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I remember that when I was growing up (which was really not that long ago), almost no matter what shul or city one would find themselves in, one could safely assume that Shachris would take about 45 minutes and Mincha/Maariv would take about 15 minutes each.
However, this no longer appears to be the case. These days, all the minyanim for Shachris that I go to either take 35-40 minutes (usually for the MO or “baalabatish” minyanim), or 50-55 minutes (usually for the “yeshivishe” or chassidish minyanim). The same holds true of Mincha/Maariv – I find that some minyanim always take much shorter than 15 minutes, and some always much longer; but a normal, average minyan is getting harder and harder to come by.
Will the “normal” minyan become another victim of the immoderation and partisanship that is overtaking the Orthodox world, with those on the left moving ever further to the left and those on the right moving ever further to the right?
I think this is an excellent topic. I have found the same thing to be true for myself and am very frustrated by it. Sometimes when my sons go to mincha I am wondering if they made it to their seat before davening ended.
Curious to hear what others feel without pointing to individual shuls or neighborhoods.
OY! I agree. This is one of my pet peeves. We have three minyonim in our shul. The first minyan is a 45 minute one and is called a slow minyan!?
Yeshiva minyonim should take 50-55 min+, as this time of one’s life, when you have no pressure of work or family, is where you should do every thing in the best possible way. But otherwise 45 minutes should be a minimum.
What really upsets me is when a minyan starts late for whatever reason, (previous minyan delayed or waiting for a 10th man, etc) so they ‘speed up’ to finish at the same time.
What helps me is to imagine you are talking to a King, or President, or even a policeman. You wouldn’t mumble as quickly as possible or walk up and down, or read the notice board etc. We have such an opportunity to talk to the Creator of the world 3 times every day!!! How can you rush that?
lots of the reason why davening is shorter is because there is no Rabbi currently davening with them so they don’t have that waiting for the rav time & therefore finish earlier.
People are much busier nowadays. I prefer a quicker minyan myself. Most of the longer minyanim are long because of wasted time rather than actual tefilah. If one comes on time there is no reason for davening to take longer than 45 minutes in the morning or 15 minutes for mincha or mariv.
I’m not as concerned with the “speed” pf the davening as I am, what the members of the tzibur are doing doing the time they spend in shul. It bothers me when most of the minyav “davens” out of a gemara, or some other sefer. Is that tefilla bitzibur?
… or are tapping (on their smartphone) or yapping.
“Will the “normal” minyan become another victim of the immoderation and partisanship that is overtaking the Orthodox world, with those on the left moving ever further to the left and those on the right moving ever further to the right? “
About 25 years ago a friend of mine, while visiting NYC, heard Rabbi Norman Lamm of YU say that he felt that one of biggest problems facing Jewry was the shteibelization of American Jewry. At the time, it sounded funny to us. We (in OOT) had no idea what he meant. But as time goes on, I can see his point.
Growth is fortunate. But unfortunately, it’s all too easy to find a group of like-minded individuals and break away to one’s own bubble, ignoring the rest of the community.
MW, I take it that anyone who does less than you is Reform and anyone who does more is a fanatic.
“Normal” is a relative term. Where I grew up almost all the local minyanim took 30 – 35 minutes (with waiting for the Rav to finish Shema and Shemoneh Esrei). Based on that then the normal minyan is alive and well.
I daven at at minyan that takes ~33 minutes on non-laining days (starting at Rabi Yishmael). If it took longer, people would find a different minyan. Mincha is 15 minutes, arvit is 10 minutes. Shabbat morning at my minyan is 90 minutes and no drasha. The main minyan is 2 hours and 15 minutes, including ~8 minutes of announcements/drasha.
I visit the states on occasion, and it drives me up the wall to sit through a 2.5 – 3 hour Shabbat morning davening.
The more frum Yidden, the more variety of times and styles of davening. Over the last 70 years, the number of frum Jews has been steadily increasingly due to both natural increase and baalei tseuvah. Minyanim do not grow as much as split, the better to accommodate everyone’s preferences. Say Baruch ha-Shem and be happy about it.
takahmamash, Your “~33 minutes on non-laining days (starting at Rabi Yishmael)” translates to a 40 minute davening at our shul which starts from brochos.
Just be glad that there are many minyanim.
The Shule I attend does not pay attention to how much time goes by, they’re really INTO the Davening. (No, not me – the crowd) There’s absolutely no talking, Davening is for real, and big focus in the Kehillah’s priorities.
For me personally, counting the minutes and seconds we are in the audience of HaShem, sounds a mite petty… something like being impatient with it… I don’t want to sound condescending or holier ?”?, these are the moral and ideals we were raised with.
Little Froggie, Your shul sounds like my kind of place.
There are however practical problems with your ideal approach. It is now midwinter as far as the calendar is concerned, and from the earliest time for shachris to the time the children have to go to school is about 1hr 20 min. In the ‘Yeshivishe yohren’ we could daven like that, but at this time, I personally have to look at that as the ideal which will have to wait until my retirement to be rediscovered.
I think there are two threads going on here, which can both be found in most shuls. There are those who say that davening is too quick and they want to spend more time in the presence of The Creator. And there are others who are saying that a 40 min Brochos to Oleinu is enough to achieve what we need to.
mw13, why aren’t you finding a new shul to daven at.
He was done Maariv in nine minutes.
That’s normal here – 10 minutes if the Rav is there, 9 minutes if he isn’t. Does your 9 minutes include “Baruch Hashem L’olam?” My times do not.
I’ve only once davened in the ‘Shomer Shabbos’ on 13th Ave in Boro Park. Mincha with tachanun in 8 min. I could not believe it. But, I have to be honest, the chazan said each word clearly. Quickly, but it was clear. Still, I believe mincha should be 15 min minimum to at least be mechaven pirush hamilos
mw13 what matters most is the quality of your davening so for someone davening in a 35 minute minyan and you find that to quick for you find a different shul if your quality of davening is good than theres no problem
Some people have to get to work on time
During a very fast minyan at Shomrei Shabbos one Monday morning, I found myself doing the leining in my normal Eretz Yisrael speed. After Kohen, a man nudged me and said, “Unless you speed up, no one here will have time for breakfast.” You bet I sped up and finished the davening with huge respect. Why? because every man there could have davened yehidut and enjoyed a leisurely breakfast, but didn’t.
Davening in chutz l’aretz is of poor quality. It is rote. Plain an simple.
“Davening in chutz l’aretz is of poor quality. It is rote. Plain an simple. ”
Not any more or less so than in E”Y.
Rav Chaim Brisker davened quickly. When someone pointed out that Chazal say that one should daven like he counts money RCB said that he also counted money quickly. Some people need to daven at a certain pace or they lose track. This was called the yetzer hara jumping on the wagon. On the other hand, the Imrei Emmet said that already in his day the yetzer hara was driving it. In any case, different people have different needs. This is also why some shuls have several minyanim.
Aside from the question of WHAT the daveners of the 29-33 minute shachris speed-daveners are really doing differently from the 45-55 minute slowpokes, I’m even more intrigued about how many of the CR posters daven with stopwatches and can distinguish between a 9 minute and 10 minute maariv. Thre is a big difference between reading the shmoneh esresh really slooowly from a siddur, visualizing and and focusing on the proper pronunciation and meaning of each word versus rushing through the amidah and then waiting around schmoozing with your chevrah waiting respectfully while the rav (and perhaps one other chashuve davener) finish.
Heres my pet peeve, the baal tefillah takes his time by chazoras hashatz. R. Zilberstein says that it is tircha detziburah.
Where do you Avi K, get the nerve to compare yourself to Rav Chaim Brisker? You are but a speck compared to him, yet you will take his speed of davening as a cue for how you should Daven. You lack not only Komodo chachomim but you are mevazeh and mezalzel them simultaneously.
I think this is also related to a pet peeve of mine which is the way pesukei dezimra is treated today. It has become the “optional” part of davening that the majority of people seem to think is OK to skip. I think if people would follow the Mishna brurah psak of making up the missed parts of PD after davning most people would not be so quick to miss it and davening may get back to a more “normal” pace.
TalmidChochom, where did AviK compare himself to Rav Chaim Brisker in his post? How was he mevazeh chochamim? What he did was melamed zchus on those who daven quickly by saying that for some, it increases their kavana, and backed it up with a source from a noted talmid chochom. Aren’t we supposed to learn from the hanhagos of the gedolim and try to emulate them?
CTRebbe; I don’t know where you are davening but I don’t see the majority of people skipping most of pesukei dezimra where I Daven.
You made me recall the story of Erev Pesach when the Gabai announced that we skip Mizmor Lesoda, one fellow was puzzled how to do that since he only said Boruch Sheamar, Ashrei & Yishtabach all year long!No, not in this instance. You dont daven fast because a godol hador davens fast. Ask your rosh yeshiva. Likewise one should not be OCD about trfillah.
On weekdays, I think the most significant factor in minyan choices are the modern realities of scheduling for work and family. Obviously, if you have to be at work at a certain time and rely upon scheduled public transportation or have to pick up kids or drive car pool later in the afternoon or be home in time to be with the family for dinner and homework, someone davening from the amud who shows off his chazanus at weekday minyanim or waits for everyone to finish the amidah can be frustrating.
Anyone remember how Mincha-Maariv would start right before shkiya, then take a ten minute break (during which the Rov will usually give a shmuez) followed by Maariv after tzeis?
Breuers I believe was the first American shul to start relying on kulos and doing Ma’ariv right after Mincha. I believe everyone else started when half of Monsey would pack into KAJ every evening.
Talmidchochom, I still would like to respectfully disagree. I can’t ask my Rosh Yeshiva what to do because I never had one and I am not joining this discussion from personal experience because I do not go and never have gone to minyan daily, and have not even gone on shabbos for years, exception being parshas zachor and shofar on R”H.
But, I can say this about being judgemental on how other people daven:
We look at our gedolim, see that they davened in the best way for them to have kavana, and do the same- daven the best way to have kavana. For some, that is a slow-paced davening, maybe with lots of meaningful singing. For some, it is a quickly moving davening with no down-time for the mind to wander. I have one kid who is ADD who has a really hard time davening. I encourage him to just daven the minimum- brochos and shema, which he can handle, rather than attempt to daven the whole davening (for his age) and space out or not daven at all. Of course, he does not yet have a chiyuv, but there are probably adults out there with ADD as well who have a hard time sitting and focusing through a long davening. Perhaps for these people, a quick davening is the most they can handle and the best for their kavana?The reason for your son truncating his davening is not similar to that of the previously mentioned gedolim “speeding “ their davening. Clearly, your son has a unique situation. However, people racing thru their davening to get to work is very questionable.
It’s disappointing that the focus of this thread turned to being only about davening too quickly. The OP was also being critical of the other extreme.
Most people are prone to zoning out if they have to sit through tedious, yeshivish davening. Yet, most people also can’t truly say every word and still keep up at an MO, 5-minute p’sukei d’zimra style shul. The common-sense intermediate doesn’t seem to exist today in America when it comes to weekday davening.
“Breuers I believe was the first American shul to start relying on kulos and doing Ma’ariv right after Mincha. I believe everyone else started when half of Monsey would pack into KAJ every evening.”
Davening minchah/marriv as a combo after shkiah has been done by Ashekenazim for quite possibly over a thousand years. The Rema davened minchah after shkiah, the Maharil davened minchah after shkiah, chassidim have continued to do so, etc. See siman 233.
The point is, it’s not a kulah just because it’s not your minhag. It also doesn’t retroactively become a kulah just because the M”B prefers that people not do it.
What does this have to do with davening pace anyway?
“Breuers I believe was the first American shul to start relying on kulos and doing Ma’ariv right after Mincha. I believe everyone else started when half of Monsey would pack into KAJ every evening.”
Anecdotally — it appears that in Israel most of the shuls i went to do not daven consecutively — even dati leumi. But maybe i just picked the wrong shuls.
I think that the pace of davening may have something to do with working/commuting. On Long Island the pace of davening (right or wrong) is dictated by the train. In our shul, we have four minyanim in the morning. There is an inverse relationship between how early and how fast. Minyan 1 finishes (on TWF) in about 27 minutes. Minyan 4 finishes in about 40 minutes. In Israel, as well it seems that shacharis takes longer (although it is a little longer anyway).
I personally become frustrated when a visitor is leading the Davening and is slow like it is Yom Tov. If they’re fast I’m ok since I can linger on my own.
I think the sages would support the statement that the Davening should proceed at the normal rate for that specific shul.
A related issue is when a visitor uses different tunes than the shul usually does. I respect the visitor who checks with the Rabbi to learn the customs prior to leading.
Mrs sarah levine is half right re Long Island.
The first minyan is geared to the train schedule and is faster. The second minyan starts over an hour later and is not geared to the schedule. We’ve had retirees complain the first minyan is too fast. They were told adapt or go to the second minyan.“It’s not a kulah just because it’s not your minhag”
Perhaps the most important statement here in the CR since it was postulated that daveners at vasikim miyanim are likely to yawn more frequently during a consolidated mincha/maariv minyan than those who slept through z’man kriyas shema.Mrs sarah levine is half right re Long Island.
The first minyan is geared to the train schedule and is faster. The second minyan starts over an hour later and is not geared to the schedule. We’ve had retirees complain the first minyan is too fast. They were told adapt or go to the second minyan.There is only one shul 🙂
I mixed my metaphors. Where i live there is no train. The four minyanim get progressively slower.
On LI — my understanding is that there are minyanim that are linked to the train schedule. If that is true — especially with minyanim that start pretty early — you will, by necessity, get faster minyanim.
I have never done the study — but it would appear to me that most shuls that i go to (which happen to be MO) are 30 minutes exactly.
In Passaic — there is a shul that has a sign on the amud directing the Shatz to take at least 6 minutes (I think) for shemoneh esrei.
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