The Dov Lipman Response�Controversial?

MDD: I disagree with your accusation of falsification and with your assertion that those chilukim, including the missile defense chiluk, are “shvach”. In fact, there is another story on YWN, today, about another rock-throwing “incident”. As I said, this is not normal.

You could try to answer those arguments instead of taking the easy way and dismissing them out of hand, which is a good tactic when you have no answer.

Even the Zionists struggle (unsuccessfully) to answer the multiple problems with Zionism from the gimmel shevuos, as I noted earlier. Speaking of propaganda, I’m not sure why you are resorting to cheap name-calling instead of addressing this substantively.

If you want to stop the discussion here then I certainly understand, as there is really nothing that can kasher the A”Z of Zionism.

mdd, I’ll respect your assertion that “ein ze mikomah” regarding the 3 shvuos though I disagree with both that assertion and your implied position on the matter regarding “Religious Zionism”.

Regarding your comparing murderous Arab rock attacks in Israel vs not being able to wear a yarmulke in parts of Europe, I first of all don’t see what the purpose of the comparison is.

Besides that this comparison is pointless, in my humble opinion, it’s anyways almost no contest (Israel is far worse).

The ability to wear a yarmulke in the streets is almost worthless given the myriad security and other problems in Israel that are the bloody costs of Zionism.

As we discussed, it’s not “only” rock attacks that Israel has problems with, though those alone are far worse than having to wear a secular hat over the yarmulke as in parts of Europe. Israel also has a mandatory draft, constant battles against other types of terror, the potential for missile attacks that Israel cannot adequately defend against even with its anti-missile batteries, etc. Hashem Yishmor.

These and more do not apply to Europe, only to Israel.

(I find it pathetic that people even try to defend the utter disaster that is (secular) Zionism. If your theology (i.e “religious Zionism”) calls for the tens of thousands of Jewish human sacrifices that were needed for this A”Z, then I understand you are defending an A”Z that you were mislead into believing and I’ll also try to show you how you were mislead.

But when people try to defend secular Zionism by touting how you can dress like a Jew in the street in (parts of) Israel, as if according to the Jewish faith even a drop of Jewish blood may be spilled CH”V for that, and at the same time people ignore all of Zionism’s myriad problems and disastrous consequences to Israeli and world Jewry, Hashem Yishmor, I find the whole thing absurd.)

Avi K -“part the fault of frum Jews who do not make aliya, become citizens and vote.”

Regarding this fantasy -I’ve posted to you many times -this in no way, right now, would give the Frum Jews any sort of majority. Why do you keep posting the same things over and over again -when simple math tells you it’s obviously Not the truth -it won’t make any real difference?

Health & Hakatan,

Every 70,000 new olim equals a Knesset seat. With all of the current religious members this would make a very strong plurality. Not to mention the economic strength that the olim would command.

Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz. It is only here that one can live a full Jewish life – it is explicit in keriat shema. It may be true thrat some are not able at the moment but the sad fact is that most do ot even think that aliya is an option under any circumstances. Even worse, some come here under phony baloney “student” visas and thus cannot vote. In effect, they are removing themselevs from the public.

The rest of your contentions don’t even deserve further answer. They are simply the words of Spies.

Just as a P.S.: HaKatan, just because they say something in Brisk, it does not mean it is emes min ha’Shomaim. Why don’t they try moving back to Poland or Russia if it is that bad in Israel?

ZD, there’s a draft there.

question: does anybody actually think the country would last for more than a few weeks with charedim in the drivers seat? i mean if all the knesset and high political positions were filled by the most qualified (lol, just lol) charedim.

Negative birth rate means you have less than 2.1 kids per couple (The number needs to be greater than 2 to have a population increase)

In other words there are not enough births to replace the deaths that occur

Brony strikes again.

Dont be so shocked the Austrians would want Jews. The Germany is the 3rd largest Jewish population in central Europe and they are immigrants.

I am willing to guess the Austrians would rather have jews than Muslims or Gypsies

i’m serious dude. i can only wonder what the budget would look like…

Avi K -“Every 70,000 new olim equals a Knesset seat. With all of the current religious members this would make a very strong plurality.”

Instead of admitting your lies you just say plurality. But they wouldn’t make a majority. And what would Israel do with so many Frum Jews? Of course they would draft them to try to Shmad more of them to their Zionist AZ!

“Not to mention the economic strength that the olim would command.”

What economic strength? All Zionists hold that all Charedim are parasites. You mean they really don’t hold that? You mean they actually contribute to society? Naw, it can’t be.

HaKatan, this is our outrageous! Rav Ya’akov Kamenetzky, Rav Moshe and other Agudah Gedolim did not hold like that. Neither do the Chassidim except for Satmar. Stop the obfuscation!

As i mentioned above the moetzes gedolei torah of the agudah in 1937 by a majority ruling-said that creation of medina was ok if it has Torah borders and will be run religiously – i believe this assumes permission of ruling nation- which was England until they passed it off to UN and the UN voted in the majority in favor of israel -binding all nations to the decision- so its not yimridu b’emos- and if yo see rashi on yaalu bichoma(end of kesuvos) – he says yad chazaka- and many shittos learn that you can’t take israel by force but if go up peacefully ie with permission- then no oath is violated. Also, the argument that they did take it militarily because 24 hrs later arabs fought over it – has no relevance because the permission of the nations in the UN of which the arabs were members allowed it – then israel declared it with permission and then did not fight for it – but defended their land (given with permission) in a defensive battle which is also totally muttar and allowed. Also as i mentioned before even the Brisker Rav who disagreed – said that since moetzes voted for it- it will happen. By the way the argument that since there are casualties in EY- it proves that the oath was violated is not correct because we were persecuted and killed for years and years before that and only a few years before the state was made 6 million jews were murdered in cold blood and did not receive help until it was too late – so jews dying has nothing to do with medina but rather jewish people’s judgement in galus by Hashem. Also see Rav Dessler Michtav Meliyahu(bnei brak) who says one must recognize the hasgacha that post the destruction of the jews – the jews are thriving in ey. Also many jews are not attacked outright even in other nations because of fear that israeli teams of agents will come after them. also, although secular zionism is a wrong hashkafa on life – it doesnt mean that the creation of the state is wrong especially given the aguda’s position even though they were anti secular zionism. And since the state already exists we have every right to live and defend our lives there – because of vi’chai bahem and haba lihargicha haskem li’hargo

Just Emes, +1

HaKatan: It’s not Kefirah. It’s a legitimate Shittah in the Rishonim (the Ramban he quoted). It might even be a majority Shittah as I don’t think anyone argues explicitly. I don’t know if we hold by it, but it’s certainly a Shittah. Unless the Ramban was a Kofer too?

Just Emes:

I like your screen name, but unfortunately your post doesn’t agree with it.

The Zionists did not at all “go up peacefully”, not in any dictionary. Nor was their ascent with the world’s permission. The UN itself wrote that the Zionism took the Balfour declaration to a far greater extent than what they allowed. Besides, the Zionists didn’t even stick to the partition plan, which the Arabs anyways rejected, so there was no permission.

Also, it’s not wise to believe Zionist propaganda about how the Arabs suddenly swooped in or about anything else, for that matter. Do you think Ben Gurion was stupid and didn’t know what would happen? The Arabs had been protesting and worse for years already. The Zionists had no permission from anyone to take any part of Yerushalayim. This is ridiculous. Call a spade what it is. Zionist wars were a clear violation of the oaths.

Just Emes (for MDD, too):

(continued)

But that’s “only” one of the oaths. The other oath, of being meoreir the ahava before its time, was still violated even if it would have been with everyone’s permission, which it wasn’t.

Also, Google (no quotes) “Rabbi Reisman Zionism”.

“…most of the Torah rabbis opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in our ancient homeland…As Rabbi Reuven Grozovsky wrote, the ideals don’t change. The ideal of sticking to the three oaths remains [even after the founding of the State].” And that’s before he gets to the Satmar Rov’s position.

As to the end of your post, “many jews are not attacked outright even in other nations because of fear that Israeli teams of agents will come after them”, this is laughable. Jews in other countries have, on occasion, Hashem Yishmor, suffered anti-semitic attacks. Have you read about Zionists knights in shining armor rushing in to save them?

Aderaba, our gedolim have also written that Zionism has given non-Jews further “ammunition” in their hatred against Jews.

Regarding the Holocaust, read what the Zionists admit about their actions/inactions during that terrible time.

For example:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2

If you are referring to my statement that Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz, I take extreme umbrage at your denigration of Ramban.

It is not a simple Ramban, but it is an Offen Ramban. I’m going to have to agree here that it is a valid Shittah, even if I don’t see it paskened L’Halacha (and certainly not by the pseudo-Satmers here)

Sam2, instead of “taking extreme umbrage” (which I doubt) at something nobody never said, it would be better to learn the sugya and see just how inapplicable this mitzvah is, even according to the Ramban, bizman haZeh.

The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.

Rav Elchonon Wasserman, in Ikvisa diMishicha, said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara (biShituf).

Zionists have no valid answers.

Stop harping about the Rov and Reb Elchonan, what about others?!?

HaKatan; you routinely quote the Brisker Rov and Reb Elchonon with harsh interpetations of the meidfnah. Please supply written words or a video. Otherwise, you are just blowing smoke.

I belive Rav Yaakov Kamenisky was Pro-Zionist

When he was told about the Satmar Rebbe’s insistance that miracles did not occur in 1967. He said Hashem doesnt need the Satmar’s Rebbe approval for a miracle

benignuman, no.

But I assume you never read the severe things that other gedolim said about Rabbi Kook (in particular) and Rabbi Soloveichik and their positions. In the case of Rabbi Kook, they banned learning from his works. As for Rabbi Teichtal, he was not a Zionist, and his hakdama says as much.

Regarding the others, assuming you are being truthful that they are Zionists, are you saying that any of these other Rabbis were equal in greatness to the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon, Rabbi JB Soloveichik’s own predecessors like the Brisker Rov, the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Kotler and others?

HaKatan; Against my wishes, I am being dragged back into answering your outrageous arguments. First- who are you- or we- to gauge someone’s greatness? Rav Zevin, zz’l, knew as much as Torah as anyone you mentioned. Certainly, Rav Kook zz.l, was of equal stature. But, regardless of this artificial measure, events prove someone wrong or right. You continue to promulgate the fantasy opinion that things are terrible in Eretz Yisroel, that everyone is being shot at and killed, that it would be just honky-dory if all jews lived under Moslem sovereignty. All of these arguments are the equal of seeing pink elephants fly over the roof.

In fact, the medinah is thriving, Torah is at its heighest in a thousand years (at least)and the real danger is for Jews living in France, Argentina, Russia, Hingary.etc….

So, continue presenting your fanciful arguments. Sadly for you, few people beleive in them.

And, can you please explain to me why the Brisker zz’l, went to live in Eretz Yisroel rather that the United States? How could he live together with al lthrse “ovdei avodah zarah”?