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AZ, are you proud? My brother married a girl a year older than him (this year!) and they’re living happily ever after!
AZ: Incorrect. There is nowhere near consensus “that age gap is the most significant issue creating the shidduch crisis.”
The very elementary math you proposed is disputed. See the original ‘shidduch segulah’ thread. (Where you kept reposting the same talking points in response.)
Mepal: Kol Hakavood! Please show them the letter from the Roshei Yeshiva (reprinted a couple of posts ago).
After reading the letters posted in the name of the gedolim, all you have done was prove my earlier point. All the gedolim have done was give a bracha to one who marries an “older single”. At no point do they:
1. Say that the age gap causes the crisis
2. Say the freezer is bad
3. Try to deter girls from getting married after Seminary
4. Try to prevent bochurim from going to Eretz Yisroel for 3rd year Beis Midrash
They gedolim said what they said, Please do not be a ventriloquist who puts words into these holy mouths that were never said.
proud tatty,
re: your points #1 an #3
1- The letter begins by speaking of the “shidduch issue that is plaguing our country”!!! and ends with a request to marry “older girls”.
3- It clearly recommends marrying “older girls”.
How much more does the letter have to do a “Rachel Bitcha Haktana”?
Who what when and where is being the ventriloquist here??
Just the opposite. Sounds to me like s/o is muzzling
1. To put a muzzle on (an animal).
2. To restrain from expression: tried to muzzle the opposition.)
and muffling
1. To wrap or pad in order to deaden the sound: muffled the drums.
2. To deaden (a sound): The sand muffled the hoofbeats
the Gedolim’s words, r”l.
Proud Tatty is correct.
1. The Gedolim obviously acknowledged there is a shidduch crisis. This is obvious to anyone who can see. There are too many older singles. The Gedolim did NOT say the shidduch crisis is the age gap. They said there is a crisis. And if you marry “older” girls you help alleviate the crisis. This is obvious and common sense, as well as nothing to do with the age gap.
3. The Gedolim did NOT say girls should wait to be older to get married. The Gedolim praised a bochor who marries an “older” girl who already is in that matzif, as that will alleviate the crisis.
And like proud tatty said, the Gedolim nowhere said the freezer is bad or to prevent bochurim from going to Eretz Yisroel for 3rd year Beis Midrash. So lets not put words in their mouths; including claiming so-called “off the record” conversations.
I can’t believe I’m even going to dignify your statement with a response
Even if I grant you #1 (which I wont) these gedolim NEVER told ANY girl to get married later. By taking the words which they DID say (a bracha for one who marries an older girl) and twist them into things which they did not say (getting boys to date ealier and girls to date later) is a crime against these gedolim.
These are people who choose their words very carefully, they say what they say and they don’t say what they don’t say.
Spare me the “Rachel Bitcha Haktana”, and no, I’m not muzzling them, I value them enough to pay careful attention to what they say, you’d be wise to do the same
Just so you know who you are speaking with.
I married the 1st girl who was reht to me. It was a shidduch. And she is a year older than me. and the NASI project had no bearing on the shidduch
re:#3. Try to deter girls from getting married after Seminary…
I believe I’ve read more than once in this thread where AZ encourages Shadchanim to focus on the older girls!!!! I don’t recall him suggesting to disallow younger girls from getting married when they please.
proud tatty: i may not be one to interfere but aren’t you being a little too aggressive here? (sorry if i am misunderstanding you)
To Yossiz: I don’t think Proud Tatty is overreacting and if I were techno savvy enough I would have done the same, if you’re referring to posting those links. Here and other places (B”H my filters don’t allow me to go to anything that has “blog” in its link, so I haven’t seen too many) people have been saying stuff like, let’s discourage the girls from marrying young, feed them a tell it like it is sandwich of marriage not being a fairy tale, it’s a lot of hard work, get yourself situated with a career (YES, they use the word career, not job, or fulfilling job, which would be ok), etc. as a means of delaying shidduchim for girls.
NO ONE is doing this for the boys. Yes, I know, they have urges so the rules are different as far as marrying them off. (And, olam, please don’t quote Pirkei Avos and 18 because who waits that long for mishna these days?) But NO ONE is preparing the boys for all the responsibilities of marriage. Middos development, vaadim, etc. is invaluable, and B”H for that. But if people were talking to the boys like they’re proposing talking to the girls, you would see a lot of boys scared sufficiently to be able to wait themselves.
tzippi, as far as preparedness for marriage with “careers”, I wish I’d have some money for every girl I know who married young and naive and wishes she would have completed her career before marriage. Pleasing schoool, work, house, social obligations, kids, and husbands requirements and needs ain’t no fun, all at the same time as paying bills, even with parental help.
We all know that once the girls have careers, more often than not, they earn for a few hours what their uneducated peers earn a week.
PT: Chaverim: Tzippi:
“and encourage bochurim to marry those who are close to their age (and even older)”
Clearly the letter encourages close in age not only older.
Now assuming the signers of the letters aren’t dumb. The only reason to write so would be to alleviate the age gap problem.
If the issue is money looks etc. they would encourage boys to marry girls lacking those qualities what would marrying close is age help if not that they recognize that as the problem (which I know they do)
Furthermore, One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientis to figure out that if more boys marry close in age then fewer 19 yr old girls will be getting married.
If you want to know how I’m so up on the letter it’s because I spoke to Rav Aharon Feldman after he returned from meeting w/ Rav Elyashiv.
PT: the two links you sent.
#1 reffers to shadchanim
#2 in a general sense boys a bit earlier and girls a bit later is the only way to go.
I Have NEVER posted advice to girls or their families to discourage dating when they want. However we as a community should (and need to) facilitate more close in age shidduchim (as per the letter of the roshei yeshivos) and thus not look to run to redd shidduchim to 19 yr old.
Have a misrepresented the letter??
Tzippi, don’t you know that men are no longer bound by their ketubah? They are no longer required to support their family! That is what a wife and in-laws are for.
Now assuming the signers of the letters aren’t dumb. The only reason to write so would be to alleviate the age gap problem.
Actually, all it means is that they are currently encouraging the older men to date the single, older women. It says nothing to the age gap factor – just that there is currently a glut of older single women.
Also, you never answered my post about the mathematics of the age gap. Please review and respond.
tzippi, you are not correct in your constant blaming men for not being prepared for marriage whilst crediting women as the mature parties. In fact, divorces in the community tend to be initiated by women. I would strongly argue in fact quite the opposite. I would say the men tend to come into marriage more prepared than the women.
Azoiis, what about the money for every young man who is leaving kollel after several years having to NOW get extensive training, after which he’ll start at entry level, and who has 3 or 4 kids and is starting to face tuition, and whose wife, who was told become an xyz because then you’ll be able to work part time, is now either
– not able to find part time work
– unable to switch to part time because they need the money, as much as
– unable to work due to high risk pregnancy
– finding taking care of a special needs child a full time job
– fill in the blanks.
These guys feel frustrated, and deeply feel, because this is how Hashem wired them, a failure for not being able to take care of their families properly. But no one told them they ever would have to.
To chaverim: your post came through just as I was hitting send for mine. Please tell me exactly what preparation boys get, and if this is coming through families, yeshivos, on an individual basis or if the roshei yeshivos are going on record saying this in public shmoozing.
chaverim, Mrs. tzippi:
You are confusing “prepared” & Mature. Boys may be “mature”, but can not support a family. The opposite may be true of the girls, who still have the ideals stuck in their heads by Sem & are not ready for a “real” person.
tzippi, as least as much preparation as the girls.
gavra, I am compelled to take great exception to your constant put-downs of girls seminary. The ideals taught to them are set and instructed by our g’dolim, not laymen. Hence any criticism of this system is a direct criticism of the g’dolim who set it. I would accept their judgment a lot quicker than our own. And this point applies to seminaries teaching
gavra, I am compelled to take great exception to your constant put-downs of girls seminaries. The ideals taught to them are set and instructed by our g’dolim, not laymen. Hence any criticism of this system is a direct criticism of the g’dolim who set it. I would accept their judgment a lot quicker than our own. And this point applies to seminaries teaching our girls to highly value Torah learners, be it full-time, part-time or whatever the seminaries per the g’dolim idealize.
chaverim – i’d love to know which Gedolim you are reffering to who support what’s being taught in these seminaries. Forget the 20 grand that the parents have to shell out in today’s tough economy. That’s for another thread. My experience with teachers from seminaries has been less than wonderful. I think that most of what’s being taught there would shock most Gedolim!
chaverim:
Prove it. It’s my opinion (of couse you are free to argue) that our Gedolim are not aware of the preperation and “when you marry a kollel boy” that goes on in the Sems. That is a “modernish” idea which I doubt has been discussed with most, if any, of our “gedolim”, who whould probably say they should not be learning Navi in depth as is (ref. to the R’ Chaim & baking story), let alone being pushed into going into the outside world to support their husbands (against “Kol Kavod Bas Melech Pinemah”).
And yes, there is a very big difference between “Machshiv Torah” & “when you marry a kollel boy”.
Cirriculum & ideals are similar in both “when you marry a kollel boy” sems & not (BTW, I would place BJJ in the second catagory). I have nothing against those Sems who really teach a girl to be a bas yisroel (besides for the price & the “supposed need” to go for shidduchim). I’ve just seen too many that are either:
1: there only to push Kollel
2: there so that a girl can say “I went to sem in EY” for shidduchim purposes.
Of course, there are exceptions, (such as BJJ, Michlalah, what I hear about Yavneh, etc.) and most of my comments do not apply to those Sems.
Of course (to get back on track), the need to marry a kollel boy & support tilts the scale heavily towards those girls whose tatties (meor pun) can pay for it. Even AZ agrees that if older girls had additional support they would be considered more over younger girls with none.
tzippi:
re:These guys feel frustrated, and deeply feel, because this is how Hashem wired them, a failure for not being able to take care of their families properly. But no one told them they ever would have to.
Males who grew up in two parent households, by and large, saw firsthand- “B’Zayas Apecha Tochal Lechem”. All boys see their fathers providing Parnasa, by the time these boys reach their twenties, and most of them way, way, sooner.
I wholeheartedly agree though that those adjustment years from the time they leave learning until they make money, are often miserable. That’s why it doesn’t hurt to have an educated wife!
GAW, there’s an unfair dichotomy, based on your chiluk. The girls have to be prepared and mature. The boys simply have to be mature.
And to Chaverim, I am still wondering what the specific preparation is.
Also, in my time in sem, close to 30 years ago being machshiv Torah and facilitating our husband’s learning was stressed to, but there was an understanding that it would be full, part time, etc. Many of the seminaries now won’t posit a serious ben Torah who is seriously koveiah itim (because we know that ben Torah is not limited just to those who learn full time right, or is that another thread) as a legitimate option.
SJSinNYC: Pls read the letter
“encourage bochurim to marry those who are close to their age (and even older)”.
Clearly the main thrust is close to the age gap. The boys by and large are dating 22.5-25. We are not talking about marrying 30 yr old girls. Obviously marrying older has an even additonal benefit vis a vis the age gap.
Here’s and idea. Any one who doesn’t think that’s what the signers meant, please ask any one of them. (that are still b’chaim) I was involved as the the letter was being circulated. You can accuse me of being a liar or you can do your homework and see the truth.
Regarding the mathematics:
“I was wondering if amongst orthodox Jews the birth rate of girls may be higher.”
is this the mathematical point you would like be to respond to
or
“There could be a math mistake in my assumptions”
please make a clear supportable mathematical argument and we can debate. Pure conjecture with no basis ………
chaverim – I am compelled to take great exception to your taking great exception. The constant put-downs of girls seminaries is allowed. People have to realize that girls seminaries are not run by G’dolim. Never have been. They are run by well-meaning ladies, not G’dolim. Untill you can post a letter from even a single Gadol supporting girls seminaries – don’t say that they are run by G’dolim.
Seems like we have gotten a bit of topic here. (it’s not kavod to squeak who opened the thread)
SJSinNYC:
“encourage bochurim to marry those who are close to their age (and even older),”
clearly the emphasis is on marrying close in age. Obviously marrying 30 yr old girl helps that girls in particular (as well as the age gap in general), however that wasn’t the gist of the letter.
regarding you questions on the math. I didn’t see a specific question that debated either of the 2 basic pretty self evident premises.
1. Population Growth
2. Age when girs/boys start dating.
You suggested that there are more girls born the jewish community but that is not substationated by class sizes of girls schools vs. boys schools.
What other issues do you have with the 2 premises?
Mrs. tzippi:
Blame that one on those who allow the boys to get away without learning how to make a living or a budget. My Rabbonim & the Roshei Yeshiva in my area (as well as puny me) disagree with those and say the boys SHOULD learn how to run & support a family. I just note the way it is.
Welcome cholentkugelkishke; With a name like that, no wonder you have yummy delicious ideas 🙂
Seems like we have gotten a bit of topic here. (it’s not kavod to squeak who opened the thread)
SJSinNYC:
“encourage bochurim to marry those who are close to their age (and even older),”
clearly the emphasis is on marrying close in age. Obviously marrying 30 yr old girl helps that girls in particular (as well as the age gap in general), however that wasn’t the gist of the letter.
regarding you questions on the math. I didn’t see a specific question that debated either of the 2 basic pretty self evident premises.
1. Population Growth
2. Age when girs/boys start dating.
You suggested that there are more girls born the jewish community but that is not substationated by class sizes of girls schools vs. boys schools.
What other issues do you have with the 2 premises?
gaw, What “when you marry a kollel boy that goes on in the Sems”?? Such does not go on in sems. At least not as you seemingly portray it. The sems do not insist that all the girls must marry a kollel guy. That perception seems popular amongst those who seem to dislike kollel. In fact the sems value both kollel AND koveiah zman itim. Sems do not discourage marriage to young men who are koveiah zman itim. Sure there is a specialness to marrying someone who will learn in kollel, and the sems rightfully educate the girls that this (kollel) is something to highly value and esteem. But they also realize that it is not the right approach for all girls, and those should seek someone who will be koveiah zman itim.
To cholentkugelkishke: many are run by well meaning men. And many of the ads I’ve seen show rabbinic advisory boards.
“Tzippi, don’t you know that men are no longer bound by their ketubah? They are no longer required to support their family! That is what a wife and in-laws are for.”
Yeshiva and seminary are luxuries. We already have enough parasites with improper chinuch living off the US government in Lakewood. Is this what we are trying to create in eretz yisroel? Do you think Avraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, or Yoseph Hatzaddik sat in kollel or beis medrash sipping on instant coffee with extra sugar shmoozing between chavrusas? Wow did you hear that pshat in tosefos? Shkoyach, get a job, before you get cut off! Everyone wants a free lunch these days. I would love to sit in kollel for the rest of my life while someone else pays for it. The ultimate free lunch. Maybe someone else can pay for my housing, my kids’ educations, insurance, car, etc.
I respect bnai yisroel that learn torah im derech eretz. We all know those responsible people that are professionals, that have been through shas, shulchan aruch, and are talmidei chachamim b’emes. We should be encouraging shidduch’im between men and women that will grow into adults not parasites. You can’t live off Mom, Dad, in-laws and Uncle Sam all your life. Well, I guess you can, but keep your kids away from mine.
It seems another modern day problem is that the most educated of yidden are ba’alei teshuva. Those of us with what is seen as a preferable yichus are steps behind in education. Everyone has different priorities in life. If you want to give me a shita from the Chafetz Chaim justifying learning in kollel for 10 years on welfare and medicaid, fine, keep your kids away from mine.
What is p’shat? Do not marry off babies. A 19 or 20 year old girl raised in America is a diaspora baby. A 22-24 year old bucher raised in America is also a diaspora baby.
There are enough parasites in Lakewood. We do not need more.
BenTorahJew: Your name is a misnomer. With a comment like that I suggest you seek a site more in tune with your anti Torah attitude.
Calling Yeshiva a “luxury” and calling Bnei Torah “parasites” is a disgrace to G-d for which you ought to repent before it is too late.
Az-ois: I forwarded your request to NASI regarding reprinting the letter from the Roshei Yeshivos, and bl’n the kol korein from last will appear in this weeks edition. They told me the reason they don’t print it more often is simply a matter of $$$. Each time they put it in it costs hundreds of dollars. Anyone in the CR want to sponsor 🙂
chaverim:
I will not name the sems, but many of those that my (girl) relatives have gone to have reported back this concept of “breaking down the psychic integrity” of the girls by continuous exposure to the statement “when you marry a kollel boy”.
The point is the “when”, not the “if”.
I will not discuss this on this thread further, except to point out you have not proved any gadol agrees to Sem. If you want, start a new thread.
Getting back to the point;
AZ: the age gap is one of many reasons why there are older girl singles; it may even be the largest one, but by no means is it the only one. Even if the age gap were to be eliminated, the problem would still exist.
AZ, I’m not sure I can even continue debating with you. You constantly take something out of context and then don’t respond to statements. Let me try one more time.
1) I did NOT say that there ARE more girls born than boys. It was a question, seperate from the math I quoted. Since Asians have a higher boy to girl ratio than the general population, it means some portion of the population has to have a higher girl to boy ratio to bring the ratio back to the overall population boy/girl ratio.
2) I did not see anywhere in the Avi Chai study about number of boys vs number of girls in Jewish Day Schools. If there is another study stating that they are equal in number, please point me to it.
3) My math dealt with an even split of boys to girls (100 vs 100). This is because while more caucasian BOYS are born every year, by the age of 20 or so, the boy/girl ratio evens out to 1:1. Therefore, assuming Jews are following the general caucasian trend, there are approximately an even number of boys and girls at age 20.
I don’t know if you took the time to read the math (to which my statement of there could be a math mistake was aimed), you would see that I was saying the age gap problem would be GREATER than you are saying, in which case, the problem will be exacerbated exponentially in a few years unless women and men marry at ages far apart (with women being 5-10 years older).
Chaverim, it has been my experience that seminaries teach that kollel is *the* way to go, and if you can’t do that its *ok* to settle for someone who learns b’koveiah itim. Its shown more as a failure than a great way of life.
I also think you are being harsh on BTJ. It wasn’t worded particularly nice, but Yeshiva is a luxury. If its between feeding your family (and learning at night) or sitting and learning all day but having starving children, what do you choose? I choose to feed my family.
BenTorahJew – I am appaled to read such language from someone who calls himself a Jew, let alone a Ben Torah. Please take your uncalled for opinions elsewhere. We don’t have to read such anti-semetic words. To call a fellow Yid – whether you agree or disagree with the – names that you did, is disgusting. There’s no excuse for it & it is just sick!!!
SJS: Parasite is taboo for any Jew. Period. It’s out of line.
gaw, I disagree with you (strongly) regarding the sems. I believe the girls who relayed that to you suffered from a perception issue. Perhaps they have a dislike for kollel, so any promotion of the kollel life they took exception to.
I strongly believe it correct and appropriate for sems to promote the kollel life; and this is without excluding other possibilities.
GAW, I agree he didn’t word his statement well. It was uneccesarily harsh and rude. But not necessarily anti-Torah, which I think was a much harsher statement than needed in response. Just MHO though.
I hear the emotionally charged and hurtful words of BenTorahJew, and suspect that he or close family members of his must have been hurt by the money/support situation linked to Yeshivish Shidduchim.
I feel that the money/support issue IS linked to the Shidduch Crisis in some way, because learning boys who need support, are forced to look among younger girls for Shidduchim (the young rich girls get grabbed up quickest, forcing the boys to look among the newer crop of rich girls), needing a Shver most able to support for the number of years the Bochur desires to learn.
I don’t think anyone here hasn’t heard of cases where the boys’ Roshei Yeshiva tell the boys to marry the girl whose father can support the longest, enabling their Talmidim to learn the longest. While there are some, I’ve heard of much less Roshei Yeshiva who encourage boys to look for girls who are very Mistapek b’Muat or from very Yeshivish homes.
Something to think about!
I believe the girls who relayed that to you suffered from a perception issue
Chaverim, it may be a perception issue, but that means the seminary may be consiously or unconsiously pushing Kollel to the point where the girls feel like its their only choice. Perception is reality with these kinds of things.
AZ, your post reminds me of an anecdote about a gadol whose son became engaged. The gadol boasted of his future daughter-in-law’s large dowry, so people were surprised when they realized her family was quite poor and asked how her family was able to provide such a dowry. The gadol replied, “She is such a fine girl, and satisfied with so little, that my son will not need a lot of money to support her and will be able to learn for a long time.”
SJS, in many Asian countries (not just China) the male:female birth ratio is kept artificially high through terminations, because sons are much more valued than daughters. To some extent this is true in the US as well, and may be skewing birth ratios in some populations. B”H that is not the case in the frum population.
AZOI.IS:
Very well said. Its still not an excuse, but it is a reason.
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SJS: No, the perception issue is on the part of those select girls who came to that incorrect conclusion. It is not suffered by all, most, or even a large part of girls in seminary. The blame for such perception does not go on the shoulders of the seminary, but rather on those select people who elect to view the matter with a skew.
Chaverim, the other girls don’t have that perception because they marry kollel boys.
OK that was a little snarky 🙂
Usually, there is a reason for a subset of people to have a certain perception. Could it be their prejudice? Maybe, but generally people attend seminaries that are hashkafically on a similiar page as themselves. So, marrying a man who learns (full time or not) would be extremely important to them anyway. So, by the teachers preaching a little harder for kollel, they may be getting the perception that thats the only way to go and anything else is a failure.
I’m not placing the blame solely on seminaries – its just what I’ve seen/heard from conversations.
ON the money issue. The most effective way to solve the money issue is to alleviate the inequity of numbers. The money is a result of the shiduch crisis (simple law of supply and demand) NOT the cause. If the numbers were equal boys wouldn’t get away with asking/demanding $$$.
As it stands now even if we pushed a magic button and all girls had a million dollars in the bank we would still have the exact same crisis because there are just not enough pants for the skirts.
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