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Joseph, at least in some places, at least in some time period there was only one beshow, and it was on the night before the chasunah! Not much veto power there. It just shows that not everything they did in Europe was right and should be emulated.
If anyone is interested in how Rav Dessler held shidduchim should work, see Michtav M’Eliyahu Vol. 1 pages 73-74.
He says that 50-60 years earlier (this was written in ?”?), the parents chose the spouse, and that it made for more successful marriages.
“Not much veto power there.”
Rabbi Abraham J Twerski MD mentioned (in a tape I think) that his father did not meet his mother until the Chuppah. Rabbi Twerski asked his father that doesn’t the Gemara say that a man is supposed to see his future wife before the wedding. His father said that he “saw” her at the vort. Someone brought him over to the doorway of women’s section of the vort and said, “do you see her over there?”. She was among other girls/women over there. Rabbi Twerski senior was like, “umm….yes”, not able to tell exactly. Rabbi Twerski reports that his parents had a long and successful marriage.
MDG, are you serious?!? What does that one case prove? Outrageous!
DY, I wonder if the people involved thought that. Some abuse victims are also content to stay where they are.
“MDG, are you serious?!? What does that one case prove?”
Doesn’t prove anything really. Maybe just shows how some did it. I just found it interesting.
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I think that for those of us who have lived away from home for some time, like for yeshiva or lehavdil for a job, parents choosing the spouse won’t work as well as before. The parents don’t have as good of an understanding of their child’s needs and wants.
” doesn’t the Gemora say that a woman would rather be married to a bad husband than to not be married? “
Bad yes, like poor in money or poor in physicality, but NOT abusive.
Besides which, at the end of that sugya, Reish Lakish says that she tolerates a bad husband so that if she is mezana, she can claim it’s her husband’s child.
Joseph, the Gemorah also says that a father is not allowed to marry off his daughter “until she grows up and says:”I want Ploni (for a husband)”. So, it is a stirah regarding women. One of the ways to answer it is that if she agrees to a kiddushin “sight unseen”, she does not care, but there are other women who do care.
I misquoted what Reiss Lakish said, but I got the idea right. The following is from the Soncino translation, kitubot 75 A. Artscroll has a better translation and commentary.
[of the size of an] ant her
seat is placed among the great.22 R. Papa said: Though her husband be a carder23 she calls him to the
threshold and sits down [at his side].24 R. Ashi said: Even if her husband is only a cabbage-head25
she requires no lentils26 for her pot.27
A Tanna taught: But all such women28 play the harlot and attribute the consequences29 to their
husbands
Joseph,
I think I understand you better now. I don’t directly see a difference, but I would like to say the following diyuk: the Gemara mentions problems with a husband (poor, puny, etc) that a wife would tolerate, but it specifically leaves out abuse.
Joseph, that heter is a be’dieved one. See Tosfos, Kiddushin 41A. It is clear that Chazal le’katchila did not want that.
“…doesn’t the Gemora say that a woman would rather be married to a bad husband than to not be married?”
Keep in mind that at the time the Gemora was written, it was almost unheard of for a woman to hold down a job, or function in society in a meaningfull way if she was not married.
Things are a bit different nowadays.
Joseph: It depends. The Rav points out that there are two types of psychological assumptions in the Gemara. Some are just the Gemara noticing the psychology of the people around them (for example, the assumption that a person won’t lie when it is obvious that his lie will be discovered) and those can change over time (and therefore any Halachah that sprouts up based on those assumptions can change). This isn’t radical. Rishonim have said this already.
The other type of assumption is one that is built into the Briah (I believe the Rav called it an ontological truth). Those (his prime example of it was the Tav Lemeitav assumption) and those cannot be changed, no matter what we notice in the psychology of those who surround us.
Since Dr. Abraham J. Twerski’s parents were cited here as an example, and somebody used the word “abuse” to express their reaction, I would like to make a statement specific to this family.
The Twerskis of Milwaukee are known for being extremely stable, down-to-earth, caring and agreeable people. They are actually quite exceptionable in their capacities of interpersonal dealings and approachable leadership. That is neither a reflection, nor an endorsement of the way their parents were married. It is simply a truth.
It is my opinion that their incredible talents and reputations may very well be a reflection of their genetics (nature) AND certainly their nurture (observable middos passed down). Ask (almost) anyone who deals with these people on a regular basis. I have been thus fortunate.
I can not say, for certainly this is only known to Hashem, but it seems to me, that having such middos passed down, AND being extremely aware of it (as they are, incredibly without ga’avah), might make for a successful marriage despite the young chosson and kallah not knowing each other before.
As far as their next generation, since they are normal people, and quite insistent on being normal and approachable, it is understandable that not every shidduch involving the offspring of the parents was successful. Every situation is different, and every individual, if raised in a healthy way, is a separate entity with an independent personality. I am also quite sure that their children definitely saw/met their respective spouses, some more than others before their shidduchim, despite their strong and proud adherence to their mesorah.
Again, this is neither an endorsement, nor even a study of the format of the senior Twerski’s (Z”L) form of pre-marital introduction. It is simply a statement meant to maintain the high regard that I, and many others have for this wonderful family, who have given, and continue to give of themselves, publicly, as well as very privately to others. Would that we would have more such examples of Kiddush Hashem amongst us!
Joseph: I think this thread went off topic with this post:
“51. Some abuse victims are also content to stay where they are.
mdd, doesn’t the Gemora say that a woman would rather be married to a bad husband than to not be married? “
To summarize where we were before we went off track:
1) Mammelle said,
” I think a major difference is that for the most part Litvish women are expected to have a career long term while for the most part Chasidish women are not expected to and most of her focus is on raising a family and homemaking — beyond the first few years while her husband learns and she must work.”
2) Daas Yochid said,
“There is more parental support (I don’t just mean financial) in the first couple of years.” This was backed up by Moshiach Agent.
3) But I think we can pretty much forget about the idea due to the comment,
“I think it would be a disaster for the Litvish community.” which was backed up by Popa
I do have a suggestion that is based on this idea. There are probably a small number of Litvish girls who could enter the world of the beshow if they were prepared properly. Perhaps this would require that they and their parents decide to send them to a Chassidische high school at age 14? It would be apparent very quickly whether the other girls accepted them or not. If not, they would leave and go to a Litvish high school. If the other girls accepted her, she could try the beshow system at 18-19. If that didn’t work, she could simply go back to the Litvish shadchanim at age 20. That small number of Litvish girls might be enough to solve the shidduch crisis based on the assumption that the Chassidische velt has a reverse shidduch crisis (too many boys).
Perhaps this would require that they and their parents decide to send them to a Chassidische high school at age 14?
Not gonna happen.
There are more litvish girls who switch over hashkafically to a chassidishe hashkafa than you would think. I personally know a few and have friends that have other friends who did as well. Each has different reasons for doing it, some more hashkafic, some having to do partially with the lower level of kollel support expected… each to their own on that part.
Usually, they switch over when its time for shidduchim and have no problem getting a shidduch. Going to chassidishe high school at age 14 in order to get a shidduch sounds a bit weird to me. I think that people should not raise their children for “a shidduch”. Instead, they should raise them as children.
I guess if your daughter is thinking of switching directions at a younger age, I am sure a chassidishe summer camp may agree to take her in, it would give a more social atmosphere without four years of commitment to a high school.
Was this thread meant to end up being about how in
chassidishe marriages, the man wears the pants?
People are more likely to stare at the man’s shtreimel and make unintelligible comments about his veisse zacken and crazy comments about shaving heads with no knowledge base?
I find the dialogues here rather amusing. Most of the points of compare and contrast, beginning with the OP, are based on sheer generalization. In one of Dr. Abraham Twerski’s books, he quips about how the Ten Commandments stopped at 10, but that #11 would have been, “Thou shalt not generalize”. There are good marriages, and there are bad marriages. The ingredients that render them either extreme are not specific to any one culture, background, persuasion, or “team”. Litvish versus Chassidish has zero bearing on the matter, and knowing which direction the individual parties and their families come from has no predictive value in understanding the lasting power of a marriage. There are no numbers to prove this, but having spoken to many therapists, dayanim, toanim, and other rabbonim, I have yet to encounter anyone that can point a finger.
The elements in successful marriage have been described in many books and publications. We might bicker about some of the details and advance differing opinions. We might also fall into the traps of making generalizations that fail to indicate much intellect. We have all heard the lines about bad marriages are all about money, in-laws, intimacy, and the internet. These are not informative either. Each couple will develop its own norms and patterns, and the input from their families or origin, plus other exposure to role models of married life will have the greatest impact. The role of chosson and kallah teachers cannot be minimized, though many complain that these sources of guidance are awfully inadequate.
The main influences on the happiness and success of marriage include a hefty helping of midos tovos, a meaningful role of Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem, and the desire to “make it work”. None of these factors are distinguished by “Litvish” or “Chassidish”.
The Shidduch system has its merits, and people should follow their madrichim in determining what that should be. Dating this way or that, beshows, numbers of dates, etc. have little to no ultimate bearing on the outcome of the marriage. Again, survey the professionals and rabbonim who are involved. I did. These generalizations are fundamentally worthless. Nice try, nice discussion, but it fails to contribute useful knowledge.
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