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Oftentimes when we’re having a discussion about shidduchim, or solutions to the shidduch crisis, someone will suggest the Litvish oilem adopt parts of the Chasidish shidduch system since it seems the Chasidim do not have close to the same degree of a shidduch crisis as the Yeshivish oilem have. Someone will then inevitably retort that cannot be done since Chasidim and Litvaks have very different expectations from marriages.
So my question today is specifically what are the different expectations from marriage, and from a husband or wife, that the Chasidim and the Yeshivish oilem differ from each other? How do their marriages differ from each other.
And a secondary question today is how are each of their respective shidduch systems setup and suited particularly for their system of marriages and spousal expectations.
I yield the floor.
I’ve never heard this theory before.
Maybe today is strawman day.
Chassidim can get married younger because there is more parental support (I don’t just mean financial) in the first couple of years.
There are also fewer expectations because there is less exposure (in many cases) to secular culture.
I didn’t say it does, and the comment of mine which you quoted doesn’t relate to the shidduch crisis.
In choice of spouse, not in the marriage itself. I don’t recall ever talking about expectations in the marriage.
You can have the floor back now.
He probably means appearance-wise.
Joseph
Chassidim are less attracted to the physical world of technology today. Their lives are made much more simple & they devote their marriage to raising a family, without the need to worry about support cause that is taken care of before the wedding.
versus Litvish are more worldly & require more physical stuff thus costing more to live & support (if being supported) & if husband works life is still expensive. “the fancier life you expect the more it will cost YOU”
The difference is who had a dog or cat as a child and who didn’t. Having a dog teaches responsibility and having a cat teaches patience in dealing with people who don’t listen to you. People from some groups are more cat sensitive while the other is more dog sensitive so it is counted like they have one even if it lives a mile away, or for the other group it’s counted like they have one if there are three living in the house.
I think a major difference is that for the most part Litvish women are expected to have a career long term while for the most part Chasidish women are not expected to and most of her focus is on raising a family and homemaking — beyond the first few years while her husband learns and she must work. Norms depend on where one lives, cost of living, which Chasidus, and even which school the girl attended and are constantly evolving so it’s not cast in stone.
Joseph: DY’s quote was a different context.
DY–do you think that difference would lead to beshows vs dating?
Some very yeshivish families have more than 10 kids, I have seen ranging from 11-16. Some Chassidish families will have less and keep it there (like seven or less and no plan on having more).
Chassidish families are less likely to be so into the idea of kollel support to the extent that they are in the yeshivish circles.
The process of being set up is different. In order to get a shidduch in the Chassidishe velt, someone who has enough information about you like = to vetting through end of third date in litvishe velt, has to vet for you. Shidduch resumes have to have at least 10 references and the beshow thing.
Yeshivish is dating oriented. But both litvish and chassidishe have shidduch resumes and see shadchanim themselves.
In the chassidishe velt there is a bit more of a drastic caste system. BT is either expected to marry a BT or someone from a non-chassidishe FFB background. If you are a BT and look for a Chassidishe FFB from Chassidishe family, you will find yourself with someone who has a disability such as needing a wheelchair, or undisclosed bipolar… something like that. Some chassidim go on dates in addition to beshows.
Yeshivish also has somewhat of a caste system, but people do not think about it as much. Basically, if you have been frum less than five years people may do a more deep search into you. But if your dating, you can break up with someone more easily than with a Beshow. Yichus with yichus and so on.
Joseph: DY’s quote was a different context.
Correct.
DY–do you think that difference would lead to beshows vs dating?
Yes, not just the beshows themselves, but the whole process, in which most of the decision is made by the parents, with the chosson/kallah basically just having veto power. It would be a disaster in the Litvish community, but works (on the whole) for the chassidish communities.
In regards to Mashiach Agent, the materialism part is simply not true. Long term Lakewood style learning after marriage is not a communal norm in the chassidishe velt. Chassidish men are expected to know when to go to work (when wife is pregnant/ parents stop paying your bills). Plenty of chassidishe women I know wear high heeled stilettos and fancy clothing that looks extravagant in nature. Upscale brands and feel a significant amount of pressure. A condo in BP today costs $1 million to buy. Families with 8+ children are living in condos with pressure to keep things extremely neat, have upscale things and stay thin after having kids. To say that Chassidishe people are not into material objects is not even remotely possible.
If simple lifestyle means trying to take a more natural approach in your connection to Hashem, with emphasis on intent as opposed to doing everything or else, then yes, chassidim are more simple.
Litvish is more likely to say “If you make three shidduchim in your lifetime, you will go straight to Gan Eden.” Almost implying that failure to make three shidduchim in your lifetime sends you straight to gehenom.
Chassidish is more likely to say “Making shidduchim helps men fulfill the mitzvah of pru ur’vu and as a shadchan, you are Hashem’s agent in helping a man fulfill that mitzvah”. Implying that you should want to help other people serve Hashem and fulfill mitzvos.
Also, for the record, not all chassidishe married women shave their heads.
ah, so DY disagrees with me.
Perhaps. Do you think we could do shidduchim the same way the chassidim do?
No. But not because we have different relationships.
I’m not saying it’s because we have different relationships.
I don’t think I’ve commented on the different types of relationships we may or may not have – that was Joseph misunderstanding me.
I think there’s a different expectation for how well we will know our future spouses before we get married, and a different level of relying on parents to help choose the spouse, and then to help the young couple adjust to married life.
Therefore, they can do beshows where it’s a 75% “arranged” marriage, and they can both be 18-20 years old.
Therefore, there are a higher percentage of them getting married, and no real age gap causing a disproportionate number of girls to boys, therefore no shidduch crisis according to definitions #1 and #4.
Popa,
So why do you think beshows wouldn’t work for us?
Is a sablefish (beshow) kosher?
So why do you think beshows wouldn’t work for us?
I think it would work just as well for us as it does for them.
Chassidish generally have more children because they get married younger
A chaddish woman usually gets married at 17 or 18. A yeshishvish 20-21
thats a 3 year or so head start and the ability to have 2 or 3 kids before the Yeshivish are even ready to start
I think it would work just as well for us as it does for them.
If I’m reading you correctly, you buy in to the classic Litvish thinking that chassidim have worse marriages than Litvaks.
I don’t.
ZD, that’s not the only reason.
ZDad: Chasidim generally marry between 18 & 20. 17 is NOT THE NORM in the US.
As a cost saving measure, the Rebbe made a Takana that all Keddushin in his Chassidus has to be done with a Shtar Shein Bo Shave Prutah?
If I’m reading you correctly, you buy in to the classic Litvish thinking that chassidim have worse marriages than Litvaks.
No. I just also don’t buy into the “outsider idealizing” that they all have perfect marriages. Some of them have terrible marriages, just like us.
Exactly when Chassidic women get married is not really the point, the point is its about 2-3 years before Litvish women
Popa:
So I’m not sure what we disagree about.
Let’s try this: Do you think there are cultural differences which would make beshows a much worse idea for Litvish families than for chassidish families?
Let’s try this: Do you think there are cultural differences which would make beshows a much worse idea for Litvish families than for chassidish families?
After adjusting for the cultural difference defined as that they do beshows and we don’t?
But we also used outhouses and didn’t have electricity for thousands of years!
And that’s the way it was for thousands of years in Jewish life.
You’re making that up. You have no idea what it was for thousands of years.
After adjusting for the cultural difference defined as that they do beshows and we don’t?
Yes, although that is probably indeed the biggest cultural difference here.
“In die alte tzeiten.”
Other than that, flawless post.
You are welcome.
Okay, I can’t prove to you it was such for “thousands” of years. Would hundreds of years make you happier?
You don’t even know how they were done for hundreds of years. You have “many maiselach.”
And I’ll note that having the parents agree at the age of 3 is NOT what the chassidim are doing now today, so are you suggesting beshows, or are you suggesting agreeing at the age of 3?
Gluckel of Hameln wrote a lot about arranging marriages for her preteen children- but they got MARRIED when they were preteens. Gluckel herself had gotten married as a very young teen.
Some things are probably better off having changed…
Maybe not, writersoul.
Gluckel’s diary is one of those things I always wanted to read and never got around to.
Does she write about a shidduch crisis?
Maybe the way they arranged marriages back then was better!
Who knows?
Not me.
Where’s AZ?
South of UT.
Polygamy used to be legal there. That would also solve the shidduch crisis, you know…
Joseph, who about the fact that Gemorah in Kiddushin 41A says you should not have prearranged marriages where the boy and the girl do not have a say. And we pasken le’Halochah like that!! And if in Europe they did differently, they were wrong!
That Gemorah is also just plain common sense.
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