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You also dont feel Shabbos OOT
It is very different living in a place where Shabbos is Saturday and a place where everything is closed and everyone is walking in their shabbos finery
“It is very different living in a place where Shabbos is Saturday and a place where everything is closed and everyone is walking in their shabbos finery”
I dont know where you are living? certainly not NYC. While many stores on main st are closed, there are plenty of cars and non-Jews blasting music and doing and wearing all sorts of non-shabbosdikeh things.
Not only that, but walking on shabbos in a small town is so much more personal than walking in NYC. In NYC, you just see the other person walking in their shabbos “finery” and move on, maybe say good shabbos. In a small town everyone pays more attention to each-other and generally act nicer in my opinion.
Its cheaper, less traffic, easy parking, less noise, more intimate community, less crime. But its true, you cant get kosher pizza and sushi delivered at 12am- something many people have evolved to live without.
Thank you CT.
I appreciate your kind note.
(even if it turns out that you really are a figment of your own imagination)
I have been in both kinds of locations OOT and in town, and OOT (OOT as a place where Shabbos is Saturday.. Some part of NY area feel like OOT, 1 or 2 shuls and no pizza stores) and while people who go to shul know each other, they lived further apart and once you walked a few blocks from the shul you didnt see shabbos anymore and it was Saturday
newbee: There are neighborhoods in NYC/Monsey/Lakewood where you can usually walk in the streets on Shabbos for miles without seeing any cars driving.
And living OOT generally incurs higher expenses in commuting, tuition, kosher, Judaica, Jewish-specific clothing and lower salaries.
“once you walked a few blocks from the shul you didnt see shabbos anymore and it was Saturday”
What does that mean? There are always people driving wherever you are. In the city, you are more likely to hear loud music and honking cars as soon as you walk out of shule.
Whats the benefit? That you get the privilege of walking past people you barely know or talk to who also happen to keep shabbos on your 5 min walk home from shule?
That personally does nothing for me. I rather have a quiet walk home on a small street while sharing half of the walk with a dear friend.
Yea? Where? What neighborhoods exists in the US where you can walk miles without seeing cars driving?
You dont pay commuting expenses if you dont have to commute to the city in the first place. You can do your Judaica shopping once a month or twice a year in the city or online. Kosher food can be very expensive in the kosher supermarkets and places like costco are often far cheaper.
Learn to cook.
newbee
Fire island, NY
Mackinac island, MI
Interesting fact to note: All OOT measure their distance from the “inland”; twenty minutes from Brookly, one hour away, etc.
(me too, I’m just east of ‘YiddishKite’)
All?
newbee: Boro Park (as defined by its frum boundaries) consists of miles of walking, often you will not see a car driving in sight on Shabbos. Whether you have to have it shipped or are otherwise restricted to more limited choices in the competitive marketplace, the net result is higher OOT costs for kosher, Judaica and Jewish clothing. Costco doesn’t sell the least expensive Glatt Kosher, Cholov Yisroel, kosher bakery goods, etc., assuming they carry a single brand of those at all. If one limits themselves to positions outside the city, where salaries on average are much higher than positions on Main Street, they’ll have lower commuting expenses alongside lower average compensation.
OOT also mostly lacks Hatzolah, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Bikur Cholim, multitudes of gemachs, medical and tzedaka orgs, multitudes of rabbonim, rebbes and tzadikim, multitudes of yeshivos and butei medrashim, minyanim, shiurim at all times, subjects and levels, etc.
Ive seen people drive on Shabbos in lakewood, Not everyone is jewish there
I saw a pool party going on there one shabbos , near to a Shul
Do Mods actually lower themselves to take part of our mundane, temporal, menial convos?!?
Joseph, ok so if Hatzolah, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Bikur Cholim, multitudes of gemachs, medical and tzedaka orgs, multitudes of rabbonim, rebbes and tzadikim, multitudes of yeshivos and butei medrashim, minyanim, shiurim at all times, subjects and levels is worth dealing with the quadruple rent, parking tickets, traffic, lines, crowds upon crowds everywhere you turn, noise, music, pollution, losing the intimacy of a small town, living in a concrete jungle is worth it to you by all means stay in Brooklyn.
I would never go back to living in Brooklyn.
All I can say is that the people I come across on a daily basis in small towns are generally far more happy than those living in the city, especially BTs they tend to be happier and fit in better in small towns.
I think CTLAWYER said it right being 90 min away is the best of both worlds, though many people wont be able to find that mix and might have to settle for further out .
newbee: It all depends on one’s personal perspective of what they’d rather seek as their goal: a higher level of spiritual comfort (rabbonim, rebbes , tzadikim, yeshivos, butei medrashim, minyanim, shiurim, tzedaka orgs, chesed orgs, etc.) or a higher level of physical comfort (bigger house, greener space, etc.)
And considering the tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of former OOTers who now – by choice – live in the NY area, we know what their answer is.
Oh, and by the way, the last time I was in Brooklyn the chicken prices at the kosher grocery costed about 4.50 per pound.
For the same cut of chicken at Costco I get it for about $1.60 a pound.
So interesting. My mom grew up in Monsey when it was actually out of town, and now she’s raising kids in a practically in-town place. She much preferred it the way it was- there may be more and nicer restaurants and grocery stores now, but then it was more chilled, more of a congruous community, and less machlokes than there is now.
I can’t disagree with your generalization more. I know people people who spent decades going nowhere in ruchnius in NYC and never got into anything and when they moved to a small town they had more access to the rov and more involved in their shule and grew spiritually by leaps and bounds. This is especially true for BTs.
Also for the children of the rov and the more frum people of a small town, they play more of a role and grow in ruchnius where in Brooklyn they disappear into the background.
Just logged in, and began reading the comments about OOT. I was scratching my head trying to figure out what the acronym means. I thought it a label for a community that is Out Of Touch. To me, that would refer much more closely to Lakewood, Brooklyn, Monsey, and other concentrations of the Frum world. But it seems that it does not refer to that.
Pulling my tongue back out my cheek, there are clearly advantages and disadvantages in communities that are OOT or in the T. It should be the option for the individual to evaluate and make choices. Appealing to elders for their input is often a wise idea to assist in the process of making a potentially long term decision that affects so much.
Having lived in both places, there is much to say for the community out of town that is diluted to nearly nothing in the concentrated shtetlach. There is more attention to the things that really matter, instead of the trends to do what appears similar to others. Money isn’t everything, but in the in-town communities, the only way to finish that sentence is to add, “But it sure beats whatever is in second place.”
The ready access to the full range of products and services that in-towners come to depend on is a clear advantage to these communities. Being in closer proximity to so many friends and relatives has significant value.
These are individual decisions.
Joe -“newbee: It all depends on one’s personal perspective of what they’d rather seek as their goal: a higher level of spiritual comfort (rabbonim, rebbes , tzadikim, yeshivos, butei medrashim, minyanim, shiurim, tzedaka orgs, chesed orgs, etc.”
The implication is false! I know people who lived OOT and became or were Frum, but eventually these same people became Frey living in Lakewood.
“And considering the tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of former OOTers who now – by choice – live in the NY area, we know what their answer is.”
This is false people are made to believe that they have to live in the NY metro area for schools and for shidduchim and they move here out of need not preference its like if theres a lot of small grocery stores and one humongous one people will say well you have to go to big shmuliks they have everything! and if you dont go people will brand you as a small timer so to fit in or just because your led to believe you cant live without 300 types of hummus you go but that does not mean you are happier there.
But btw the sriracha green onion fennel hummus is to die for!
I feel bad for the people who move to places like Brooklyn and Queens for the kosher food. You can rent an entire house for the same amount of money as many of the small apartments there and not have to worry about parking, imagine that.
Learn to cook, learn to cook, marry someone who knows how to cook…..
Plus- in Brooklyn you don’t even get a eiruv.
“but eventually these same people became Frey living in Lakewood.”
I have seen it many a time. Where people were not really frum in NYC (because they were basically ignored there Im guessing) and become frum in a small town.
It’s too bad Reb Moshe, Reb Yaakov, Rav Hutner, Rav Pam, Rav Berenbaum, Rav Kalmanovitz, Rav Henkin, the Satmar Rebbe, the Bluzhever Rebbe, the Bobover Rebbe, the Novominsker Rebbe, the Skulener Rebbe, the Mattersdorfer Rov, the Viener Rov, the Debrecener Rov, Reb Shraga Feivel, Rav Gedalia Schorr, Rav Heiman, Rav Aharon Kotler and countless other gedolei yisroel zt’l (and shlita) weren’t around in newbee’s time so he could wisely dissuade them from foolishly living in town instead of wisely moving out of town.
Joseph…………..
not for argument’s sake, but as a point of observation. Look at your list and see how many of these were first generation immigrants who settled in NYC and never moved on. Not an unusual thing.
My great-great grandfather landed in NYC in 1868 with his wife and 5 of his children. He was horrified when my great grandmother and her husband moved out of town to Brooklyn (a separate city) in 1895, buying a house in Boro Park and raising a family there.
Joe there’s nothing wrong in feeling pride in your hometown but that does not mean that other people from other places don’t feel the same way about theirs, you sound like a typical NYer, being a NYer is like being a Yankees fan its way too easy its like being force fed chocolates but more does not equal better I am proud to be a Cubs fan yes they have not won it all in over a century but sometimes life is hard for some and when i was young that summer when the Cubs were especially awful (yeah i know there were a lot of those) and that other team in town was having a good year unlike my brothers i did not jump ship sometimes life is not about having it all its about appreciating what you do have.
**clap,clap**standing ovation**
CTL: The successors (who are all gedolei yisroel in their own rights) to virtually the entire list I mentioned continue to reside in-town today. In fact they all currently live in NYC except for the successor of Rav Aharon Kotler, who lived in Boro Park, now lives in Lakewood.
Joseph….
an anecdote…
Rav Henkin’s son lived and worked and raised his family in New Haven when I was growing up. He was the Director for the New Haven Bureau of Jewish Education. In the post WWII baby boom, out of town communities had such positions. He wrote the curriculum and many of the texts used by after school synagogue Hebrew Schools for all denominations. His wife had attended Hunter College with my mother in the early 1940s. She taught Hebrew School for years at the largest Conservative synagogue in the area.
Joseph, are you a Gadol Hador? Do you personally have a chavrusa in Brooklyn with a Gadol Hador?
If you have a congregation to lead to Brooklyn by all means stay there. If you have a direct connection with Rov Moshe and learn with him personally on a daily basis by some Brooklyn-olam haba connection, stay there. I think your personality would do better in a huge hareidi concentrated location in the tri-state area.
There are other people who would do better leaving Brooklyn and Queens for smaller towns. Sometimes there is pressure to be in those places and they dont even consider living anywhere else.
CTLAWYER, you should try out to be interviewed for one of those PBS Jewish History in America documentaries or that genealogy show.
newbee: I’ve spent time with numerous gedolim in the city, an opportunity that I would not have had nearly as often had I lived elsewhere.
Thats great you should stay in the city its worth it for you. Does every frum Jew who moves to Brooklyn benefit from this to the extent it outweighs the negatives or even at all?
Joseph, lets use the coffee room as an example. If you represent the typical mindset and behavior of chareidi Jews in concentrated tri-state areas, would it be best for other members of the coffee room to constantly live around you? What about the giyores we were talking about before would she do best in Lakewood being your neighbor? What about someone who has a limited income and has to pay rent for his family, would he do better in NYC or OOT.
Some places are better for different people. Dont give in to the pressure that you have to live in Brooklyn. You have to go to CUNY Brooklyn. You have to pay rent in Brooklyn or Lakewood so you can be the best Jew. I think that pressure is starting to fade more and more today.
There are plenty of jews who arrived in NY before 1900
Already by 1900 NY was the largest jewish city in the world
Thank you Moderator.
Personal request:
and I don’t care if you are in town, OOT, out of country, Misnagid, Litvish, Yeshivish, Republican or Democrat…..
Prayers for Mrs. CTL: Bina Chanah Bas Chayah Rochel. She was just admitted to ICU with complications from last week’s surgery.
Don’t know when I’ll be back in the CR
I will Daven for her CTL may she have a complete and speedy refuah shleimah.
“what’s the biggest (controversial) issues facing Frum Jews today”
Our willingness to compartment our religious life and to accept that compartmentization in others.
Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l never lived in Brooklyn. Admittedly, the compartmenting frum did try to run him out of Boston. 🙁
” in Brooklyn you don’t even get a eiruv”
Currently there are eiruvim Williamsburg, Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope, Prospect Heights, Borough Park, Marine Park, Manhattan Beach, and two overlapping eiruvim in Flatbush (one Sefardic and one Ashkenazic).
“There are plenty of jews who arrived in NY before 1900”
There were Jews in NY before 1700!
” you sound like a typical NYer”
But Ki me Brooklyn teitzei Torah….
Oh, wait a minute. 😉
“former OOTers who now – by choice – live in the NY area”
I only moved to NY because I got a job here. It was never on my radar screen nor something I desired.
Rochester and Scranton have yeshivot. So to Waterbury, Memphis, and Cleveland, just to give some other examples. No excuse.
Here are the latest unemployment rates for those areas:
Memphis 4.7%
Rochester 4.9%
Cleveland 5.5%
Scranton 6.4%
Waterbury 7.7%
Charlie, how many Wall Street paygrade jobs are there in Memphis and Rochester?
In NY most employers are somewhat aware of some basic jewish laws and customs like leaving early on Fridays in the winter and all the jewish holidays (Succoth and Shavouth) however out of town they are not. Go to employers in Cleveland and ask them about Shavouth and many will look at you funny.
When you try to leave early on Friday or take off for Shmini Atzert, it will be alot harder (Yes its Illegal to fire someone for leaving work early on Friday, but there are ways around it)
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