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The new lockdown in Israel foretells the end of the State of Israel. It’s one thing when the goyim interfere with our observance of Torah, but it’s of a completely different order when it’s Jews inflicting it upon other Jews. The demise of the medina was always inevitable, as it’s a spiritual Frankenstein – a morbid creation of man thinking he alone understands existence and how it’s best managed. It seems finally to have reached its endgame. It’s unknown exactly when the State will come crashing down, or simply evaporate into thin air, but disappear it will.
someone in Monsey
you are not the first to say that. since its inception, Nasser, Arafat, Kohmeini all vowed that the State will “disappear”.
It is still here it outlasted them all it will outlast you tooLet the Israeli lockdown be a reminder to everyone-myself included-that Hashem runs the state of Israel and the entire world for that matter and everything is decided and in Hashems power what will happen and be in the future.
May we all stop thinking that Israel or any country in the world is run by it’s government when in truth these rulers are just middlemen actors-agents of Hashem to act as rulers-with Hashem really running every tiny aspect of the entire world.
Gd Forbid! This is the voice of the erev rav, When everyone thought that Rommel would reach EY Rav Herzog paskened that the third commonwealth would not be destroyed. What could happen is that a mostly religious government will be elected after this one falls, which it sooner or later will. The Geula comes slowly in stages (Yerushalmi, Berachot 1;1).
Chas Vshalom
May your disdain for life and health be elevated to love for your fellow Jew; May your ignorance of the national responsibilities of Am Yisroel be replaced with hakoras hatov for the streets, the hospitals, the electricity and water, the post and the regulations that govern maaseh vematan, and of course for the young men who put their lives on the line for every jew every day. Of course, living in medina hakedosha of Monsey, that probably means nothing to you, but it means something to the God fearing inhabitants of Israel, or it should.
The government of Israel started off well but has handled the pandemic for the last 4 months awfully. I make no excuses for incompetence; but your implicit accusation is that they want to uproot Torah and are using this to do so.
You think too much of yourself. To the extent that it doesn’t interfere with their lives, doesn’t ignore the shared responsibilities of citizenship, or cause a spread of a deadly virus, THEY DON”T CARE what you believe or how you practice. Neither the government nor the individuals who are not chareidi have the time, energy, inclination or incentive to try to erase Torah. In fact here is more Torah being learned by more people -subsidized in many waysby the medina THAN AT ANY TIME IN JEWISH HISTORY. And you think they are trying to destroy Torah?
May you be blessed with more clarity and may HKBH take the blinders of sinas chinom from your eyes.
It’s like the stock market. Everyone knows a crash is coming, but nobody can tell exactly when. The best mashal of Israel I’ve heard, is the way a fruit grows. It flowers, but has a shell. However, once it’s grown, the shell (klipa) is tossed away and all that’s left is a beautiful fruit.
Tich’le Shana Ve’Kileloteha
Erev RH and you have not better to do with your time, nebech.
I am hardly a flaming Zionist but i have better stuff do then knock yidden.Someone in Monsey: The medina exists only in your own mind. The moment you recognize that you are nothing more than a modern day Hiroo Onoda, you will find peace and sanity.
The medinah as a Jewish state never existed. Indeed, the “dream” of a Jewish state has been a nightmare for most zionists since the beginning. The “crackdown” on shuls and yesvhivos is based on blatantly false public health claims, suggesting a rather obvious ulterior motive.
Note the zionists claim 1000 Israelis out of 8 million have died, but by their death rate statistics .5 percent (one in 200, or 40000) die annually so the 1000 “covid deaths” (many of whom would have died anyways) is a tiny drop in the bucket – hardly the basis for measures more appropriate for something such as a renewed smallpox or bubonic plague epidemic.
Akuperma, it is 1000 MORE PEOPLE WHO DIED. It is like another intifada. Almost all world governments take it seriously.
Akuperma, and if they had not been taking measures, the death toll could have been 6000+, if not 9000+, by now.
If the Mitzva from the Torah of Shofar was cancelled on the first day of Rosh Hashana bec. of the FEW or even ONE person who might carry daled amos on Shabbos, Kal Vachomer (Chamira sacanta meissura) the Mitzva (which according to some is not even an obligation) of Tefila Betzibur would have been abolished by Sanhedrin today until the danger of gatherings passed.
All the ridiculous attempts at denial of the sick and dead from Covid in front of our eyes by factoring into global death rates and numbers and all the other ridiculous claims are nothing short of and the absolute equivalent of Holocaust Denial.
Dear Duvid,
‘abolish’ is the wrong word. Prevented? I prefer something like hold off on teffilah B’tzibbur. But then again, Sanhedrin would abhor a good deal of what we hold precious.
ubiquitin:
So interesting how daas baal haBayis is exactly the opposite of daas Torah. The Chazon Ish didn’t think the Zionist state would last even 50 years. So Israel is already well beyond its expected life-span of shmad and, please G-d, we will all see this idol (among all others) disappear (with no harm cH”V to any Jews), as we all just davened yesterday and will again in one week.
yichusdik:
It’s not a question of “if” the Zionists want to destroy Torah. That is the very essence of Zionism (to change the Jewish Torah nation into a god-less land-based Nationalist/Idolatrous Nation) and it is plain and obvious for all to see that this is exactly what the Zionists want and work to achieving as much as possible in this regard, R”L.Dear Akuperma,
Where do you get you disease takes from? Why would a lockdown be used against a bubonic plague?
And, you spew all this garbage about the pandemic being contrived. When you are called out on it, you then disappear.
Dear HaKatan,
Please expand your “the Zionists want to destroy Torah” argument. What does that even mean in the present day? Almost all Jews live in countries that allow the individual the right to worship as s/he pleases. If anybody has an idea of what authentic Torah sans Zionism looks like, let them profess such a belief. The glaring truth is that it is impossible to make a clean amputation. An absolute refutation of Zionism, will leave the objectivity of the Torah on life-support. Though it is tantalizing to rethink things without allowing any concessions to Zionism, it is impossible. Over a century of inconclusive debate, has consistently ended well before that line.
Maybe you have a better argument than anybody else before us. Our people have seen much upheaval since the Industrial Revolution. It is still premature to proclaim that Judaism is ahead of the industrial/technological curve. [The same could be said for humanity as a whole.] We are blind to the future. How can one claim that this-and-that, is bound to ‘destroy Torah’? There are so many statements here to ponder:
The slow pace of yeshivos.
The lack of gemara classes that are not daf yomi.
Our leaders increased activities in lay matters, preventing them from their ultimate task as religious leaders.
Uncontrolled use of technology.
Lack of enthusiasm in our schools.
Little inclusiveness among the various communities.
Ignoring the potential for outreach.This list could be endless. My point is, that there are so many glaring internal threats to our ability to sustain the Torah. Many have been discussed publicly. Yet, none are so glaring as to force the issue. They require a nuanced peek at the future. With a prudent mind.
So how do you so boldly claim, that Zionists want to destroy the Torah, when it has not been at all played out in history?
Dear Someone,
I never got the sense that the State of Israel is all knowing, or that it even pretends to be. What makes you feel that way?
n0 mesorah:
I wish I could better understand your post so that I could attempt to answer it. But it seems that your understanding of Torah Judaism and liHavdil, both history and Zionism, might have to do with this communications gap.Regarding Zionism, please see my post to yichusdik above.
Please also look up Yaldei Teiman and Yaldei Tehran. And the recent (and current) battles against the Zionists to stop them from closing the yeshivos by drafting Yeshiva boys into their shmad army.
Much more importantly, please read what all the gedolim have written about Zionism from even before 1948, like, for example, Rav Elchanan Wasserman (including in the name of his Rebbi, the Chofetz Chaim), and also from after 1948, like Rav Reuven Grozovsky’s Biayos haZman and the Satmar Rav’s sefarim (on which nobody of note has argued except on minor points like davening at the Kosel and on Israeli citizens voting in Israeli elections).
Regarding all of the factors, you could, of course, get a very nicely packaged and thorough view of all of this and much, much more by learning Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s sefer, The Empty Wagon.
He clarifies many misconceptions and debunks many myths, and sheds much (and much-needed) light on this very misunderstood sugya.
Dear HaKatan,
The idea of subverting orphaned children was considered ‘enlightened’ in the West. But a lot of Zionists, even some that where not religious; were upset at the Jewish Agency over the Tehran children. If your point is that bigotry destroys Torah, than I applaud you. It is explicitly stated in our classical sources. Though it has nothing to do with Zionism. We could even use some introspection in all our communities.
Dear HaKatan,
Who are the ones out to destroy Torah today? The last decade of turbulence around yeshivos and the draft, is the results of a court ruling. If you are pointing to The Israeli Supreme Court, I hear you. They are out to destroy Zionism too. Polls demonstrate that large segments of Israeli society are fine with letting students join the work force. Much of the army has no desire for drafting chareidi soldiers. What makes today’s problems more about Zionism than say, secularism?
Dear HaKatan,
I bought the empty wagon. I gave up after the first section. His Judaism is on life support. It can not breathe on it’s own. A shame. It was an expensive book. And I hear, that he has some new information to add to the debate. Maybe one day I will finish it.
Dear HaKatan,
I have read Reb Elchonon, Reb Reuvain, and The Satmar Rav, ZY”A. My difficulty is [With the exception of bayos hazman which is more of a protocol for dealing with the state, than an assessment.] that the future they write about, did not really play out. This is not to say they where way off, it just is inconclusive. The debate about Zion seems to have no clear parameters. And to me, has kept returning to the same starting point. Yidden have had enough of their blood being spilled. Where do we, and where did they; in from here?
(Now, before you jump into the whole discourse, answer one point. Does it say anywhere that we have to enjoy the violence inflicted on our people? Nobody is disagreeing with the great internal strength our ancestors displayed. We mourn over it. We do not celebrate it.)
Would a Torahdicker Government not do a lockdown and save lives?
Why is Torah stronger in Israel than in Monsey if the evil zionists want to destroy it. Your forefathers are from there wake up.
HaKatan: The Zionists were members of an organization that was started in Europe in the 1897 and ended in 1948 with the creation of the state of Israel. The organization’s stated purpose was to the create a homeland of the Jews. With the creation of the state, the purpose of the organization became moot.
Many people who were members of this Zionist organization went on to take ruling positions in the state of Israel but most of them are now dead. There are some people, born after Zionism ended in 1948, who subscribe to the same values of this now defunct organization but they are very few in number.
In fact, the values of the Zionists are now widely accepted, in Israel, as corrupt and disgusting. As proof, take a look at how the Israeli public views the one person who, to this day, proudly continues to proclaim these values as truths: Professor Amir Chetzroni. He is a pariah.
Those people in power in Israel today are made up of a wide variety of Jews and non-Jews, most of them do not hold any of the same values as that organization that was established in 1897. And, despite the horrible things the Zionists envisioned for Israel, it is trending in the right direction, not only economically and socially but also religiously. The Zionists had their plans but ultimately, Hashem laughed.
Like Hiroo Onoda, the Japanese soldier who was not told that World War 2 ended until 1974, some people never got the memo that the war against Zionism is over. We won. You can put down your weapon and instead roll up your sleeves and help the rest of us continue to make the State of Israel what Hashem wants it to be.
Besalel:
Zionism did not end in 1948, as you think. It also doesn’t mean founding a State.To quote Rav Chaim Brisker, people think the Zionists shmad in order to gain a State. In fact, it is the opposite: they need the State in order to shmad.
Even the Israeli politicians of today still speak of it today.
The World Zionist Organization, the same one founded by Herzl YM”S, is still very much a Zionist force and, unfortunately, tens of thousands of Jews were recently scammed into voting for a “religious” (non-Mizrachi) party there (and literally accepting Zionist kefirah in the process when accepting the Zionist shmad “Jerusalem Program”).
So you first have to understand what is Zionism. It is not about founding the state in 1948. It’s not a secret and it’s not some academic matter. It’s right on the WZO’s web site, and on the State of Israel’s sites, too.
Regarding your comparison to Japan, that is not accurate. Hashem does not want the State of Israel to be. Never did and never will. Period. There is nothing to discuss other how to deal with the reality of that State’s (very) lamentable existence.
n0 mesorah:
Zionism as in ideology, and as embodied by the State of Israel, is anti-Torah and (therefore) anti-Judaism.
Zionism attempts to change the Jewish people’s perception of themselves (never mind the danger to Jews R”L of the gentiles believing this Big Lie) from a Torah-based nation to a godless Nationalist/idolatrous nation.
This hasn’t changed and, as mentioned, this is more important to them (and lethal, Ch”V to Judaism) than the Zionists having achieved a State in 1948. The corruption of the definition of a Jew is far worse. Once you remove Hashem and the Torah from the picture, you are left with…Zionism? Atheism? Certainly nothing Jewish.
Regarding your assessment of the sefarim, I don’t know what you mean about the “future” not happening as they expected.
The bottom line is that we will always have a place to live in galus until Mashiach comes. Of course, the Zionists did their best in WW II to prevent Jews from going anywhere other than Palestine even if that meant their alternative was the Nazi gas chambers.
But to throw away the Torah because of a question of “where will we go from here” is simply silly. There always will be a place to live in galus. And there would have been more even during the Holocaust were it not for the Zionists’ evil treachery and prioritizing Zionism above all else.
Starting a State at a cost of the Jewish religion, not to mention billions of dollars and tens of thousands of Jewish lives and inflaming anti-semitism, etc. etc. is absurd. It’s also extremely deadly, because the punishment stated for doing specifically that is “Ani mattir es bisarchem…” R”L L”A.
Hakatan you aren’t a Navi. There is a State right now. Speak for yourself.
Hakatan: I suggest you read as much Amir Hetzroni as your stomach can tolerate. He very much holds the views that the Brisker Rav (rightfully) was thinking about when talking about the Zionists and (rightfully) abhorred. He very much stands for all the values rejected by the Torah world when Zionism was created. But he calls himself either “post Zionist” or “anti zionist.” That is because in his mind, the state of Israel represents Zionism and he is against the current values of the state of Israel.
So if a person (Chetzroni) who subscribes, to the T, to all of the horrible things that you accuse Zionism of being, considers himself anti-Zionist because he is anti-Israel, this means that today, the State of Israel is the antitheses all of the horrible things you think of when you hear the word Zionist.
In essence, this is yet another piece of evidence that Zionism ended when the state of Israel was created. The evidence is actually overwhelming but I am afraid that to lay it all bare is not appropriate for a Coffee Room post.
You will not understand this post after the first read – it would be unfair of me to expect you to be able to. I suggest you read as much Hetzroni as you can and then come back and re-read this post and then you will be the first person to move to Israel – the land slowly but surely becoming more and more, every day, the land of Torah and Kedusha and Am Yisrael.
What a depressing thread.
We have four opinions here. 1) Due to it’s Zionist nature, the State is unraveling. 2) Zionism ended when the State was created. 3) Zionism and the State are the same problem. 4) The State is here for all Jews and that is to be respected.
I fudged a bit for cohesion. Therefore, I did not name the opinions. I want to point out worthy thought. Only #4 is supporting the state as is. And that opinion is irrespective of Zionism. So, Zionism is about what could be, not what is going on currently. Now, there is a separate debase going on if the Zionist ideal is a positive or a negative to the Torah ideal.
A nihilist would say there is no real argument here. Only fantasies or nightmares. But to have the argument in any meaningful fashion, would require an agreed upon understanding of our history in the diaspora.
“Zionism as in ideology, and as embodied by the State of Israel, is anti-Torah and (therefore) anti-Judaism.”
You just defamed thousands of Religious Zionist talmidei chachamim, including many who can legitimately be considered the gedolim of their generation, people such as Rav Reines z’tz’l, Rav Uziel z’tz’l, Rav Kook z’tz’l, Rav Herzog z’tz’l, Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l, and Rav Waldenberg z’tz’l. Even Rav Ovadia Yosef z’tz’l identified as a Zionist. Rabbi Dr. Yosef Burg z’tz’l was the founder of the National Religious Party and was himself a tremendous talmid chacham, with semicha from Rabbi Dr. Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg at the Hildesheimer Rabbinical School.
You have until Sunday night to do tshuvah.
Dear Charlie,
None of the great men you mentioned, would be so petty as to be insulted by that statement. Conversations like this one, will feature broad language. Every logic that is used, will be in conflict with someone of stature.
Dear Besalel,
Your logic is not ironclad. While Hesroni is definitely post-Judaism (my term) it is an open debate if he is post-Zionist or anti-Zionist.
Dear HaKatan,
‘Where do we go from here’ is the question that Yidden have asked over the years, after their communities were massacred. Moving on to the next country was generally not an answer, it was reality. The only possible answer is Eretz YIsrael.
The discussion could be about any move. If one had enough of city traffic, or social pressures, or lack of kosher pizza – anything, and decides as a Jew they have to move out, where would they pick? There really isn’t any place that tells the Wandering Jew this is your home, other than our own land.
The fact is, Jews did not move to Israel to eat pizza, homestead, or assimilate. For all these very Jewish activities America was [And probably still is.] a wiser choice. They chose Israel because they had enough of a Europe that was soaked in Jewish blood. And had no interest in soaking another continent. We would rather die in our own home, than live among strangers. Go find Rabbanim that advocated going to America over Israel in the nineteenth century.And the same is mostly true for the early twentieth.
Nomesorah, I don’t know how useful it is to list the opinions before figuring out what people even mean when they talk about Zionism. Is all Zionism the same for the purpose of this exercise? Other than for a few fringe anti zionists who condemn it all with no nuance (or knowledge of facts, history or politics, and a world view that precludes them from examining their world view), what you mean by Zionism matters.
Someone, what makes you think that a state is identical with the government or even the system of government? France, for example, is now on its fifth republic (constitution). Some American states have had more. Does this make them different states?
HaKatan and Akuperma, have you sought professional help for your denial syndrome. Everyone knows that the state is here to stay. That is why Arab states are establishing normal relations. If frum Jews had made aliya en masse one hundred years ago in response to the calls of Rav Kook and the Imrei Emmet the state would have been completely religious from the beginning. Now it will have to take a little longer. BTW, the Zohar says that each 1,000 years are equivalent to one of the six days of Creation. That means that 5708 was the last time for biur chametz. There is no greater chametz than the Galut.
Dear Se,
This discussion is not about Zionism. I already wrote that that argument is more about a perspective of our history, than anything else. I have that list for the sale of simplicity. This conversation was about the possible cohesion of religion with supporting the State of Israel in the present day.
N0mesorah, before we can discuss that we must discuss the definition of a medina (state). Prof. Google defines it as “a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government.” The sociologist Max Weber defined it as a polity that has a monopoly on the use of force. The form of government or constitution only sets forth the rules of governance. Those in the government are only temporarily in charge of the actual governing in accordance with constitutional constraints. This the State of Israel would still be the State of Israel if all of the ministers were observant and even if a kingdom under Mashiach ben David would be proclaimed. This, someone who wants the State to end is in fact saying that he does not want Mashiach to come. Moreover, as the destruction of the State c”v would perforce mean the death of several million Jews he is, in fact, calling for another Holocaust. Something to think about during Yom Kippur.
Dear Avi,
Those definitions of State and government, fit well with everything posted so far.
I liked your semantical argument. Seems solid.
You mixed me up with a different poster. I am praying for the best for the perpetuation of the State and it’s inhabitants.
N0mesorah, I apologize for my ack of clarity. I was referring to the O.P. Gemar chatima tova.
The Satmar Rav ztz’l said that one who kisses a Sefer Torah and does not believe in Hashem, makes the Sefer Torah an a’z, so if one is out for Israel (zionism) and does not believe makes Israel an a’z.
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