The final word on Moshiach from the meisim (hopefully!)

Btw a second coming is just a Christian as the idea of moshiach itself- ie it’s a Jewish idea too. Sorry you haven’t seen it. Rashi on Daniel, and also Medrash on how moshiach will resemble the goel rishon Moshe Rabbeinu, by first being revealed, then concealed, then revealed again. If you want exact lshonos I quoted them early on in the 5 potential candidates thread.

The Rebbe also wrote in reshimos about Eliyahu hanavi (why should we expect moshiach daily if Eliyahu hasn’t come yet) we don’t know if he’ll come in the first stage of moshiach (when he’s revealed to those that know him) or the third stage- when he’s revealed to all. (Middle stage I think was fighting the wars of Hashem- don’t trust me, find and post it- haven’t seen it in over a decade i think)

Yankel Berel- I think Chabad lost face when they u turned on the Rebbe being moshiach- because Moshiach has to be from the living. As they said then. That did seem the straight path forward. However, Hashem has a different path in mind, and we are where we are now. We still believe the Rebbe has a good reason to tell us all these Moshiach hints- even if the straightforward path was the other way. We also know that (remind me the source) it will be a test to believe in moshiach it will be like holding onto a flimsy rope- and towards the end the rope will be shaken. But we’re also prepared. We’re devoted heart and soul to The Rebbe, but our Rebbe had no life other than serving Hashem, and klal Yisrael. So we’re not giving The Rebbe any more than he gave us for sure- and much less. An arrogant person comes across as arrogant- and people dislike arrogant people. If our Rebbe felt the need to tell us these Moshiach secret stuff, it was only there to benefit our Avodas Hashem, and bring moshiach much closer, since the geula is more tangible to us who live by The Rebbes teachings, than ever.

Many Chassidim were uncomfortable with the intensifying moshiach sichos- we already have much to be proud of, and we didn’t want to become laughingstocks. But The Rebbe guided us towards our mission and let us with the keys.

That’s my bottom line. Also that I heard on this form that to think The Rebbe is moshiach is kefira etc. so I spent time doing my due diligence in learning and researching the topic. You can find my posts with sources in the 5 potential candidates thread.

Just to add that in addition to my own research I checked with three respected Torah voices within Chabad (2 Rabbanim, 1 RY) 1 more meshichist, 1 decidedly not (less), and one towards the middle.

To moderator

You’re asking me to tone down my rhetoric, but “any” makes baseless accusations against me. If you’ve learned one thing about me from this and other posts, I don’t lie.

You are being asked to stop the personal attacks. As in ‘you are just a …’ as opposed to ‘your opinion is….’

To any

I told you more than once that I didn’t see his Psak. I’m relyi.g on the word of others. If you want to know whether such a psak exits just ask the Mechaber. Look to me it’s totally irrelevant. Thete’s no reason to think that the Rebbe is Moshiach.

Chabad will never understand, that even if the Melech HaMashiach came from the dead, it could be any of these great tzadikim, all of which were descendants of David HaMelech:

KING SOLOMON
KING HEZEKIAH
ISAIAH THE PROPHET
KING JOSIAH
RABBENU HAKODESH (COMPILER OF THE MISHNAH)
RABBI ELIEZER HASANDLAR (FROM TALMUD).
MAHARAL OF PRAGUE
RABBI ELIMELECH OF LIHZENSK
MANY OTHERS

In other words, proving Melech HaMashiach from the dead does NOT prove that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Melech HaMashiach — far from it.

Additionally, Chabad is NOT debating in good faith.
They are not searching for the truth about the Melech HaMashiach;
they just want to “win” by any means possible.

I cannot remember even ONE person from Chabad who believed in Melech HaMashiach from the dead, when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was alive and healthy — only AFTER he died, did Melech HaMashiach from the dead become popular with Chabad!

@CS
they lost face at the time of their first uturn . After years of strenuously accusing those who said that habad is [secretly] promoting their rebbi as mashiach . They accused them of sinas chinam [sounds familiar ..].
It was all one big libel against them .
They even mobilised all other hasidim to defend them against those ‘haters’ , who accused them of this blood libel , as if they want to promote their rebbi as mashiach .
Then they made a [huge] uturn, discrediting themselves .
Acknowledging their own rebbi’s messiahship.
And in the process , give huge credence to those so called ‘haters’ , who were busy with so called sinas chinam ……
That was only uturn number one ……

Yankel Berel I appreciate the sentiment of ahavas Yisrael behind your last post, and therefore I wish you (and whoever else wishes) to enjoy life the way I do (if you don’t already): to live with Menuchas hanefesh (regardless of menuchas haguf), menuchas haguf, that learning Torah should be your main enjoyment in life along with doing mitzvos bhiddur (in different ways but both deeply joyful- so that you want to find more ways to keep mitzvos bhiddur, that you be engaged all day in activities that give Hashem nachas, and have Him in mind no matter what the activity, that your children outsurpass you with their (serious) goals in Avodas Hashem at a young age, and that you feel a palpable excitement for Yiddishkeit to the point that anything else is beyond worthless, and finally that you aim to and get the most out of golus avoda, while preparing yourself and others for the Geula Shleima. All in a spirit of simcha. Ksiva Vachasima tova lshana tova umesuka!

To yankel berel

I get the sense that CS recognizes the truth, but he feels that he can’t betray his religion.

Just to give context to my last post (for those who don’t get subtlety)

A) I wanted to express goodwill
B) I wanted to show the pity/ sympathy is misplaced

Reason:
A) I believe the Chabad questioners here are coming from a good place (they believe they’re defending Hashem’s honor/ Yiddishkeit’s integrity) and I appreciate that. There’sa story of R Adam Baal Shem who was given great honor when he was anonymous because of his geonus etc, but when his identity was found out, there were misnagdim who were ready to attack him with stones. He said that the stones were more precious to him than the honor the day before.

Likewise… people here are uneducated on Chabad (you need to get into The Rebbe’s Torah and hear from people who actually interacted with him to assess properly) but I’m glad they care about Torah and yiddishkeit so I wish them all the brachos.

B) I’m living up life bH (as expressed in the specific Brachos shared- (besides for menuchas haguf which is completely out of my control- but I don’t worry about it either…) and I don’t need the pity. I wish everyone was
living such a life if not better…

Ps. I’m a truth seeker and as noted did my research Prus asked Rabbanim etc on this issue, so that’s that. Ive examined everything mentioned and found one incorrect practice in my surroundings which I have recently asked my colleagues to correct. If something stands between me and Hashem, I give it up. There’s no torn etc

Qwerty
Interesting. I do know that 4 Chabad Chassidim were beaten to death by misnagdim in sventzian (see the making of Chassidim). The Berditchover and R shmelke and others were also majorly persecuted.

There were no retaliations as far as I know. In fact, the Alter Rebbe famously wrote about not even whistling back after he was released (he was put in jail by misnagdim.)

> Gaon’s rhetoric caused the blood of Chassidim to flow like water.

I don’t know whether this was a forgery or not, but blood (on both sides) might be referring to attempts to appeal to Russian authorities who used such reports to clump down on both sides. Alter Rebbe was not whistling back, except lamenting of a “torture” of being released into a misnagdish home after being released from the prison.

To Always

Yes I’m familiar with what the Baal Hatanya allegedly said about Notkin but here’s my point. First off we have to realize that thete are the Kherson forgeries which means that we can’t be sure that quotes attributed to the Alter Rebbe were actually said by him. In fact it makes no sense that he publicly insulted Notkin because that’s Loshon Hora and I highly doubt that such a Tzaddik would ever speak loshon hora. But even if we dismiss the Kherson forgeries as a snag lie the question is why Chabad continues to teach its minions this period of history. I’m close to many Chassidim and it means nothing to them. Their families were
wiped out by the Holocaust so they’re going to care that their alter Zeides were spit on?. I went to a Chassidishe yeshiva for the first 4 grades and Litvish for the last 8 and I never heard of those fights. I learned about it in college in a Judaic studies class. It’s time for Lubavichers to put that part of their past away. It does nothing but sow hatred.

QWERTY….. yawn….

Aren’t you bored of this yet?

Qwerty thanks for the compliment.
Honestly I haven’t heard of the Kherson forgeries and I’m not too interested in looking them up because it’s mainly irrelevant to my life today. I’ll keep it in mind though if someone does bring it up. Recently I bought a book and then heard that it wasn’t100% accurate. I’m a bit annoyed because I only want truthful books in my house and now I don’t know what’s true and what’s not. And it was a gift… generally, within Chabad historical stories are taken very seriously as far as being careful with accuracy so if this matter would come up, I’d have to look into it to see if your assertion is correct.

Regarding AAQs comment, the Alter Rebbe didnt sneer this back at the misnagdim, he merely confided to Chassidim that having a fellow Jew interrogated him over Chassidus etc, was more painful than all the time in jail. That is understandable. He was a person who didn’t care for gashmius as much as things that were nogeia l nefesh

Now, in lubavitch we learn that in the time of the Tzemach Tzedek already, there was peace between the Chassidim and misnagdim

To lostspark

I know how much you enjoy my writing and respect my opinions, C”V that I should stop and deprive you. Lol

if anyone wants to understand why chabad says that the rebbe is moshiach, and not previous tzadikim, and wants a makor in rambam igeres techiyas hamasim that moshiach can be from the dead, why some chabad says the rebbe is still alive, and what that means, and more… search “the rebbe shlita melech hamoshiach” on you tube. there is a series of shiurim from a litvak – rabbi yosef gavriel bechhover – on this topic.

@ arso
Can someone cite for me the first source for the celebration of 20 Kislev being due to the Baal Hatanya being taken to the misnaged’s house?

It seems so strange – according to the story he said that the hours he spent in the misnaged’s house were worse than the entire time he spent in prison – to have a MAJOR celebration based on that. Furthermore, it seems so out-of-sync with today’s Lubavich and their claimed love of every Yid.
——-
Question back – Re ahavat yisrael .

Who does a habad hasid love more ? a mechalel shabbat [even shana upiresh] or a frum ‘mitnaged’ ?
.

To sechel83

Your latest attempt to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach reminds me of something that happened almost 50 years ago. My Organic Chemistry professor was Dr. Leon Gortler. He was brilliant, Harvard-educated, and a real mensch. He told me the following, “I can prove anything and the opposite of that thing.” His point was that if someone has expertise in a particular area he can prove whatever he chooses to prove. Yoshke’s disciples could “prove” that he was Moshiach and the same for Shabbetai Tzvi’s followers. None of these so-called proofs impress rational Torah-based Jews. But if you want to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach gezunterheit.

To CS
Thanks for your response. You write quite nicely and clearly but here’s the problem(s). Could the Baal Hatanya really have felt that an hour of harassment from this Misnagid was worse than 52 days in a Russian prison? Second, how could the Baal Hatanya, who was as close as possible to being a perfect Tzaddik, speak such blatant Loshon hora? The way one determines truth is by keeping an open mind. I’m stating that we learn from the Kherson forgeries that Lubavichers have a long history of changing stories to fit their agendas. Since you claim to be a person of truth that should be troubling to you. And I’m not insinuating that Chabad is the only organization that does this. I turned off from Rabbi Avigdor Miller because there were statements he made that were troublesome to me. How did I deal with this? I spoke to Rabbonim whose opinions I trust.The problem is that I highly doubt that you can find anyone reliable in Crown Heights to ask since everyone seems to be toeing the party line.

To the group

Sechel83 directed us to a YouTube video called, “The Rebbe shlita Melech Hamoshiach.” given by a Litvak named Rabbi Gavriel Bechofer. His implied message was that this clip would convince non Lubavichers that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Rabbi Bechofer, who is obviously a Talmid Chacham, said as follows, “According to Rambam it’s possible that Moshiach will come from the dead.” Now that’s not earth-shattering because he’s simply reiterating what the Gemara says. The Rabbi then added that this fact means nothing to anyone outside of Chabad because mainstream Judaism sees no reason why the Rebbe would be chosen to return from the dead over any number of Torah giants such as the Chasam Sofer, Rav Moshe, Rav Shlomo Zalman, you get the point. Thank you sechel83 for bringing this video to our attention as it only confirms what non-Lubavichers have been saying throughout this and all other threads on various sites. The Rebbe is no different than any other scholar who died. That Lubavichers believe otherwise is not worth trying to refute. We’ll apply this saying to Chabad, “Don’t confuse me with the facts my mind’s made up.”

To CS

I took you at your word that you’re looking for the truth but I see that you’re going into Chabad defense mode. As I clearly explained, there are only two ways to understand the Notkin story. Either the Baal Hatanya spoke lishan hora, which is highly unlikely or the story is a lie. I don’t intend to discuss this any further, You’re free to believe what you want.