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What do you think should be done to stop the terrorism in Ramat Beis Shemesh?
:: grabbing the popcorn and sits back, waiting for the show to begin ::
The Wolf
One guy spitting someone is very wrong, but not terror. There is no excuse to spit, but it is a rare occurance. It happens more frequently in Tel Aviv than in Beit Shemesh. Don’t overreact or overdescribe.
In the U.S. and Israel spitting someone is generally a civil matter, not criminal. And if it is a crime, it is a misdemeanor that carries something akin to a fine or a number of hours of community service.
In Beit Shemesh there are about 30 thugs who just hang out outside this girls school just waiting to curse at (or worse) any females going in or out.
The police should put up barricades maybe 100 feet from the school and not let these bums get any closer than that.
Anyone that DOES do anything physical (like spitting, or worse) should be arrested and charged with assault.
GAW – I like PM Bibi’s idea -make two towns.
Definitely at the very least if they can’t dress Tzinusdik while bringing the kids to school, they should move the school!
I think there should be a big kiddush in a local park this shabbos, with all residents of the city required to attend. The ladies of the city on one side, the men on the other. Let the women swap recipes, stories about their children, stories about their latest excursions to the mall, doctor or shiur or whatever it is woman talk about, while the men talk about the parsha, the current daf or sing zemiros (maybe even kumbaya, but I dont want to push the envelope). Perhaps a drasha from some of the local Rabbonim on what “sheves achim gam yachad” means and how to achieve it.
How’s this:
Take the protesters and have them do a week’s worth of Army duty. Then, they will know whom to respect, and who the enemy is.
Shameful, but we created this warped system of allowing adults to be unaccountable for anything other than <edited>.
My take? They don’t respect their wifes / daughters / mothers either.
Like I said: shameful
Apushatayid,
You might as well just suggest that they stop doing it.
DY. I’ll bite. Doing what?
As long as Freedom of Speech remains a democratic right, anyone has the right to go in front of any school and protest using vile (prutza, etc.) language. The ACLU defending the KKK’s right to march in a predominantly Jewish suburb of Chicago in their white hoods. The courts upheld that as a right to free speech, whether we liked it or not.
There has been only one alleged physical action – the spitting. Fine the guy or give him community service or whatever the prescribed penalty for the misdemeanor of spitting is under the law. The “uproar” is entirely manafactured by the religious hating media and their enablers.
” And? “
And since they have no respect for women in general, they act out like this. If they could get away with it, they would talk / treat their own womenfolk the same way, but that would be biting the hand that feeds / cooks / shops for them, so they keep their tail between their legs like the cowards they are.
And shout at women in the street.
Trust me. Give them a week’s worth of meaningful work, and they will see the rest of the Israeli society in a different light.
“Unfair to the instructors”
Not to worry. Give Rafi and Noam (or perhaps Tamar and Dafna?) a week, and they will have these wayward children dancing to a new tune.
GAW -“Nur so gewinnen wir den Lebensraum, den wir brauchen. Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?”
Sorry I speak Yiddish, not German -translate.
It’s a famous quote from Hitler. Basically, it’s him justifying genocide for “living space.”
The Modern Orthodox should move out, as the Chareidim were there first. Oh wait….
10952- This isn’t the only alleged incident. As someone who has family living in BS, I know of many women who have had rocks thrown at their cars, bumped in the supermarket with the carts (even when pregnant) and other incidents. This is not a new problem and is much worse than spitting.
10952: You are incorrect. Freedom of speech does not extend to defamation and slander.
Any physical altercations should be duly penalized. But standing and verbally protesting is protected speech. (Except in dictatorships that do not have freedom of speech.)
That’s pashut not true. It depends on the manner and nature the protest. This one probably qualifies as defamation. There’s also no freedom of speech when there may be incitement to riot. Their protests are building up a enough of a frenzy to qualify for that as well (if the spitting is any indication).
Parenthetically, not every democratic country has “free speech” the way we know it. Many countries (not America) have passed legislation explicitly banning anti-Semitism.
The right to protest is the hallmark of any democracy. Hinder that, and you have an undemocratic state. Defamation is a civil matter between private parties and not a direct governmental concern. IOW, if someone is called a prutza, they have a right to sue the party and prove in court they aren’t a prutza. The government has no right or ability to preemptively prevent speech, even if potentially defamatory.
No, that’s not what democracy is all about. It’s also not true. There are democratic states other than the U.S. that don’t share our lenient views on free speech. And dictatorship is not defined as a state without free speech.
What you say about suing as a civil case is true, but irrelevant. My point is since such an instance of free speech is prosecutable, it cannot be protected. The particulars of the forum and mode of redress do not change this.
Also, it is not always treated as a tort. Many countries prosecute defamation as a criminal offense. Several states in the U.S. also have provisions making it a criminal offense.
apushatayid: The problem with your idea is that something similar has been tried and one side refused to allow there followers to attend anything with the word achdus in the name. I won’t say which side it was but it’s a religion founded on Jew-hatred and its name begins with a chet.
Sometimes it is important to allow such remarks to get through, so that we should know what we are dealing with. This poster apparently feels that being chareidi is “a religion founded on Jew-hatred.”
I don’t think I have anything in common with this poster. I don’t think we have a basis for discussion.
This attitude exactly sums up a large part of the problem. -Moderator 95
I think the Gedolim like Rav Elyshiv , Rav Kanivesky and the Chassdic Rebbes should go there and condem the violence without expection.
Such an instance of free speech is clearly not prosecutable and clearly is protected speech. This is clearly demonstrated by the mere fact that the protests have been occurring there every single day since September. Yet no one in nearly four months of five days a week protests has been arrested for merely being there protesting and calling them prutzas. That is because that is not an arrestable offense. It is protected speech and democratic protest. The chilonim would have loved nothing more than to arrest frum Jews otherwise. There is no law against it though. It’s called Democracy.
(The point about defamation being a civil, and not a criminal, matter was relevant to your mistaken notion that one can be arrested for defamation or libel. Parenthetically, in most democracies other than the U.K., the burden of proof to a claim of defamation lies with the allegedly defamed party and not with the accused.)
The fact that it is not being dealt with is not a logical proof that it is legal. Prove that it is not defamation, harassment, and incitement to riot, and you will prove it legal. Also, bear in mind that I am looking at this through the U.S. legal perspective (as I thought you were), so what is actually being done or not done has no bearing.
I would like you to reread my posts and cite the exact statement that led you to believe that I have a “mistaken notion that one can be arrested for defamation or libel.” And explain how the fact that it is only a civil wrong makes it “protected speech”. I am very confused as to why you keep trying to assert this.
M95: I have no defense for or response to a post such as Itche’s. It is terrible and shows nothing but Sinas Chinam. I hope he realizes that and finds a way to move forward with more and proper Ahavas Yisrael. The only thing I can hope is that the “Chet” stands for Chamas and not Chareidi. I would just like you to think about one thing and ask why. If such a post had gone through with the name of the group beginning with the letter “M”, not “Chet”, would it have been posted through with such a M’cho’o? If the answer is no, why not?
Absolutely. Even if it said starts with an R, or a C.
Thank you. That is very comforting for everyone. If only all of Klal Yisrael felt like you.
Apushatayid,
Terrorizing (sorry, I wasn’t trying to be vague).
10952,
Forget about secular law for a moment; what about ono’as devarim? There is a time and place for a proper machoah, but the actions we’re talking about don’t fit the bill.
DY: If you wish to discuss the halachic concerns, you have much bigger tainos on the other side of the dispute than ono’as devarim.
M95: I’m not sure if I’m correct at all, and it doesn’t make things much better, but I figured he was referring to Chassidim. Charedi’s weren’t founded, religious jews were always “charedi”. Chassidim on the other hand….
“R, or a C”
Red Sox and Cubs?
I think the Gedolim like Rav Elyshiv , Rav Kanivesky and the Chassdic Rebbes should go there and condem the violence without expection.
I like this idea. It will never happen, but it is a good idea
And thats part of the Problem.
Ive read many reports of the incidents , One thing that I do think is an issue is Charedi rabbis seem unable to stop the Sicarim. Charedi Followers who dont agree with them (Who might the majority) run scared. and unable to stop them
By they silence it seems they agree with them even if they dont
When Al Sharpton demonstrated in front of a Jewish business in the Bronx riling up the black masses about “white interlopers” and Jewish “diamond merchants”, he was charged with no crime. And that was despite the fact that his demagogery resulted with his mobs burning down that Jewish store and killing a person inside! The arsonist was arrested and charged while Sharpton was protected by free speech. This in no way justifies Sharpton ym’s, but does clearly demonstrate the legal rights of protesting and speech as recognized by the courts and the law.
The right to protest is a basic staple of any democracy. Even Putin in Russia recognizes this, as much as he doesn’t like the fact. And, yes, the fact that police have been at the site of daily protests in Beit Shemesh every day for months without arresting anyone for simply being there and calling the mothers prutzas, very much demonstrates its legality. The chilonim need little excuse to arrest chareidim, given even the slightest chance. Their police wouldn’t stand there every day witnessing something illegal for months and months and not arrest. They would love nothing more than to arrest chareidim if they could.
Rav Elyashev, Rav Kanievsky, the Chasidic Rebbes and the other Gedolim are many degrees smarter than any of us and don’t need our instructions as to whether or not they should condemn anyone. If they decided not to, then we know by virtue of them being far wiser and greater than any of us, that that is the correct decision.
+1 to Zahavasdad.
It is also possible that their “handlers” have not told them what is going on.
10952: “If they decided not to, then we know by virtue of them being far wiser and greater than any of us, that that is the correct decision. “
No. Wrong.
They may be more learned than any of us, but they are human and therefore capable of making mistakes. This is why there are different levels of courts/judges in Torah and Secular law. Perhaps they are making the decision that they deem to be the most appropriate, but that surely does not make it the “correct” decision.
Whats-in-a-name: And YOU will tell us when the greatest men of our generation are making a “mistake”? All of them collectively, no less?! YOU are less mistake-prone than the greatest gedolim??
10952: No one might be able to say for sure that they are making a mistake. Only someone on their level can claim that. But everyone has to be open to the possibility that they don’t fully understand/aren’t completely informed of this situation.
Whats_in_a_name and others, you are wrong! Even though mistakes were done by people in Bet Shemesh, there is a different problem. You and the like-minded do not know that there is such a thing in the Torah as opposing commiting aveiros. Learn more Torah! Do you approve of Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon ha’Kohen?
I have heard from more than one Rav that some Charedi Rabbis do not know how to get a message out. Their message might be clear to a follower of that particular Rav, but means something else to everyone else.
Someone might ask a Rav a Shaliah and the Rav will answer with a Posuk assuming the questionaire understands the answer.
Someone might ask a Rav a Shaliah and he will answer with a Riddle that a follower would totally get, but a not follower would not get.
A Rav might give a statement in a letter written weeks after event.
This is how things were classically done. I dont think some gedolim understand this system doesnt always work
Our final redemption has just been pushed back by this incident and the continuing of Jew on Jew hatred….
“And YOU will tell us when the greatest men of our generation are making a “mistake”? All of them collectively, no less?! YOU are less mistake-prone than the greatest gedolim?? “
Sorry if that was unclear. I was NOT calling the Gedolim wrong. I was saying one would be wrong to accept them as being infallible. As humans, they certainly are CAPABLE of making mistakes and/or failing to comprehend the full picture. (As am I of course).
“Do you approve of Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon ha’Kohen? “
Let me say this. I would certainly put more faith in Pinchas acting on behalf of the unified Jewish people then I do in a contemporary individual who represents one segment of the Jewish people. I believe there is absolutely no comparison between Pinchas and the spitter and to compare the two in my opinion is a real degradation to what Pinchas did.
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