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kiruvwife: being an observant jew is only an obligation if u believe that god runs the world.
teen-if you think about it-it’s a lot easier, and much less worrisome to believe than not to believe. I know many not yet observant jews who believe that G-d runs the world. And there are many jews who are just being exposed to the concept of Torah true Judaism well into their lives who don’t yet observe things who are cognizant of what their obligations are, and realize the time and process involved. The process to more observance is sometimes long and arduous, but extremely fulfilling.
I thought the word obligation might get to you, so we can leave it out of the discussion for now.
Intellectual honesty would lead a person to realize it’s a lot scarier to believe that G-d doesn’t run the world -as opposed to believing otherwise.
Like I said previously, ultimately it is a choice, a part of our b’chira…and believing is going to bring a person to act a certain way.
kiruvwife: u seem to be saying that because someone is religious they act diffrently….y do u say that? is it impossible for someone who is not religious to be a better person than someone who is religious?
and it may be scarier to be in charge of ur own life than to believe that u have someone watching u every second but that does not make it the truth….truth is sometimes scary
i.e. If a person believes in Olam Haba and the convening of a Heavenly Court upon the neshama’s arrival, that will cause a person to act differently.
I refer to religious on the inside–Judaism needs to be judged based on it’s inherent value, not judged only based on the people who practice it. A person’s inherent goodness is judged by Hashem. We as humans don’t have that insight. We each need to be our own judge,,,helps us get further in life and helps us not waste our intellectual and emotional energies.
Also, if a person doesn’t believe that it’s not the truth, how do they know they’re right? What if they’re wrong? that’s just not worth it……
I just have one question for all the people who believe we cannot conclusivly prove Hashem and Torah are the absolute truth and our faith is not simply based on ‘belief,’ ‘feeling’ and ’emotion.’
Why do you act on it then?
You, yourself, are then not listening to the Torah which says emotions should be based on knowledge, understanding, and logic not ‘feeling’.
That is what the rest of the world believes. Emotion first then come up with some backwords rational for it. Torah does not like rationalizing. Most of you went to college with these stupid GenEds where people sit around and speak about what they feel and then their reasons.
Torah is fact and it can be proven for those who are not to lazy. Men need to pick up a gemara and seriously learn for themselves until they see there is no other option and the truth is clear. Women can do so other ways learning different materials and simply looking at the world.
The alef bet begins with an alef middle is mem and end is taf for no other reason than to tell us what is emet.
Since teen wants to know how we can prove Hashem is running the world, he must have some reasons as to why he may not. Teen, can you please explain to us and then we can maybe answer your question to your satisfaction. But, ultimatly, you will need knowledge from study to see black and white.
A doctor knows intrisicly when a pt walks in after a history the diagnosis because he has studied to the point the it is black and white. If you do so, you will find all your answers.
Have a good night.
kiruvwife: u still havent explained y i should believe in judiasm and not christianity….they believe in heaven too so they should b justas good of people and should act the same as jews do….and what if christianity is the true religion mayb i should believe in christianity bec…just in case…its not worth not believing in it bec if it is the true religion then im going to hell since i dont believe in jesus
tal:im just trying to understand i do not believe either way rght now…and u can only no that god exost and all that if u study both sides and compare them not if u learn gemara all day and brainwash urslef to the point where u are one hundred percent convinced that god has to be running the world…u need to look at the veiwpoint that god does not rule the world and compare the 2 and come to what you believe to be the correct conclusion…
tal-the discussion stemmed from the difference between believing and knowing. Obviously when one is living the naaseh v’nishmah then they will be zoche to having the menuchas hanefesh of realizing Hashems presence, and the yishuv ha’daas that observing and learning the Torah is complete and total truth. (Which also includes integrating into ones belief system that Hashem is always running the world)
That’s a choice that has to be made–if that is where that person wants to be. It takes time and maturity to get there, and a new placement of one’s nekudas ha’bechira.
I share with a lot of our fellow yidden who want proof, etc. before they take on certain observances, and it’s hard for them to digest the concept of action before understanding. When the concept of na’aseh v’nishma is understood that takes a lot of the burden off, again if that is where they ultimately want to go. The key is they have to want it.
teen-more suggested reading: “If You Were G-d” by R’ Aryeh Kaplan
I’m not sure where all this thread is holding, and I’m not about to read it all, but here are some points.
1) A God that can make the world is far out awesome. He can do a hell of a lot.
2) Our world that God made logically reflects upon him.
Do we not love our children dearly? God is no less; He loves us. Since He loves us, He cares and guides us in a way that is most beneficial.
In addition to my previous post.
God created us with an intense desire to seek Him. Why did He do that? He did so because He wants us to.
The best thing anyone can do is to speak to your innermost self. Let down all your barriers and stupidities and talk honestly with your soul. Your soul is a part of God, so you will speaking with Him as well. Search out what is just and pure. See the world and yourself without your attitude and baseball cap. Cry a little. And come home.
Two of my professors are the top researchers in their respective fields and seriously believe it. My investigation proved it false. If you need to investigate it, do so. I did and I walked away.
Actually, in one of my classes on the processing of logical thought for my BS, three guys in the class asked me why I am taking a class I already know because Jews are taught to think logically. Anything that teaches you logic and thought while providing information cannot possibly brainwash you by definition.
But, you seem quite intelligent, and therefore, if you really want answers and you push yourself, you will find them.
But, anyway, I have to leave to retrieve my sample from the incubator before its destroyed and attend class.
Torah is fact and it can be proven for those who are not to lazy. Men need to pick up a gemara and seriously learn for themselves until they see there is no other option and the truth is clear. Women can do so other ways learning different materials and simply looking at the world.
The alef bet begins with an alef middle is mem and end is taf for no other reason than to tell us what is emet.
Tal, please PROVE the Torah. As far as I know, you can logically talk about why the Torah is right, but there is no real way to prove it beyond any doubt.
Disproving evolution does NOT prove that Hashem created the world.
The way I look at it is this way:
1) Matter cannot be created nor destroyed by humans.
2) Humans are the highest life form that we know of.
3) Since matter cannot be created by any means we know, a higher life form must have created matter (even if you believe in evolution, something must have given evolution the building blocks to play with)
4) This higher life form must have created matter, the building blocks of the world. [Higher life form = Hashem]
After this, you can start debating how matter formed into different things. Evolution? I dont believe thats the way the world formed (although micro-evolution is fact). But ultimately, Hashem created the world.
teen- I did explain why [albeit concisely since the mods are not interested in printed a book here]you should believe in Judaism–it could be it will take time for your mind to process, but you have to want it in order for any explanation to work. You’re in an amazing asking mode now, and if you want true extensive answers the CR is not the place you’re going to get it. You’ll get our attention and respect, but not the full answers you deserve.
A point I’d like to make about Christianity vs. Judaism : Chr. doctrine states that unless you believe in everything they believe in-then you’re doomed to hell. Judaism is the only religion on the planet (1 of about 15,000) that believes that you can be even a non-Jew and still receive a portion in the world to come. What this ultimately is saying, and it takes a very mature mind to integrate the depth of this thinking, is that G-d is the One that gave us everything we believe in, and we are not haughty enough to claim our religion as man made and extending a belief system as the Christians have.
One last very important point—for a person to say that they are (not) willing to believe in something, they have to have honestly, and extensively learned that which they are (not) willing to believe. Since you are a yid, you owe it to yourself to do that learning of Judaism and research, understand it maturely and then discuss those ideas with a competent Torah teacher for you to honestly come to peace of mind. You sound like an honest person who is sincerely looking for the truth. Don’t sell yourself short.
In order for this to be a truly effective exchange of ideas it will be worth your while to read the following:
1)Permission to Believe: by Lawrence Kellemen
2)Beyond a Reasonable Doubt: feldheim publishers
3)If You Were G-d: by Aryeh Kaplan
4)The Torah Lifestyle: by B Shaffier
…….if you really want to know.
teen- one more short point. You don’t need to waste your time comparing both sides—you’re a yid and should first spend you mental energies, brainpower, and G-d given intelligence to plumb the depths and truth of Torah first to find what you’re looking for. After you’ve given that an honest amount of time (probably many months of reading and researching and connecting to a non- judgemental Torah true teacher), then you will be at a place of continued honest intellectual assesment.
actually i dont believe i ever said god doesnt exist…i started with if god does exist how do we know he still controls the world? jjust bec he created us does that mean he still can control us?
“please PROVE the Torah. As far as I know, you can logically talk about why the Torah is right, but there is no real way to prove it beyond any doubt. “
sjs–are you asking to prove that the Torah was given to us by Hashem?
sjs–are you asking to prove that the Torah was given to us by Hashem?
No, that the Torah is 100% truth. Do I believe it? Yes. Are there always ways to doubt it? Yes.
if a person believes in “Moshe Emes v’Soraso Emes” where is there room for doubt?
As far as proving it’s total truth beyond a reasonable doubt, it is possible-read “Beyong a Reasonable Doubt” as I have been suggesting in past posts, as well as “Permission to Receive” by Lawrence Kellemen–awesome reads, and gives a great deal of peace of mind when one comes to the point of realizing that Hashem and His Torah are absolutes in Truth. I deal all the time with people who aren’t interested in the dogma, as I’m sure most who are seeking this answer aren’t, but it’s worth your time to read these as they deal with the intellect.
Kiruvwife, I agree with you. But teen is asking for proof on how we know that Hashem runs the world. Saying “because the Torah says so” doesnt prove anything. I dont know – I feel like I am being murky today!
I wasn’t saying it to teen- I thought you were asking. my responses to teen were of a very different nature, as was needed.
Ah ok, now I understand. Sorry for the confusion!
tal, teen, moish, yep as far as I know there’s no way to prove the torah was given to us or no way to prove that Hashem is still running the world. B’h I guess that I just “blindly” believe now!!
If there is a way to prove it I’d luv to hear it!!
And about me sounding like a christain, lol no way I guess I just got spiritual lately!!! But seriously I dont get how you could even make that comparison between lehavdil a human flesh and blood “savior” to the Master of the world. Maybe I’m just naive in my belief but judging from thread I think it’s a good thing
we’re not comparing the religions. we’re saying that in christianity whenever they don’t have an answer they say “have faith.” i never EVER heard a rabbi say “have faith” as an answer. judaism is supposed to be about answers, not just blind faith. i don’t think it’s a higher level to be so simple and not to understand why you’re doing what you’re doing. what’s wrong with understanding? ok, maybe there are some things like para aduma and shiluach hakan that are chukim. but as a general rule, that’s not the approach we’re supposed to have.
that’s how i feel, anyway.
nice, feivel. any more creatures of interest on your mind? i’m waiting for the next one.
feivel very well said—as i mentioned in a earlier post Judaism is the only religion on record that believes people besides Jews can merit a place in Olam Haba…a lot of depth there.
feivel: that was great.$
good luck with the computer.$
this is kinda off topic, but since feivel is such a chashuva member i hope the moderators (i think it’s 72 at the current moment) will let it through…
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Read Rabbi Avigdor Millers books: Rejoice O Youth and Awake My Glory. He addresses the issues in much more depth and you will find what you are looking for in there.
Was appalled when i first saw the title of this thread. It’s bothers me every time I see it. The intentions may have been ok, but the word cunning has horribly negative connotations. Especially to describe Hashem’s brilliant designs in creation….
Merriam-Webster.com =
1 : dexterous or crafty in the use of special resources (as skill or knowledge) or in attaining an end
3 : characterized by wiliness and trickery <cunning schemes>
feivel, nice!!
Feivel that was nice. Liked that alot.
Thank moish for the support. I think the rare times I post because I don’t have the time some pple don’t like it much.
For every person there exists a reason you believe in Hashem hopefully based on knowledge and logic. For everyone, the reason is different. The briah provides fact and you provide thought; this is the first step to ‘knowing’ Hashem according to the Rambam among others. With a proper investigation, you will understand there is a God who is the controller, the basis of torah. Then, you need to turn your logic into something concrete, accomplished through learning/a furthering of your understanding/building on the original thought. (Then, you can have emunah the part where we are loyal, faithful.) The end result is you “see the genes” rather than the “expression.” For one that sees the genes, there in no suprise as to the expression, such as “nature”. (my ravs words) Estakel biorisa oobarah almah-I looked into the Torah and created the world. The Torah determines the expression of the world which only becomes obvious through study.
Anyone with intelect is obligated to determine truth for himself/prove to himself. Anyone who thinks that there is room for doubt for anyone does not believe strongly enough because, then, they believe doubt is possible despite being complete truth. illogical, incomplete thought. The only reason there are people who do not accept torah is they aren’t involved in an all encompensing life search only for the truth and for nothing else or they are still in the ‘process’ or they simply don’t like the obligations that come with it. We are obligated to faccilitate those who are searching because they are looking for truth and we have it. (We are not sensative because its the ‘nice thing to do’-although it is- the reason is the torah said to.)
I think the rare times I post because I don’t have the time some pple don’t like it much.
We like your opinions Tal, even if we don’t agree. Its always good to get a different perspective.
I disagree with you here – there is a limit to how you can prove Torah. There is always a way to poke a hole somewhere. I don’t think this means I don’t believe enough, I think this means that there are ways to twist truth to allow for doubt. I don’t doubt Hashem or the Torah, but others do. I’m going to try the books recommended by Kiruvwife and then maybe my opinion will change. But for now, it is what it is.
We do agree with tal’s posts.
sjs-keep us updated on how you liked the books!
We do agree with tal’s posts.
I didnt say that everyone disagrees with every post Tal writes. I said even if…so some posts some of us will disagree and some posts some of us will agree.
feivel, WOW! Congrats!!!
feivel: congratulations, that’s great.$
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