- This topic has 379 replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Dr. Pepper- that is true that many of them dont apply in the literal sense, but when girls are still living at home they are many times expected to take care of their little siblings, go to school (high school, college ect) and do well there, if not in school they many times work to put away for marriage or to help make ends meet, help cook for shabbos,…
those can be given grades.
Please dont misunderstand me. I know that there is the age gap, but I am tired of people saying there are “few good_____”.
_____________________________________________________________________________
An idea-
Girls are made responsible a lot earlier- when have you seen high school boys come home and babysit for their little siblings? Why cant the boys be given some responsibilities- it might mature them a bit.
Only difference is the pressure for a girl to be married at 21- 22 isn’t as great in those crowds, so it’s not that hard-hitting.”
I don’t know that I really agree with that statement. My girls, who are older than that, felt the pressure at 20 and 21, and they are NOT Beis Yaakov types. I would describe them as machmir modern or very modern yeshivish. They felt the pressure as soon as they left high school. Friends of theirs got married left and right in the next couple of years, and though they still have friends like themselves who have not yet been married, they have been feeling the pinch for all that time.
I don’t think a purpose is really served by castigating posters on this thread. The bottom line is one on which we ALL can agree – we want to see all our Jewish children happily married to their proper zivugim and building batim ne’emanim b’Yisroel. We may not agree on the best way to achieve that goal, or even the reasons for that goal not being easily met. But we can agree that it is a real problem today, and we would like to see it reach its conclusion ASAP.
Squeak, please clarify for us all what you’ve accomplished on this thread (other than criticizing and ridiculing with an assortment of fancy words and phrases thrown in).
Just curious, you wanted to be an attorney, right?
Squek I will gladly answer your questions. Pleae clarify if your issue is the basic facts or whether the proposed solutions are “following the herd” philosophy. I would like to know clearly which point to address.
To GAW: you say tuition is negligible compared to the chasuna. Not sure what you mean. Say you have a family that can barely afford a Bais Faiga type packaged deal chasuna, goes with one man band, gamach flowers, gown etc. Their kids may or may not be eligible for PELL, etc. (and their girls, who are in school, have to take out their own student loans as they will be capable of starting to pay them back once they finish school and start working). For these parents, as much as they want to help support their kids, they simply CAN’T. There are a lot of us out there.
Being that the thread is named AZ- I implore all partied to keep the personal insults OFF so we can stick to a mature debate and not get the thread closed.
PLEASE
Azoi.is: you’ve seriously undermined the whole premise of your theory. If MO who marry closer in age have the same surplus of girls, obviously the “age gap” is not the primary factor in the shidduch crisis.
AZ: if the age gap is THE cause for the shidduch crisis, why do you only propose a partial solution of narrowing it to 1.5 years and not eliminating it completely?
For these parents, as much as they want to help support their kids, they simply CAN’T. There are a lot of us out there.
I concur, I was one of those parents, and we JUST missed the eligibility cut off point for TAP and PELL grants. We would not play the financial games that other families of our same means played in order to be eligible and get those grants. It was always a struggle to make ends meet, and under no circumstances could I help support my married kids, except by what I am doing now and that is babysitting my granddaughter so they do not have to hire someone to do so. I have them over for a lot of meals, too, but that is my pleasure, and they are wonderful kids who appreciate every tiny thing we do for them as if it were a gevaltig BIG thing.
re:Azoi.is: you’ve seriously undermined the whole premise of your theory. If MO who marry closer in age have the same surplus of girls, obviously the “age gap” is not the primary factor in the shidduch crisis.
I have firsthand info from a Matchmaker on SYAS. Very rarely do couples marry close in age. Actually many girls marry guys 6 – 8 years older.
Asking girls to marry 2 years later is asking them to give up 10-15% or their fertile years. That’s a huge sacrifice to demand to statistically improve the odds of a small number of girls getting married. I can’t imagine which one of my kids I would be willing to give up even for the most worthy of causes.
squeak – I apologize if you feel that I have made some dangerous assumptions about your character. That wasn’t my intention & I hope you are moichel me if you feel slighted. My only intention is to ask that instead of attacking the Yeshiva system, perhaps try to help the thousands of suffering single girls.
It’s a very sad and scary picture out there and by trying to minimize it – you aren’t helping anyone.
Another factor that can’t be ignored is that under the current situation where there is a surplus of girls, many “less desirable” boys are getting married because they have a numerical advantage. If you level the playing field, you just might cancel out the girls getting married with the number of boys who will now find themselves “unmarriable” and end up with no net gain.
My point in these comments is that a single-minded quest for a solution that ignores the myriad consequences may open a Pandora’s Box that is even worse then our current problematic situation.
azoi.is: I’m not familiar with SYAS. Are they dealing with “standard situations” or only with those who have already “fallen through the gaps” and become “older singles”?
SJ posted on the first page “Lets look at the YU community – most of my friends married people within 2 years of their age”, and this is also my personal observation of the MO community in general.
Is the Star-K’s program to pay a bonus to shadchanim who redt a sucessful shidduch to older Baltimore girls still around?
re:Asking girls to marry 2 years later is asking them to give up 10-15% or their fertile years. That’s a huge sacrifice to demand to statistically improve the odds of a small number of girls getting married. I can’t imagine which one of my kids I would be willing to give up even for the most worthy of causes.
PM, they can still have a dozen or more babies if they get married at 23, for instance. How many pregnancies can the average woman’s body tolerate? Twelve seems a pretty nice and generous amount to me. How many families in Lakewood have more than a dozen kids? I’m quite sure not all of them got married at 19 or 20.
to Azoi.is: you guys from the land of AZ are awesome. Just when I thought my jaw couldn’t drop any lower you came up with this! Good night, y’all.
tzippi, my jaw is dropping as well when I read the suppositions offered by some naysayers here… of what might happen if the NASI project is seriously encouraged by people of importance and influence…..
I bet it hasn’t reached the top yet….I’m gearing up for ….Suppose as a result of closing the age gap someone will get an ingrown toenail…….
Ridiculous hypotheses lead to ridiculous responses.
It is unfortunate when people have no intelligent response and have to resort to insults.
There is a significant risk that closing the age gap could exacerbate the problem rather than alleviate it by narrowing the window of opportunity for the girls. Since most boys will not consider a girl older then themselves, a girl would find herself ruled out by the majority of the boys on the market after just 1.5 years in shidduchim under your proposal, instead of the current 4 years. Of course you can try to change the boy’s mindset, but this will take time and is not guaranteed.
This is another example of why the problem and its potential solutions need to be more carefully thought out before radical reforms are implemented.
I read through it (not as thoroughly as I would like), but there is something important to remember – its not the statistics that lie, its the statisticians.
For example, the study doesnt examine what percentage of boys/girls are born to Orthodox homes. What if the problem lies in the fact that our ratio is 1.10 girls to boys? In Chinese homes, where boys are more valued, they have a higher rate of boys born. Maybe we are just producing so many more girls than boys for whatever reason that there is NO WAY to keep up.
Also, the study gives a number of 6% going off the derech. That number sounds reasonable to me, and I would venture that its a ration of 5:1 boys vs girls leaving (as in my experience, boys leave the fold at a much higher rate than girls). Even with an even starting point, losing boys at a faster rate than girls means there is no way to catch up – ever.
And, this study neglects factors like people sending their kids to more religious institutions (as I’ve seen over the years). So, while a family might be on the MO side, they may not be happy with the MO school and send their kid to a slightly yeshivish school. This happened in my apartment building in Brooklyn – there were 4 people with kids looking into kindergarten. The options they were looking at were Shulamis, Prospect Park, Mesores, Lev Bais Yaakov and Bais Yaakov D’Rav Meir. The MO family wasn’t 100% happy with Shulamis because it has turned into a school mainly for the children of immigrants. They chose one of the other schools. When the other 3 families heard the kind of kid that got excepted to that school (and was going), they went to a different school. So, even though the family is not yeshivish in any way, they went to a more yeshivish school. This trend is also being seen in MO schools, where you do have a percentage of enrollment of non-religious students.
I have trouble believing that the population is growing at a rate of 3-4% a year. I understand that our generation is having more and more children, and looking over a span of 10 years you can see a difference, but 2 years? That doesn’t make mathematical sense to me.
PM, thank you for actually reading my posts! It really is appreciated 🙂
In my HS class, I would say about 80% married their spouses within a 2 year age range. Very few married anyone older than that, and it was 3-4 years if a lot. But, there were also people who married YOUNGER guys, which balanced it out.
I’ll put in another post on fertility because I am not 100% sure its YWN appropriate.
Fertility:
According to Dr. Bradley (Husband Coached Childbirth – its an awesome book), the ideal time for a woman to have a child (according to her body requirements) is AGE 14. Granted, that is not always feasible, but the longer you wait, the more potential fertility and medical issues there are.
Infertility is diagnosed after a year of a couple unsuccessfully trying to concieve. This is an important point to remember – whenever a couple gets married, its about a year before they can even start trying to fix a problem if they have one.
There are a few types of infertility – there is mikvah infertility – the process where following taharat hamishpacha causes a woman to be a niddah still on her most fertile days. This is one of the easiest types to fix.
Some fertility issues require surgery for either man or woman. This often takes a few more months to schedule surgery and recover.
Some fertility issues require medications.
Some fertility issues require in vitro fertilization. This is a HARD, long process. Women have to take a lot of uncomfortable shots and then have the problem of possibly becoming pregnant with the wrong child. Plus, its extremely expensive. The rate of success with IVF drops off a lot after AGE 25!
AZ thinks its ok to ask women to give up her most successful child bearing years for someone else.
AZOIS thinks its easy to have children.
PM, “Since most boys will not consider a girl older then themselves,”
I haven’t heard of anyone suggesting that boys go out with girls older. Only that they should not go out with girls much younger.
PM:
1. closing it to wihtin 1.5 years would be a tremendous accomplishment for starters. If we get there we could talk about going further.
2.SJ’s and your own personal observations aside: the people heavily involved in the Non Yeshivish shidduch scene readily acknowledge that typical marriages are with quite a significant age gap.
Squek:
I have absolutely no idea what kind of a high price you think it comes at. What devastating side effect are on the horizon for encouraging boys to be willing to date girls their own age or a couple months older?? I don’t quite understand why boys being willing to date close to their age constitutes “following the herd” or whatever that is supposed to mean. Pls clarify.
However, recognizing my own significant limitations, I have take n counsel with universally recognized leaders of our communities (such as Rav Shteinman shlita) and they too feel that it is 1000% smart and necessary to encourage close in age shidduchim. Should people such as he who understand the problem decide to change course and advise against encouraging close in age shidduchim, I will be the first to follow.
Regarding the Avi Chai Link I will have to figue out a way to get it to you. Perhaps contact the NASI Project, I’m sure they could get it to you.
What I’m suggesting isn’t radical and is hard to argue with. Just bring home the boys from E”Y six months younger. This will create hundreds of new dates & IY”H lead to many more marriages. It’s foolish to suggest that at 22.5, boys are less mature than at 23. For years, boys got married at 21-22. Then it became in style to stay in E”Y longer. If we go back to having the boys date just a bit – only 6 months – younger, will be helping so many.
It’s so simple…. Just bring home the boys from E”Y six months earlier & we’ll see many more Simchos IY”H!!
I believe people here are tired of seeing AZ/AZOIS repeating themselves and reposting the same comment to every question asked of them, ignoring all the important questions disputing the age gap farce.
I believe people here are tired of seeing AZ/AZOIS repeating themselves and reposting the same comment to every question asked of them, ignoring all the important questions disputing the age gap farce.
AZOI.IS: Actually, that (having boys go out with girls older than themselves) is the easiest suggestion, and the one that involves “freezer manipulation” (only allowing boys out to date girls older than them). Its also the simplest to implement, with the least amount of “adverse effects” or “interactions” (as the boys would not be dating then anyway).
Just like the Rabbonim push Kollel, they can push marrying older girls. As Oomis & others have pointed out, there are stong advantages to a couple looking to live a kollel lifestyle to marry someone who is already been working for a number of years.
PM: Perhaps the boys’ mothers (& themselves) would have a change of heart if there was a full page “Kol Korei” in the Yated, signed by everyone who signs all the bans, how they should have their children go out with older girls. I’m not saying it will always work (a relative of mine went out for 2 years with older girls, only to marry a younger girl who was suggested previously but put on hold), but the attempt should be made, especially if the boy would not be dating during that time either way.
SJS: you point to the “harder to be a good boy than a good girl” argument, which is logical. You have agood point with the fertility. Telling a girl to wait to get married is also unfair.
To Azoi.is: you ask who’s promoting young men going out with older young women. I’ll tell you who.
– The initiative, IIRC, give higher payouts when the young women are older.
– Rabbi Krohn, who has popularized the story of Rav Hirsch and his (older) wifel. RSRH is said to have said, “For what I need to accomplish, a little girl won’t do.” R. Krohn will tell you of people who heard this story, said yes to such shidduchim and are now happily married. I have no quarrel with this. EXCEPT: what are our young men looking to accomplish that they can’t marry a girl, other than be supported for a few years of learning with no idea of what they will accomplish after that.
re:It’s so simple…. Just bring home the boys from E”Y six months earlier & we’ll see many more Simchos IY”H!!
lkwdfellow, and what would you put into place to help those girls who are already 23, 24 and on?
AZ, I’m wondering who in the MO community you are talking to. Because for the last 10 years or so, most of the couples I know are within 2 years of each other. Many the same age.
A few reason:
1) A lot of couples start dating in high school. You generally date within your age range in high school (so 0-2 years, 3 at the most). Parents dont generally let their 16 year old date a 21 year old
2) A lot of couples date in YU. Most girls go to seminary and many even stay shana bet. Same with the boys. When they get back, they socialize with each other and are generally within 2 years.
Are there exceptions? Sure. Both directions.
I would hazard a guess that you don’t really have any sort of proof that MO people have a larger age gap. As a 27 year old, I know in both directions MOST of the people I come in contact with are within 2 years of their spouses.
SJS, while women may be most fertile around age 14, most medical experts agree that there are significant health risks associated with young teens having babies. Some of these risks are associated with the fact that teens are less likely to seek prenatal care & practice good nutrition; these risks can be avoided. But young teens are still growing, and pregnancy can injure the undeveloped spine & pelvic bones.
Anon, I’m not disputing that. Just pointing out that fertility declines quickly after that…
The following was just snet to me from the NASI Project from a single girl
“As a 23 year old single girl, I just wanted to let you know that I
think you’ve done the yeshiva world a tremendous service with NASI. I
think that it raised significant awareness about the problem of the
age gap, and has drastically lowered the stigma for a boy marrying a
girl his own age or even older. I know that I’ve dated several guys
barely my own age in the past year, and a sizable number of my friends
have married younger guys as well — and no one thinks twice.
Thank you for doing your best to help the problem of single girls!”
(I can’t put the name here)
I (obviously) second those sentiments
Now Some clarification of misconceptions.
Birth Rate:
In north america white Caucasian community there are actually slightly more male births than female. (based on records kept by hospitals) The discrepancy is not enough to compensate fo a 3-4 yr age gap/ population growth, but is enough to
A) not need to close the age gap entirely only get it to about one year (PM)
B) disprove the notion that the shidduch crisis is due to more female births (SJSinNYC)
AZOI.IS: I have no idea why the community wouldn’t want to encourage boys to be open to dating a girl their own age or even slightly older. In fact a year and a half ago succos time Rav Aharon Feldman put out a letter from Mahran HaRav Elyasiv and counter signed by numerous america roshei yeshovos to that effect. That lettere was printed in Yated Hamodia and other places.
SJSinNYC: Please call SYAS and YU connect who I believe are the two most active shiddcuh organizations catering to the non yeshivish crowd. Please Let us know your findings, (I recommend getting hard numbers from them (like I did) and not just asking one shadchan for their personal observations.
GAW: “you point to the “harder to be a good boy than a good girl” argument, which is logical”
It is wholly irrelavant (and therefore not worth debating whether even true).
WHO DO THE NOT GOOD BOYS MARRY??? They don’t seem to be staying single!
Chaverim: “ignoring all the important questions disputing the age gap farce.”
I’m not quite sure which argumments you feel I’m ignoring. The only one I haven’t responded to (i think) is the fertility and family size issue. I have let that go Simply because I don’t have the shoulders to say that the shidduch crisis warrants having smaller families. However people like Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shteinman do have the shoulders to take the responsibility of encouraging boys to date girls thier own age which inevitable means fewer girls getting married at 19 year old getting married. Incidentally, in all likelihood girls getting married at 21-22 should biterech hateva have plenty of opportunity to have very large families.
We have created 2 communities, one consists of boys, and one of girls. The educational track of each exists without consideration of the other. The two groups have no knowledge of the others’ existence. The ramifications of that situation contributes greatly to the crisis in general, and the age gap specifically. It is unnatural and unreasonable to try to twist arms and coerce (even with financial incentives) to date at a time that suits the needs of the community but goes contrary to their own interests. If the 2 groups knew of each other, motivation would be created where they would see each other as peers. Shidduchim would be created from within the groups who would see each other as natural partners. They would also recommend friends to each other.
I was a Rebbi for many years in a Yeshiva that has parallel tracks for boys and girls. In one class that graduated about 6 years ago there were 50 boys and 50 girls. To date there have been 8 couples (16%) from within that one grade.
In fact a year and a half ago succos time Rav Aharon Feldman put out a letter from Mahran HaRav Elyasiv and counter signed by numerous america roshei yeshovos to that effect.
AZ: Frankly I, and others, do not believe you.
Please post right here in the CR a faithful and verbatim word for word copy of this alleged letter, as well as the “numerous america roshei yeshovos” who counter signed.
AZ: It does not disgard your arguement; they can marry the 19 year old girls who could care less. As you point out, supply and demand.
HOWEVER, if the older girls would have been willing to go out with these (type of) boys earlier, they may be married at this point. Not to blame them (they may prefer not being married), but the point that the “good” girls have fewer boys in the “pool” (or on the island) is also a good one.
AZ, I didnt talk to shadchanim – I was looking around at the married couples I know in a +/- 5 year range. They are mostly all within 2 years of each other. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a gluttony of older single women, just that IMHO, the age gap isn’t whats the driving force.
Also, you didn’t read my post very carefully. I never claimed that there ARE more girls born than boys – it was a question. I know what the birth rates are, but IIRC, the 20-30 age range has an equal number of both genders for causcasians (and by the mid 30s, women outnumber men). I was wondering if amongst orthodox Jews the birth rate of girls may be higher. You didn’t refute this because you didn’t bring any proof! I don’t know if a study has been done with this…
In addition, the study you quote also says that there are 6% of the Orthodox population that goes OTD. If the population is growing at a rate of 4%, but losing 6% a year (assuming they are all boys, since boys have a much higher rate of going OTD from what it seems). That means if you have 100 boys and 100 girls, and you lose 6 boys off the derech, you are left with 94 boys and 100 girls. So, you aren’t increasing the population at the same rate! Now, the 4% growth on the 94 boys and 100 girls leads to 97.75 boys and 104 girls the next year. The next year will end up with 95.57 boys and 108.15 girls, with the rate of women growing exponentially.
Basically the math is that you take your first numbers (100 boys and 100 girls). Reduce the male population by 6% (multiply by 0.94) and then increase the boys and girls by 4% (multiply by 1.04). The girls grow exponentially. Don’t like the 6% and 0% of the off the derech split? 5%/1% works, 4%/2% works….
There could be a math mistake in my assumptions, but I don’t think so. And if thats the case, you would need a HUGE age gap between women and men (meaning women many years older) to bridge the gap.
For the record, the rate of male births is DECLINING worldwide. Yes, there are more boys being born, but they outnumber the female births less and less. And they are less likely to survive childhood.
In fact a year and a half ago succos time Rav Aharon Feldman put out a letter from Mahran HaRav Elyasiv and counter signed by numerous america roshei yeshovos to that effect.
AZ: Frankly I, and others, do not believe you.
Please post right here in the CR a faithful and verbatim word for word copy of this alleged letter, as well as the “numerous america roshei yeshovos” who counter signed.
AZ, I have no problem with setting up boys with older girls, but by discouraging them to go out with younger girls we are in effect putting them in the freezer (sorry for the broken record) and that’s where the population decline will be, if this catches on.
And I am willing to believe what you said about Rav Aharon shlita. I think it was in Horizons that his rebbetzin encouraged it.
Chaverim:
Here it is. Please let me know if you want the hebrew version as well 🙂
??”?
????? ???
Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan 5768
(Signed)
Aharon Feldman
We join in the opinion of the above Gedolei HaDor and encourage bochurim to marry those who are close to their age (and even older), and we bless them that they merit thereby to establish ???? ?????? in Klal Yisroel in which will dwell the limitless blessings of Hashem.
(Signatures in order of receipt)
Yaakov Perlow Shmuel Kamenetsky
Aharon Moshe Schechter Aryeh Malkiel Kotler
Chaim Dov Keller Matisyahu Salomon
Shlomo Eliyahu Miller Shmuel Berenbaum
Elya Dov Wachtfogel Aharon Feldman
Aharon Zelig HaLevi Epstein Dovid Feinstein
Alter Chanoch Henoch HaCohen Lebowitz Yisroel Belsky
Chaim Stein Meir Hershkowitz
Eli Simcha Shustal
AZ: Thank you.
I have one question.
WHY didnt this letter become more publicized?
AZ, I have not been this uplifted in a long time.I thank you very much.
This letter should be printed in every frum newspaper regularly.
Thank you very much for posting the letter. However I don’t think that any of us “naysayers” disagree that it is commendable for a boy to marry a girl of similar age. I also have no problem with encouraging an individual boy who is mature enough for marriage to go out at 22 or even 21. I myself married at 22.5 and my wife was then just a few weeks short of 21. My (our) issue is with pressuring younger boys to begin dating en mass before they are ready, and with preventing girls as a general rule from entering shidduchim before 21. I think these two aspects of the proposed initiative are radical and dangerous, and I have not heard that any Gedolim encouraged them. I do, of course, compliment you on your dedication to helping the poor single girls, and I hope thrashing out the pros and cons will helpfully result in a plan of action that will help more then harm. I’m not convinced that the initiative in its current state would not be a medicine more painful then the disease it comes to cure.
Chevra, we apparently have proof that AZ and Azoiis are two different people. AZ HAS heard of people who are pushing boys marrying older girls, while Azoiis has not.
AZOI.IS – you are right – and what would you put into place to help those girls who are already 23, 24 and on? I don’t know, so I’m not going to answer that question. All I am asking is to prevent having THOUSANDS more 23 & 24 year old single girls.
It’s so simple…. Just bring home the boys from E”Y six months earlier & we’ll see many less older singles!
Apparently for the most part the CR chevra agree that age gap is the most significant issue creating the shidduch crisis.
How to close it is the question.
We would all agree to the following two statements.
1. Throwing the girls into the river is not the way to go.
2. If a boy is redd a girl his own age and it seems appropriate then he should be encouraged to go for it.
Our entire discussion focuses on the gray area between these two extremes, what can be done to effectively further encourage more close in age shidduchim
PM: “My (our) issue is with preventing girls as a general rule from entering shidduchim before 21”
I have not once posted or encouraged girls or their parents to hold them out of the dating scene. However that doesn’t mean that shaddchanim shouldn’t focus more on the girls who are 21-23 before focusing on the fresh from sem girls. Is this SO radical.
- The topic ‘The AZ thread – discuss the shidduch “age gap”’ is closed to new replies.