש he writes that ש״צ can’t be בחזקת משיח because he is in jail and the true משיח’s מלכות can’t fail even לפי שעה. We know also that בר כוכבא lost his חזקת משיח even according to ר״ע when he was killed
@anypotato
“….It’s not shayach b’metzius for a Rishon acharon or posek halacha to rule against Moshiach coming from the meisim…..”
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So pray tell , how was it shayech for ALL habad rabbanim mashpi’im and their rebbe that it is impossible to have mashiach come from the meisim ?@any i mentioned before that your “rebbe” said that קיבוץ גלויות allredy started and you said i’m misquoting him and he never said that i don’t know when I listened to the recording of his דרשה I heard him saying that קיבוץ גליות started and in the written shicha it Olso says that any one could look it up or hear the recording so I don’t know why you say that I’m misquoting him
To the group
The Gemara cites the Tanna, R Shimon Haamsuni who made it his life’s work to Darshen all the “essim” of the Torah. When he came to a certain Posuk whose “ess” he felt he couldn’t explain, R Shimon disbanded his life’s work. This is the pinnacle of intellectual honesty. In contrast, numerous questions have been posed to the Lubavichers in this and other threads and they’re batting a robust .000. Still they hold on to the belief that their Rebbe is the long-awaited Redeemer. We can explain their intransigence with a pithy aphorism, “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up.” There are two chances of the Rebbe being Moshiach, slim and none.
To any
If normal Jews humor you and pretend to accept your nonsense can we end this thread?
Half of my posts are not published .
Why ?This thread is closed for Yomin Naroim and will reopen when M[o|a]shiach comes, bemeheta b’yomenu.
But let me attempt to have the last vort: R Yaakov Kamenetsky when visiting EY, suggested that Moschiach will come from R Auerbach’s yeshiva because they had their top shiurim in Ivrit instead of usual Yiddish. This psak should clarify the issue.
To always
The only thing we learn from Jewish history is that no one, except Hashem, knows the identity of Moshiach and when he will arrive. Rav Yaakov’s guess, it’s not a Psak, is as valid, or as meaningless as what Chabad tries shoving down our throats. A Jew is obligated in Torah and Mitzvohs and not in idle speculation about Moshiach. Yes, we all want Moshiach, but the Chafetz Chaim taught us how to ask Hashem to send our Redeemer, devote oneself to Torah study, particularly Kodshim and Taharos. Edited
Potato: “check out psak din dot com that gives the halachic reasoning as to the Rebbe being for sure the one who will be Goel Tzedek. If you appreciate the reasoning good. Of not then it’s considered a machloikes haposkim, unless you can refute the reasoning with sources.”
It’s not called a machlokes haposkim if one side has a clear agenda to pasken a certain way, and they misconstrue Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim to “prove” that they are right.
You might as well say that whether Conservative Judaism is legitimate or not is a machlokes haposkim as there are ordained rabbis who are Conservative. And to take it one step further, is it a machlokes haposkim in regards to J being the messiah (lehavdil, of course) because there are ‘rabbis’ who believe in him nowadays?
Potato: “what do you think of your landsmen that are not suffering from a shaas hadachak but not keeping cholov yisroel? And the ones who are benei Torah learning in kollel that are married and not worried about Parnasa that they go clean shaven?”
(Disclaimer: I keep cholov Yisroel, and I have never shaven my beard BH.)
I believe there are heteirim for eating what R Moshe Feinstein referred to as ‘cholov hacompanies’ even if it’s not a shaas hadchak. And I know that there are major poskim who say it is muttar lechatchilah to shave even without any concern of parnassa.
Just because you’re rabbonim may disagree with those opinions, those who act in accordance with those opinions have no need to justify their actions to fit in with your rabbonim.
To any
Now you really have me confused. If you look at what you just wrote you’re now adding the friedige rebbe as Moshiach. So how does this work the Rebbe will be the actual Moshiach and the Rayatz will be Moshiach emeritus or will they be co captains? I’ll correct you on one point. You rely on your Rabbis to tell you who Moshiach is, real Jews undetstand that Hashem, and only Hashem will make that decision.
Qwerty, r Kamenetsky said so because shiur b Ivrit showed that the yeshiva cared about klal Yisrael, allowing Sephardim to access these classes. THAT is a pre requisite for a movement to contain a potential moshiach
From this point of view, Chabad hugely qualifies due to their great work, but at the same time disqualifies with this silly partisanship… hope both Chabad and their critics fix their own problems and compete in caring for the klal rather than in putting each other down.שטייענדיק אין דעם יום סגולה פון ערב ראש השנה ה’תשנ”ב, הי’ תהא שנת נפלאות בכל — וואָס ער איז אויך דער יום הולדת פון דעם צמחצדק — ובסיום וחותם פון חודש אלול ר”ת “אני לדודי ודודי לי”86, מיט די אַלע פינף ראשי תיבות פון אלול כנגד די ג’ קוים ועמודים פון תורה עבודה וגמילות חסדים, און תשובה וגאולה87 — איז אַ זיכערע זאַך אַז שטייענדיק אין אַ מצב פון “ודודי לי” בענטשט דער אויבערשטער יעדער איד און אַלע אידן נאָך אין חודש אלול מיט “בכל מכל כל”, “מידו המלאה הפתוחה הקדושה והרחבה”88, סיי ברוחניות און סיי בגשמיות, און סיי שניהם יחד, ביז אין אַן אופן אַז זיי ווערן איין זאַך.
וע”פ פס”ד הטור הנ”ל אַז שוין בערב ראש השנה זיינען אידן “לובשים לבנים ומתעטפים לבנים” — איז מובן אַז נאָך בערב ראש השנה באַקומט מען שוין די התחלה פון אַלע המשכות והשפעות ואורות, ועאכו”כ — אַלע כחות, סיי ….
ברוחניות סיי בגשמיות…………ובפרט אַז יעדערער וועט זיכער אויסנוצן דעם טאָג אויף מוסיף זיין אין עניני צדקה און אין כמה ענינים טובים, ובמיוחד — אין דעם ענין שהזמן גרמא — יום הולדת פון צמחצדק — דורך לערנען מתורתו און מקיים זיין הוראותיו.
וכאמור — ביום זה עצמו זאָל קומען די גאולה האמיתית והשלימה ע”י משיח צדקנו, תיכף ומיד ממש..
To Always ask
You’re making a great point and I’d like to expand on it. When Rav Yaakov said that Moshiach would come from Rabbi Auerbach’s yeshiva he wasn’t stating a prophecy, or even making a prediction. Rather he was trying to impress on people that Moshiach will bring all Jews together and so a Yeshiva that meets the needs of Ashkenazim and Sefardim is what Hashem is looking for. In contrast, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe was a Novi and so they take each of his words Kipshuto. That’s why they twist themselves into a pretzel trying to resolve his contradictory statements.
MisheMetu Hananye Misha’el Ve Azarya Batla Ruach HaKodesh [Gmara Yuma , Sanhedrin]
To yankel berel
Your point is well taken but Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe should be trusted over the Gemara.@Qwerty
The glaring inconsistencies of modern habad theology are so glaring that it serves as a perfect example of ‘en adam ro’eh et mumei atsmo’.
Besides, the fallacy of the equation of criticism of modern habad theology with sin’at hinam, reminds me of the leftists in Israel employing so called ‘demoktratsia’ as a rallying cry for their troops.
In fact , arguments about our mesorah , serve as an iron guarantor of the veracity of said mesorah . Imagine impostors through the ages , attempting to corrupt it . They would be greeted by howls of protest. Those very howls of protest are the surest indicator that no corruption occurred. And are not at all an indicator of so called ‘sin’at hinam’ [chvsh].
It is perfectly possible to criticize habad theology and still love the habad hasidim .To yankel berel
Again, you’re spot on. The simple truth is that Chabad is trapped by its need to “prove” its lies. Actually I saw the same thing in another thread. I criticized Rabbi Miller, mildly, and one of his followers twisted the truth to defend him. It’s not the Jewish way to believe in perfect leaders. At the same time we must always be respectful to those who devote themselves to the Torah. Finally, the moderators deserve credit for maintaining civility in these discussions.
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