- This topic has 49 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
FACT: “The evil monster” NEED’S HELP
im one of very few people in this world that try to see only good in people yet here we have a man a “yid” that has done something VERY VERY VERY BAD
and i was one of the people searching for hours and hours
i was at the funeral and was crying crying crying
and yet i cant help myself to feel for him “the evil monster”
the pain he has done is unimaginable to the victims family and klal yisroel
but he still “the evil monster” is still one of us A YID!
am i wrong for trying to think positively about him?
maybe one thing led to another? or he went crazy?or he…..
be “dan likav schus”
im not saying free him but maybe a mental institution?
dont talk “L’horah”
I think the pain is still too raw for anyone to think anything nice about him. I think his details show that he deserves murder- he had no issue giving out all the details like that?
love a yid – In actuality, he probably is crazy, not just evil.
The problem is in America’s Justice system if he is declared insane, he goes to a jail for the criminally insane. So you say -what’s wrong with that? I’ll tell you – because one day they can declare him normal and he would be freed, as opposed if they give him a sentence of life without a chance of parole!
A number of years ago, Tookie Williams was on death row in CA, for killing people in cold blood. While waiting for his turn in the chair, he started to do outreach work with gangs and turned a number of teens and young adults back on the normal civil path.
So what to do with this Tookie? Let him go, because now he’s turned a new leaf and is doing much good and if we cook him, his outreach will stop?
Or do we fry him because of his past deeds?
It was being debated on talk radio, and one of the callers made a very good point. He said forgiveness is G-Ds department. G-d gave us the job of ensuring that justice is served.
A life was taken, and our responsibility is to be sure that the life does not go without having justice served. Its not about feeling sorry for the criminal or about revenge. Its about justice and about making sure that people know that rules of society are meant to be followed. And if those rules are broken, there is a steep price to pay.
bpt, that is not true. We are supposed to forgive people as well. There are different aspects – bein adam laMakom and bein adom lachaveiroh. We can forgive for our part, and Hashem needs to forgive His part as well.
BPT well said. We are in horror and shock from this horrific senseless killing. This murderer deserves to be hung up in Times Square for all to see and left to be eaten by the birds – and even that is too good.
May the mourning Family and Klall Yisrael have much nechama and may Yehuda ben Nachman A’H be a meilitz yashar and may he beseech H’KBH to bring the much needed achdus and geulah for Klall Yisrael immediately. Besuros tovos be karov. Amen!
He made a conscious decision to kill the child. He’s admitted as much. Based on what’s reported of his confession, he knew what he did was wrong when he did it, and was not under any sort of cognitive misapprehension which gives rise to an insanity defense. If New York had a working death penalty statute, this case would cry out for that sentence. As to the Tookie Williams problem, this is why Halacha mandates execution the same day as the verdict, so as to not allow the creation of such dilemmas.
The Torah position is very clear with people who commit capital offences.
Justice needs to be served in a moral society. We have no ability or right to forgive him – that is between him and G-d. On the contrary, putting him to death is part of his atonement process.
However, there are also rules as to how he is to be treated. He is still a Jew and he may not be degraded. Before being put to death he is told to repent and reminded that if he does so he STILL MERITS A PORTION IN OLOM HABA.
Remember, Kayin killed Hevel in cold blood and his Tshuvah was accepted.
Also to one of the previous posters who used the word ‘Yimach Shmo’ about Aron. I once heard that however low a Jew has sunk, (and I think Aron, if he is sane has hit the bottom) those words are never allowed to be used about Jews aside for two individuals who were Meshichei Sheker (one was Shabsai Zvi, the other is probably not a good idea to post on a public forum)
“We are supposed to forgive people as well”
You have a point. We need to be forgiving for what people do to us.
We do NOT need to forgive them for what they do to others.
And we can never forget what was done, so that future generations are protected from a repeat (hashen yirachem).
hey who?
During the arraignment, his lawyer stated that Aron hears voices and has hallucinations. If this is true, he is paranoid schizophrenic. I can guarantee you that he will be examined very, very carefully. If he is really medically insane he will be locked up and possibly never freed, since his freedom would depend on whether he was improved enough to release. Very, very few psychiatrists would take the chance that he is no longer dangerous. Years ago there was a tendency to release, but a few horrendous crimes by released patients have made doctors much more careful.
The big question is: If he is really mentally ill, why isn’t he under the care of a doctor? Most schizophrenics can function normally or nearly so with proper medication. In addition, msny untreated patients try to “medicate” themselves by using illegal drugs, which only makes things worse. We need to do a better job of making sure the mentally ill in our community are treated properly.
Otherwise, we risk more tragedies.
Edited
He said that he thinks what he did was wrong…hes not even sure!!!!!!!!!!!!
ontheball- “Also to one of the previous posters who used the word ‘Yimach Shmo’ about Aron. I once heard that however low a Jew has sunk, (and I think Aron, if he is sane has hit the bottom) those words are never allowed to be used about Jews aside for two individuals who were Meshichei Sheker (one was Shabsai Zvi, the other is probably not a good idea to post on a public forum)”
Rav Lazer Silver zt’l one year at an Agudah convention had everyone say “Ben Gurion, Yimach Shimo”. The words yimach shimo are from tehillim, and have been used throughout the generations for wicked people. Unless you show me a source otherwise I can see nothing wrong with saying Yimach Shemo on Levi Aron.
love a yid- Look at the Ramabam in peirush hamishnayos onbeing dan lekaf zechus. He says that the idea is that if you see someone do something and you have 2 ways to explain it, one being good and one bad, you should assume good. When someone murders this is certainly not applicable, there is no good murder. The Rambam adds that for a tzadik you should always assume good no matter how far fetched it is. Certainly, Levi Aron does not fall into this category.
I also heard that Y”S should never be used on a Yid, no matter how bad. (I don’t know or remember the reason/source.)
Just keep in mind that Levi Aron will most likely be killed in prison if he doesn’t commit suicide…..
will we be saying “allright that pig is dead” when he is killed by some guy in jail?
newhere – the meaning of the words ‘yimach shmo’ contradicts the fact that he merits Olom Haba. Every Jew apart from some exceptions (and a murderer is not one of them) merits Olom Haba eventually. This is also clearly stated in the mishna in Perek 6 of Sanhedrin.
Similarly re Ben Gurion: I heard b’shem the Chazon Ish that he too will merit a portion in Olom Haba (again I suppose eventually) for exempting yeshiva bochurim from the army. This too would contradict the wish of ‘yimach shmo’
on the ball- “the meaning of the words ‘yimach shmo’ contradicts the fact that he merits Olom Haba.” Says who?
BS”D
This is a really tough issue on so many levels. One needs a serious Adam Gadol to ask on how to handle a lot of these questions not in a conversation in a coffee room (for example seeking or going against the death penalty or something that would likely cause death by the hands of other inmates). I also hope YW is consulting with someone.
1) On BPT post on the “Tookie” discussion. It just so happens to be I was learning Makkos, and (as always when learning any gemara) I checked out the Kollel Iyun Hadaf. Very interesting piece: http://dafyomi.co.il/makos/insites/ma-dt-013.htm
Here’s the question:
QUESTION: Rebbi Akiva states that every prohibition that is punishable with Kares also carries with it the possibility for the punishment of lashes. This does not apply to prohibitions punishable with a death penalty, since those transgressors already receive death as a corporal punishment. Rebbi Akiva explains that this is just and fair, since it is possible that the person who is Chayav Kares might only receive Malkus and not an additional punishment of Kares, because he might do Teshuvah and repent before he dies, in which case Hash-m will not give him Kares.
RASHI (DH Rebbi Akiva) explains that Rebbi Akiva means to say that his statement does not contradict the verse which teaches that one cannot be punished with two punishments for one act. Rebbi Akiva’s opinion is consistent with that rule, because a person can exempt himself from the punishment of Kares by doing Teshuvah, and thus he receives only Malkus.
However, there is another difficulty with the statement of Rebbi Akiva. Hash-m accepts a person’s genuine Teshuvah and absolves him from punishment. Why, then, does Beis Din not do the same? Why does Beis Din punish the penitent with Misah or with Malkus, if Hash-m does not punish such a person? Just as Hash-m forgives the person’s obligation of Kares, Beis Din also should absolve the Ba’al Teshuvah from Misah or Malkus. –AD KAN LESHONO–
(See link for answers- one is exactly l’havdil as the caller).
I think the goyim also have a mitzvah in a similar regatd but in regards to a Jew in a secular country. Ask a serious Rabbi.
2) Again, I have no idea what is the right course of action and as with anyone I am still in shock from the whole thing. I did think though of a case recently where a Yid in Florida got the death penalty for brutally murdering a police officer in his later youth. He since (after being on death row) did teshuva, and many people and askanim worked to have him not receive the death penalty. One of the sticky things about it was that it reeked of a double standard (that is to the goyim) because we never seem to protest a goy killing another goy getting the death penalty. So if it is true (which I imagine it is since unfortunately we don’t have beis din, let alone eidim in this particular case) that he is not l’halacha supposed to get the death penalty and we make it known publically. It could a good thing… don’t know.
Bsoros Tovos
DQB
To love a yid: you need a rav. You need someone you can say these things to on a regular basis to clarify if you are correct or not.
If you check out the Artscroll on Av Harachamim you will read that real nekama is up to Hashem. We are not vengeful or out for blood. On the other hand, we must hate evil, we must protect ourselves and society, and do that by appropriate means. If part of the process will be helping this monster get the help he needs, so be it. But he will have to live the rest of his life under tight supervision. Someone who’s familiar with protocol for the criminally insane might be able to better comment.
?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????
Firstly, he has yet to tell the truth. His whole story is full of holes.
TO BPT:
The call in radio caller actually paraphrased a Maharal, who says that beis din shel mata cannot take into account any teshuvah or improvements made by the perpetrator. They punish based on the evidence and they are not in the business of rewarding good behavior. Only beis din shel maala accepts teshuva and tikkun haneshama. So there is no inconsistency with demanding the highest punishment and yet giving him a chance to do teshuva in beis din shel maala.
The Rambam says some aveiros aren’t forgiven with teshuva alone but require other tikunim, such as yesurim or even death. Again, we can hold out hope that he does do teshuvah but that does not mitigate whatever else may be necessary for his neshama.
Newhere – Yimach Shmo expresses a hope that no trace or memory him should remain. That his existence be totally obliterated.
That is simply inconsistent with the eternity of Olom Haba.
i dont understand what everyone is going on about…we dont have a court system of our own, least of all a Sanhedrin. we live in the US of A and we abide by their laws. if the laws are “kill levi” then yes. kill levi. the goyim dont have to abide by the laws of the torah, only the sheva mitzvos. and as far as i know (correct me if i am wrong) there is nothing in there that precludes a death penalty.
bombmaniac – “and as far as i know (correct me if i am wrong) there is nothing in there that precludes a death penalty.”
Actually, one of the 7 is to establish courts to kill on the other 6. A big problem is -Do they have Jurisdiction over a Yid?
When the Halacha says that the Gov./ Kingdom can mete out Justice was this only (probably) a Jewish Kingdom? This is the problem with Mesira -they don’t have jurisdiction over the Yid and therfore they can’t kill him. Mesira is only Mutter in very few cases.
see thats something i never got. about mesira…concerning monetary issues there are alternatives to mesira and using a secular court. however in criminal cases such as rape murder abuse etc…there IS no alternative…so why should mesira be assur? theres no malicious intent, because there is no alternative…
To droid and others: The source of the story was Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld. Someone mentioned the Zionist murderers of Dr Dahan, z’l, and added yemach shemo. Rav Sonnenfeld said, “If he would die childless, no matter how big a baal aveira he was, the Torah would require his brother to marry the almana (or chalitza). The posuk adds, ‘V’lo yimacheh shemo miYisroel.’ The Torah does not want any Yid to have his name erased from Klal Yisroel. From here we learn never to say Yemach Shemo on a Yid.”
Bomb – Again, because they have no Jurisdiction. Think about what happens when a diplomat is accused/does a crime. If it happens here can we prosecute the guy? No. Why? Because we have no Jurisdiction.
Even if the secular courts here judged up everything correctly acc. to the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach, they still wouldn’t have Jurisdiction. Why? Because a Jew can only be judged up acc. to Torah laws by a proper Bais Din with proper Dayanim.
Nowadays there are no Bottey Dinim that can judge up capital crimes. Sometimes, although rarely, you’re allowed, even nowadays, to be Moiser to the gov.
why are you capitalizing jurisdiction?! so basically if a yid is in prison for raping someone…it is our moral obligation to break him out?
bomb: How do you know he is guilty of rape? Because 12 drunk unemployed jurors said so?
keep touting that platitude about jurors being brainless idiots.
Right. I forget how wise the OJ and Lemrick Nelson jurors were. Yes, not only did they acquit, they partied with the defendant afterwards. They got that right, to take just two out many many many examples.
Kill and go free. Violate immigration law and go to prison for 27 years. True American justice. So fair. So just. Why do we need the Torah when halacha should have just copied American-style or European-style justice.
After what he did, I am sure that there is some flaw in Arons background. When a Jew is missing one of the three defining traits of Yid- Bayshunus, Rachmunus… You have to suspect that maybe he is not a Yid after all.
The Gemora talks about a Kohen who described his portion of a korban “as small as a lizard”. Because he refenced an unkosher animal his background was checked and it turned out problamatic.
I am sure that if his background was throughly checked we will find that Aron isn’t qualified to be called a kosher Jew.
No I absolutely do not have mercy on him!
Its like those judges who let the Lockerberry bomber free because of misplaced mercy!
Bombmaniac
Mesirah is not assur with a child molester. The only option of doing justice and keeping kids safe is to get them off the streets and that’s by doing Mesirah. We as a community are not equipped with any way of stopping abuse, however if one with an abusive nature knows that we will have no mercy and hand him over to the police it can help prevent many cases of abuse. Additionally we do need to do what we can as far as educating children and putting up surveillance cameras in Shuls, schools…
Beingbusy
You have no authority to say that. Unfortunately there are crazy people in the world even crazy Jewish people. His mind is messed up that doesn’t prove he has a Yichus issue. He’s a criminally insane person, he was a ticking time bomb. There are probably others like him out there and I hope they are rooted out before they do anything to anyone.
Is anyone in favor of Pidyon Shivuim for Bernie Madoff
zahavasdad, good question!
Interesting that people seem less willing to forgive Madoff than Aron. Madoff’s crime happened long ago and I dont hear anyone speaking in his defense (he’s a Jew, yadayada).
Does that show us something about ourselves- some people value money more than life?
Holy Brothers and Sisters!
Things just got very scary and real, when all our worst nightmares came true ounce this shocking and horrific news came forth.
After flowing closely the events how they unfolded i cant and stop and think a couple of different things.
First I would imagine he is ready to meet his maker and had to be in the worst place then and I hope even more now, and why he wouldn’t just start with himself, is beyond me. With that said.
Just as he will answer for his sins,so too we as a community need to take a count of ours. For we cant push this one aside and write it off.
Could it be that all our looking for little Leiby A”H is what set Aron off? Could it be that what we were thinking is the cure set off this disease ?
That’s because Madoff was not insane – just (it would seem) very greedy. I would venture to say that Aron is probably insane.
Has anyone thought that maybe he was possessed by a dybbuk? Cases of possession by a dybbuk are well documented. There is the famous story with the Chafetz Chaim and a dybbuk – that was only circa 100 years ago,
Please don’t get me wrong – if Aron was of sound mind and responsible for his actions then he is the epitome of evil and I would be happy to carry out justice and put him to death myself if so paskened by a Sanhedrin.
i love, the disease was set off before, because any sane person would have helped Leiby instead of abducting him. Why did he take him home instead of finding a phone and calling his mother? The search may have panicked him into action but he acted first by taking him instead of helping him.
I was thinking about how this all happened in the week of Parshas Pinchus. Zimri wasn’t chayiv misa al pi din yet Pinchus was highly commended for taking action against him.
This murderer was transgressed on one of the three issurim of Harag val Yavor.
When Bais Din had to stone someone to death, like the Mikoshesh Eitzim, the Beis Haskila was far from the machana so that the person should have time to do teshuva on his way to death. Nevertheless Bais Din still had to kill him. We can’t make cheshbonos if he is doing teshuva or not- that is his department.
I think it would be a tremendous chillul Hashem if Yidden would come to the defense of someone who did something so awful.
ILT: During the search, I think many people thought they would find him alive and well. Maybe lost or confused, but still alive. Also, in a case where someone is lost, the point is to find them and every little bit helps. Most people would agree that “panicking” like that is not the norm.
Aron’s story has many holes in it. There is no way of being certain exactly what happened.
bottom line as Yidden we all must be Dan L’Kaf Zechus no matter what the media says.
untill we are 100% certain that he was sane and commited this horrific act with a clear mind, we must rationalize no matter how hard that maybe he really does suffer from some sort of mental illnes ex. phscitzafrenia and if this is true then he is not to blame, for he then had no control over his actions…
a thinker, I think you’re confusing being dan lekaf zechus with some general well-warranted compassion for the mentally ill.
kol ha’meracheim al ha’achzarim…
yes torahlife but first it needs to be established if he is an achzar or a shoita
or maybe he didn’t even try to kill him. It could have been manslaughter. Everyone’s assuming that he intended to kill him. I think the horror of the fact that he dismembered him has painted him automatically as a crazy killer when it may not be the case.
Evidently Levi Aron was hit by a car or motorcycle when he was young and may have had some brain damage.
How, exactly, is this different than the Martin Grossman case (other than the fact that he has not yet been convicted)?
Maybe the bottom line here is – wait for the psychiatric evaluation. First find out if he’s sane, then worry about what to do. Given the nature of his arrest and the evidence against him, it’s highly unlikely that he will go free. Sane and convicted, or insane and committed to the hospital, he will be behind bars probably for the rest of his life, and unable to kill again. It is also likely that if he is convicted and put into the general prison population he will be murdered himself almost immediately. And as someone else remarked, how are we going to react to that?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.