The differences between Litvish/Yeshivish marriages and Chasidish marriages

Could you just tell us which side you’re going to take, Joseph, before anyone wastes time posting their opinions for you to “correct.”

I don’t want to offend DaasYochid, because this might not be what he meant. But, usually when people say stuff like what is mentioned in the OP, they are implying that Chassidishe marriages are a purely pragmatic instrument for fulfilling a mitzvah, whereas Litvish marriages have an actual romantic component. I don’t necessarily believe this to be true at all, but I do think it’s what people are implying when they talk like that.

“It should be pointed out that the Litvish/Yeshivish velt in Eretz Yisroel has a system closer to the American Chasidim than to the American Litvish/Yeshivish world. And it works for them.”

Maybe their expectations of marriage are more similar to Chasidim than to the American Litvish/Yeshivish world

While you are clarifying, perhaps also distinguish between “Chassideshe” and “Rebbishe” kiddushin.

I’m hesitant since DY’s response to your question might be right.
but here goes…

first a few questions if you don’t mind

1) Which (of the two) are you familiar with and how do you define their expectations of marriage?
2) Have you heard sholam bayis vaadim/shmuzin/misser shmisen from either group?
3) Are you familiar with the song “do you love me” from fiddler on the roof? (the lyrics are available on line) which (if any) of the 2 groups does that description of love/marriage describe?

Trying to generalize about whether chassidishe or Litvishe marriages are more or less “successful”l, “happier”, or characterized by any other objective metric that can be reverse-engineered to derive a strategy for shadchannus seems a bit absurd. People are people and the individuals will ultimate determine marriage outcomes. Of course there are some obvious differences in minhagim and stylistic attributes but at the core, the choson/kalah are the key, not as someone said their lvush or whether they include va’yatzmach purkanei in kaddish.

“Trying to generalize about whether chassidishe or Litvishe marriages are more or less “successful”l, “happier”, ”

I’m not sure if that was directed at me, but in no way did I suggest that. They are “different”

joseph
“My definition of their expectations is to build a bayis ne’emen b’yisroel, with all that details. A bit vague, no doubt”
A bit vague, certainly. The question is also how that bayis ne’eman looks. You say ou are familiar with “2. From the Yeshivish side.” I’m familiar with both. There are many pesukimmamarei chazal that describe the husband-wife relationship. Yeshivish shmuzin put more of an emphasis on “building a home together” looking for an “ezer kenegdo” describing the couple in terms of “rayim huahuvim” To a certain extent the Yeshivish world is looking for a partner, a friend even. To become friends you need to spend more time together, you need to have somewhat similar interests. I wouldnt quite say s NC put it that “have an actual romantic component.” since that tends to develop later among both. Chasdish shmuzin (and there are a looooot less of these, which is part of the distinction) focus more on “Vehu yimshol bach” (I dont mean this in a negative way, it is a pasuk in the torah after all) that the husband is the leader of the household A popular chazal used to describe the husband’s role is “שְׁלשָׁה דְבָרִים צָרִיךְ אָדָם לוֹמַר בְּתוֹךְ בֵּיתוֹ עֶרֶב שַׁבָּת עִם חֲשֵׁכָה. עִשַּׂרְתֶּם. עֵרַבְתֶּם. הַדְלִיקוּ אֶת הַנֵּר.” his role is to supervise the rest of his family’s yidishkeit. His wife cleans the home, prepeares the meals and his job is to come home and ask “עִשַּׂרְתֶּם. עֵרַבְתֶּם. הַדְלִיקוּ אֶת הַנֵּר” Of course hsi job is also to provide for her leaving her free to raise the children. They aren’t equals .
Again this isn’t better or worse per se. the nature of the relationships and thus their courtship is different.
Of course it isn’t all black and white, and of course in Yeshivish homes the husband is “head of the household” and In chasidish homes the wife isn’t just another kid .
And of course this is a generalization and their is a wide spectrum between them. Those hwo are more yeshivish have relationships more similar to those of chasidim, and their dating reflects that.

You said “Do you think Bucharian Jews conduct martial life the same way Modern Orthodox Jews do? Of course there are differences.”

what differences did you mean?

I’ll throw this out there, not sure if it is true or not. In the chashidish oilam, the parents do the dating for the kids with all the checking out, meeting with the other side, the couple only meets when the parents decide that the shidduch is marriage-worthy. It works because of the relationship between parent /child- the couple are usually young, rely on the their parents’ judgment, and since the shidduch is usually within the community, or one very similar, wherein people tend to be more homogenous, the parents are well positioned to be able to determine who will be a fitting life-partner for their child. They are also more used to accepting authority’s decision when it comes to personal decisions (ie Rebbe’s daas Torah)
I think that since the Litvish community is not as tight knit, and children are more independent vs their parents, and start dating a bit older, the reliance on the parents’ judgement is weaker, less dependence on a Rebbe-like figure, hence the couple is more independent when it comes to deciding whom to marry.
The chareidi world in E’Y may be more homogenous at least externally, so they lie somewhere in the middle, but although the dating process is shorter than in Chu”l, it is more similar to American Litvish in that the decision is in the couple’s hands, the parents are not doing the dating and decision making.
So according to my theory, it is not the marriage relationship that is different (Although it may be so), but the child/parent-authority relationship that is different.

“the realities of living together as husband/wife are really the same for ALL frum yidden.”

That isn’t true at all, and I don’t think you even think so. Would you say the realities of husband/wife dynamics are the same for a yeshivish couple where the male learns full time and the woman provides 100% of the household income and for a MO couple where they both contribute equally? The Litvish world is quite possibly the first society in the history of all mankind to attempt a system where the female is the sole provider. Whether or not it’s a successful experiment, you could debate. But, I don’t think it’s possible to say it’s just like any other frum relationship or just like any other relationship. It’s radically different than any other kind of marriage.

To your credit, I have no idea what point Joseph was making with the MO/Bucharian analogy. One is an ethnic group and one is a level of religiosity; a person could easily be both.

The dating system of chabad is definitely more similar to the litvish way, the couple dates until they feel that they will be able to have a successful relationship however long that may be, as of husband learning and wife working, chabad does not believe in that, chabad believes that a man should work, as did many tanaim and amoraim that specifically worked for a living.