The Draft and Mattos-Masei

DaasYochid and popa- you can attribute any statement to me that you wish, even if it defies logic (If I am a chareidi, how can I hate myself?)but just tell me whether some on the chareidi leadership did not show hatred for the “other side” in all their statemente about ‘reshoim’, “wanting to eliminate Torah”, “kofrim’ and many other sayings that you can read every day on YWN. That is a lot more damning and hateful than anything I have said. My disgust is at those who shelter behind the protection of the Israeli army, who shamelessly milk other jews for all what they can get, who spit in the cup they drink from aand then turn around and refuse any reasonable compromise in improving the lot of everyone. Yup-those people I have contempt for.

popa- I enjoy dressing like a chareidi, I enjoy having a chassidic rebbe as my mentor, I enjoy the traditions and customs of my chareidi background and I have no intention discarding them. What I don’t appreciate is hypocrisy and ingratitude, I believe in our Jewish destiny in Israel. I abhor asinine statements about “shmad”, “eliminating Torah” and twisting chazal and a slew of halachic sayings to fit a specific selfish program. I certianly do not hate chareidim nor do I hate an jew but I despise people who are supercilious and arrogant, who think that only they know the truth. Yup, those people I despise.

The other group are anti-zionists who feel the zionists unnecessarily started a war that was totally avoidable, that trading statehood for autonomy is the only path to peace, see nothing wrong with becoming friends with Muslims, do not see the Arabs as a threat, and question whether it is allowed to kill Arabs or destroy their property since the zionists are the “Rodefim” and a Rodef, unlike a Nirdaf, is required to withdraw from the fight. Under international law, this group are clearly conscientious objectors, and attempts to conscript them will cause serious problems for the Israelis.

I agree 100%. The Charaidi argument should be (as I have said earlier, as this is the real point in contention) that they object to the state in totality, and therefore should not be coerced to serve or join in any of its activities (including VAT. An export tax should be charged to “Charaidi stores” (as part of a semi-autonomus entity) instead of collecting VAT from consumers).

popa- at last, we know where you stand. No wonder that you never find any fault with extreme chareidi positions.

lolwut

I didn’t say anything.

Do you typically read this much into what people don’t say? Maybe all that stuff you criticize us for is all just made up in your head.

The other group are anti-zionists who feel the zionists unnecessarily started a war that was totally avoidable, that trading statehood for autonomy is the only path to peace, see nothing wrong with becoming friends with Muslims, do not see the Arabs as a threat

Complete and utter drivel. Go to Pakistan dressed like a Chareidi. Tell them you are anti -zionist and want to be friends. Let’s see how long you keep your head. The biggest falacy is that “they hate zionists, not Jews.” Hogwash. Dont be naive. These pere adam hate Jews…ALL JEWS period. They dont want to trade statehood. They want all of eretz Yisroel and the Jews in the sea.

musser zoger: Actually there were Jews in what is now Pakistan before the war between the Zionists and the Arabs began. In fact many Muslims countries had thriving Jewish communities. Based on the percentage of those who fled to America, it seems they were a lot happier than were European Jews. Whereas the collapse of European Jewish communities had nothing to do with the zionists, the collapse of Jewish communities in Muslim countries (which involve minimial loss of life compared to the massive casulties during the collapse of European Jewry in the 20th century) was clearly triggered by the decision of the zionists to go to war with the Muslims.

Note that the anti-zionist hareidim have no desire to interfere with your war effort. They aren’t planting bombs in zionist yeshivos, or blowing up buses with mixed seating, or attacking your pizza places. All they want is to be left alone. They wish to learn in peace, work at jobs (on the books will be nice, but most manage to support themselves with “unofficial” jobs since they aren’t allowed to work for the zionist economy), and follow a traditional Jewish lifestyle. IT IS YOU ZIONISTS WHO OBJECT. The Hareidim don’t demand anything except to be left alone.

ROB -“health- I have a very easy solution to you and the ones who espouse your views: move to another country who does not require you to ‘share’ in any burden. I am sure that the israeli government will be very sympathetic to you moving to, say, albania.”

This post is so ironic. I’ve been espousing this argument for years and none of the Zionists here it took it seriously, except it was the other way around.

That’s right – the Zionists and even the so-called “Religious” Zionists should reconsider making their homeland in Uganda and the rest of us who realize that even Israel is Golus will have the land of Palestine ruled by the Goyim like Turkey. This IMHO will hasten the coming of Moshiach!

ROB -“Health- Eretz Yisroel is never golus! As you know, the gemoro is very dismissive on anyone who lives in chutz lo-oretz…”

Yes, it is Golus, in spite of the Chazals saying the things they did about living in Chutz Laaretz. The Medina IS NOT Esschalta of the Geula!

“and my remark was not meant to taken literally”

But mine was! Zionists reconsider making your Medina in Uganda!

truthsharer and musser zoger, instead of attempting to prove these great Rabbis to be wrong (certainly a foolish endeavor), you simply deride those who rightly condemn that which you cannot defend but inexplicably can’t help but defend.

Regarding “Rabbanim should leave politics to the politicians”, you are implying that decisions of learning versus, lihavdil, IDF are outside the purview of Rabbinic interest. I didn’t know there was “musser” outside of Orthodox Jewry, because your implication is certainly well outside the bounds of observant Judaism. It’s more like Zionists.

Regarding not everything is “black and white”, this is certainly true, but irrelevant here.

Even if Lapid actually mean what he claims, that he simply wants to help Chareidim, and not, as it appears, liHashcicham Torasecha uliHaaviram meChukei ritzonecha, this, too, is not relevant.

The end result of this whole proposal is the same: more shmad, in line with clear and primary Zionist ideology of replacing Judaism with CH”V Zionism. It is absurd to suggest otherwise unless you know for sure that this case is different, and there is no reason to believe this case is any different.

It’s too bad that Zionists, including “Religious Zionists” can’t face the facts about their own ignominious history of Zionism.

Please go read what the Torah sages of today have written of this whole issue. For example, Rav Dovid Soloveichik’s pieces on this are freely available online. Additionally, please read what Herzl and the other Zionists and, lihavdil, how gedolim such as the Brisker Rov who lived then and there understood Zionism, before you make uneducated and derogatory comments.

Zionists had their own gedolim- Rav Kook, Rav YY Reines, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, Rav Yosef Alkalai, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Menachem Mendel Kasher, Rav Benzion Uziel, Rav Haim David haLevi, etc.

HaKatan,shmad did not need a state or zionism. It began in Western Europe with the Enlightenment and the rise of Reform Judaism. In Eastern Europe the Gedolim made two miscalculations that led to far more shmad than zionism. They thought thst the depotic Empires that kept Jews confined to shtetls would remain in place and, like in previous centuries, Jews had no choice.

However, millions of Jews left for the US, with mass shmad resulting. With the Empires weakenibg and falling, far more Jews became Radicals,Anarchists, Socialists, and Communists than became zionists. And it was the Jewish Commmunists who did such an effective job in shmadding Jews trapped in the Soviet Union after WW1. Eueopean Jewry in the 30’s were experiencing what American Jewry is going thru today with respect to people leaving Yiddishkeit behind.

However, you are so blinded by your hatred of zionism, you don’t recognize any of the above. The original zionists were as anti-religious as all of the other movements, but they were a minor player in the shmadding of EuropeanJewry.

Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.

DY, it doesn’t justify anything. I was just pointing out to Hakatan that Zionism was far from the only, let alone the largest. cause of shmad

Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance.

Is that what we base our hashkafos on, or do we base them on the truth?

Rabbi of Berlin says one must live in Eretz Yisroel… hmmmm… Since when is Berlin in Eretz Yisroel?

Health: I fully know that there are exceptions to living in Eretz Yisroel and indeed, I would never be your “Possek” and insist that you live in Eretz Yisroel.

My objection to your post was when you named Eretz Yisroel “golus”.Chas vecholilo!!

And, as far as R” Joelish zz’l goes, there must be many of his followers in Eretz Yisroel who are not listening to him in this matter of living outside of Eretz Yisroel. Maybe they should stop listening to him on other matters too!

DaasYochid, thank you.

lesschumras and Sam2:

I never argued that Zionism was the greatest form of shmad and I also did not argue that a typical Israeli Zionist should be ch”V mistreated in any way. I have, in the past, written that your typical Israeli Zionist is likely a tinok sheNishba to Zionism. But the theology of Zionism, its actions, and its proponents should still be understood for what those and they are.

Sam2, I don’t understand how you come up with “no more Zionists of the form”. As the Brisker Rov wrote and as is simple historical fact, Zionism’s whole reason for existence is shmad. Although the Zionists have changed tactics somewhat since the yaldei Tehran atrocities, the State and its IDF are still engaged in shmad in many levels and ways.

Again, because it seems that very few people get this, the Brisker Rav wrote, and is a matter of plain history, that the Zionists need a state in order to shmad (not the other way around, terrible as even that would be).

ROB -“My objection to your post was when you named Eretz Yisroel “golus”.Chas vecholilo!!”

Yes, it is Golus. The Medina Is Not Esschalta of the Geula like the Zionists claim.

I guess next week you’ll be skipping part of Eicha that says in 4:22 “Lo Yosef Lehaglosaich”, if you’re in Israel, because you don’t consider EY “Golus”. It seems that most of the Klal, that still read Eicha, consider that the words of the Novi still apply everywhere!

health: I have no idea what your mention of the well known ohr someach does. I fulle endorse what he wrote, that one who thinks that the center of the world is not jerushalaim (alluding to German Reform Judiasm)will suffer greatly (in reference to the tochacho).

As far as your other assertion, that Eretz yisroel (and jerushalaim) is -chas vecholilo- “golus”, beware of what you write about eretz yisroel! Your quote from eicha makes no sense-as per your interpretation- which is what,BTW?

Again, just because they said it doesn’t make it true.

Thank you, toi.

“truthsharer”:

Perhaps your screen name would be better written “wishsharer”.

Are you calling Rav Chaim Brisker a liar?

That wouldn’t be a very bright thing to do since, aside for the obvious reasons, he lived there and then and knew from personal experience both pre-1948 and post-1948 what Zionism was and is.

Historical fact and current events happenings are not subject to your or anyone else’s denials. Zionism was and is what it was and is: shmad. This is still true even though their methods of shmad have changed since Yaldei Tehran, etc. Zionism was and is shmad.

If you’re better informed than Rav Chaim Brisker (pre-1948 and post-1948) and Rav Elchonon (pre-1948 only, HY”D), who lived there and then, please provide a comparable source that disagrees with them and with, lihavdil, the Zionists themselves. This is not a secret.

In other words, if you claim Rav Chaim’s words (and history and current events) are not true, then please provide a reliable same-level source who contradicts those facts.

Apologies to HaKatan: I’ve accused you of basing your worldview on “the Brisker Rov said” with no further proof, nuance, or reasoning needed. Was I ever wrong! It’s “the Brisker Rov said” *and *”the Brisker Rov’s son said”.

Now, is all learning at the Brisker yeshiva done by parroting and invective? Was it done that way at Sinai, too?

First of all, seeing as it is almost tisha bi’av I think we should try to drop the name-calling and sarcasm in favor of a calmer, more reasonable debate.

Josh31:

“Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.”

Sorry, but we’re not gonna change our opinions on what is right and what is wrong just so that people will like us more. We believe in doing what’s right, not what’s popular.

lesschumras:

“I was just pointing out to Hakatan that Zionism was far from the only, let alone the largest. cause of shmad”

How does that diminish the shmad that it did cause?

rabbiofberlin

for your own benefit

desist and surrender without honor

or

based on dozens of past comments which will displayed

a.your hypocritical one thing on one post another on the next

b.your support for whim and movement that goes against Torah

,when confronted your sheepish retreats

c..your appalling ignorance,

you will be turned into a mockery

waiting at the control pad

“Zionists had their own gedolim- Rav Kook, Rav YY Reines, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, Rav Yosef Alkalai, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Menachem Mendel Kasher, Rav Benzion Uziel, Rav Haim David haLevi, etc.”

Good ,let’s go through them one by one

(if the moderators permit)

some admitted in quotes they had been naive

some were lightweights

some were (as you fraudently are aware)decades prior

virtually everyone of them militantly opposed ,in the forms that existed then,what passes as centrist(a meaningless term) zionism of today, or it’s diguises,

or Tel Aviv’ism