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“Figures someone with so little value towards learning undertaking such a project. sad actually”
I take no sides in this debate, but proudtatty, you have been called out for the vitriol before; please don’t start again!
The CR is a fun place to interact and exchange ideas; please check out some of the postings on this thread (PM, squeak, AZIOIS, havesomeseichel, lkwdfellow, tzippy, etc) and make note of their ability to debate without resorting to personal attacks. It works, and it’s so much nicer.
oomis1105:
If boys that are 19-20 are being supported, learning, minimal responsibilities, why do they need to be mature to get married? (not pushing the idea, but I feel is a legit. question)
Jax, you’re a shadchan too! Nice going!
“AZ: I am happy to hear you have had the opportunity in to come in contact with many Gedolim. Did you discuss your shiduch initiative with any of them? Did they agree? If yes, why haven’t we heard these Gedolim taking the initiative on these suggestions. The Lkwd RYs could easily encourage bachurim to go out younger if they chose, for example by waiving the “freezer rule” to one who goes out with an older girl”.
PM:
It takes time. They decide when they’re ready.
This is why I feel so strongly about this issue. Someone I know hosts a Tehillim group for mostly “older” girls, some younger, some women. After Tehillim they often get into Shidduchim discussions. They talk about how they don’t have dates, yet aren’t comfortable going out with either Chassidish boys or Modern Orthodox boys, often suggested to them. I am quite sure the situation is the same in Manytowns, USA. They are all excellent girls in every way. As someone involved in Shidduchim, I am very well aware of it from other sources as well.
My knowing that 19 year old girls are on their way home from Seminary, will be vying for the same boys as these girls, when there’s a huge scarcity already, disturbs me terribly.
Anyone here in the CR with any way to help girls like these, please don’t hesitate. Please come forward. This is one of the challenges of this Dor. Al Taamod Al Dam Rayacha.
Hashem please listen to their anguish.
Jax: Tizkeh L’mitzvos. very well done!
PM: As a rov of a community then certainly you are well aware of the difficulty the girls in your community are having with shidduchim.
I would be very curious for you to do a study (although it would be quite a limited sampling) on the couples that come to you with shalom bayis issues and see if 22.5 21 have more difficulties than 23-19.
I have discussed the shidduch situation with each and every one of them (that was my only reason for speaking to them as I have zero interest in wasting their time). They have all peh echad srongly backed encouraging more close in age shidduchim.
You touch on the silver bullet in the shidduch crises.
If come Tu B’shvat/Tamuz boys are only permitted to date girls 21 and older, and to date younger girls a boy must wait till after the zeman, then boys will have a strong incentive to date girls their own age.
They have been approached numerous times. To date they are reluctant to make such a rule even though they are well aware of how serious the age gap problem is.
Why they are reluctant? That’s not for public debate, although I strongly encourage every cr member to bring it up with the powers that be.
I’d love to know what R’ Pinchos Lipshutz of Yated feels about this issue. When he feels strongly for a cause, he gets involved B’Lev Shalem. He is the best.
Re: speaking to Roshei Yeshiva: I have personnaly spoken to Rav Shmuel Berenbaum Zatal, ybcl”c Rav Shteinman (through his chavrusa numerous times). Rav Matisyahu Solomon, The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva, The Noveminsker Rebbe, and many others. I wouldn’t be wasting my time and energy if I didn’t have such strong backing.
This is my biggest problem with your posts. You post that R’ mattisyahu is on board with you, then you go off on the freezer policy, which is a policy in his yeshiva. There is an obvious line here where R’ Mattisyahu (and possible other gedolim end) and you, AZ begin.
Oh, and correct me if I am wrong, but I heard that the freezer did not apply to girl who live in Lakewood
I know I could check Wiki, but just curious: what IS the purpose of the freezer?
And the thought of gedolim coming out with concrete guidelines is absolutely intriguing but I doubt they’d want to touch that with a ten foot pole.
AZ- that sounds like a great idea to make the boys wait longer to date the younger girls. but how would that be instated? wouldnt rebbi’s daughters/yichus and the wealthy find a “heter” or just circumvent the law anyways (because they can)and then we would be stuck with more people who cant find a shidduch!
Jax- mazel tov!
PM – as a Rav, I’m sure you are more aware on sholom bayis issues, and I do hear your point. But, I don’t think – and I may be wrong – that Sholom Bayis is better in a home where the boy started dating at a later age. Boys and girls should be taught Sholom Bayis from when they are very young. If the education begins early, I think that it will help greatly later. I am sure you’ll agree that the age isn’t nearly as important as the education in Sholom Bayis. Therefore, we have to focus on the issue – bringing more boys into Shidduchim. We can do that by bringing them home from E”Y six months younger.
proud tatty – Oh, and correct me if I am wrong, but I heard that the freezer did not apply to girl who live in Lakewood. I’ll correct you. There’s no such exception. Sorry.
As far as the other two points you made, I’m sure there are fellow coffee-roommates who will agree with none, all or some of the points we’ve each made.
AZOI, generally, during a discussion, you acknowledge the point made by someone else and explain why you refrute it, not just say “nonsense” or something. I was just asking for you to mull over what I was saying.
AZ, please explain to me how this age range thing is any way different that saying “Short women shouldn’t be redt to tall men because then the tall women won’t have anyone to marry.” I’ve heard that plenty.
Tzippi, sorry I didnt agree with you then (or rather, I agreed and didn’t push it). It was relatively inconsequential to use a wrong term then. Now, I see its an epidemic.
PT: Incorrect regarding the freezer and girls in lkwd. That is a myth that is and was never true.
havesomeseichel:
TO date the freezer has been very effective to accomplish the goal that it set out to do, and to a “t” there haven’t been heterim given. Therefore it can be used to very effectively encourage more close in age shidduchim without losing the purpose of the freezer, i.e. to have the boys get into their learning in a new yeshiva without having dating on their minds.
Truth be told it is a brilliant suggestion, (it is not my original idea). It trully is a potential silver bullet as there would be 750 boys per year with a very strong incentive to date girls their own age. However, I have very little faith that such change is coming, although we the people have the power to ask the powers that be to please consider it in light of the terrible pain out there and the very real obvious upside.
To all those who are AGAINST change with the NASI age/dating issue:
Don’t tell us what you wouldn’t do, tell us what you would do. Or, would you just do nothing to help “older” girls get married? How would you address these older girls? What would you tell them? How would you handle it if you had daughters or sisters in this situation? Would you just say have Bitachon?
Nice, but not enough.
AZOI.IS:
I think the question as it stands today is “how are we going to intergrate all of these single women into our “family-centric” society?”
I don’t mean this like I am giving up, but the facts as they stand need to be faced.
If boys that are 19-20 are being supported, learning, minimal responsibilities, why do they need to be mature to get married? (not pushing the idea, but I feel is a legit. question)
WHY?????? Because most 19-20 year olds and especially the males, do not yet grasp understand the LIFELONG ramifications of marriage, intimate relationships, parenting, budgeting (at some future point), paying bills when mama and papa are no longer able to continue to support them, and especially how to live with another person who is basically a stranger to them. How many 19 year olds feel the same way about life, their needs, tastes, ability to make a well-thought out decision, when they are five years older? Yes there are some mature 19 year olds. My sister was one of them and has been happily married for over 3 decades. But she was also educated and a little more worldly than the type of girl who gets out of seminary at the same age. A 19 year old boy is still a child in so many ways. Sitting in Yeshivah does not necessarily mature a boy, though it does help him to grow in Torah. I have seen many bochurim who acted like young teenagers and not more like young men ready to assume the achrayus of marriage. Do you think that just because someone is financially supported, that is all he needs in order to be ready to get married? I feel just the opposite is true.
AZOI.IS – gut gezukt! People are bashing a project that’s helping singles. If you have better ideas – let’s hear them. If not – don’t knock people who are doing something!!
glad to hear it AZ. now, lets start the letter writing campaign to the R”Y to force their students to wait!!!
oomis1105:
You have just proved my point. They (boys who will remain in yeshiva & not go to college) are not going to get any more “mature” (able to support, budget, “prepared to live life”) than when they are 23. So once again, why wait?
re: “Well, you see, that is exactly the problem. To have a solution, you must first understand the problem. That means not just admitting that there is a problem ………….
Respectfully, squeak, I don’t think our immediate goal is to theorize. We’ve been doing that and nothing else for many years. That’s why we’re in this mess. Our goal is action. Until anyone has a better or magic or perfect idea, let’s work with the ideas we have, whether perfect or not, and possibly improve on them as we go along. The benefits outweigh the losses.
Otherwise we’ll do nothing.
These girls are waiting, and there are more of them with each passing day.
AZOI.IS:
The better idea would be to have Bochrim/Men get married earlier, not later.
The cynic in me (fair if not posted) says that only Bochrim pay tuition, married men don’t. If everyone (or many boys) were married at 21, there would be more married men and fewer bochrim in Lakewood yeshiva, leading to less tuition paid.
I don’t think this is “the reason”, but there is normally an economic cause (even if its unconscious) behind most actions.
gavra- waiting increases the maturity, as hopefully the parents teach him budgeting and costs of living when they support him. just aging another year helps maturity as they have new experiences. parents should not give them a blank check or act like an ATM, but rather should teach them that they have only a limited amount of money to spend a month ect. Girls in seminary many times are budgeting so why not the boys? why dont we require our boys to grow up?
I’m not sure if this was mentioned before (and I apologize if it was) but how about the seminaries teaching that it is not important to get married at 19 or 20?
I know this is going off on a tangent with regard to the age gap- but I think it is much harder for a guy to be a “good guy” than for a girl to be a “good girl”.
Waking for shachris at say 7:00 A.M. 6 days a week and say 8:00 A.M. on Shabbos to follow a yeshiva schedule is much harder than getting up for zman krias shma and going back to sleep until zman tfilla for those taking college courses in the late morning or afternoon.
Putting in a full day of serious learning is much harder than “doing Raizel Reit”.
In my opinion there are many girls who would not be “good guys” had they been an guy, yet they wouldn’t consider anyone who’s not a “good guy”.
To clear the air: squek is on record as denying that age gap is at the center of the shidduch crisis.
However, so long as these two facts have yet to be disproven,
1. Considerabel Population growth whic = significantly more 19 yr olds than 22.5 yr olds.
2. Girls start dating at 19 boys at 22.5.
It seems like the contributors to this thread have by and large come to realize the obvious truth of these two facts.
I am open to honest debate on it. If no one has any arguments as disprove the validity of these two points, then onwards with the discusion as how to effectively close the age gap.
Oh, by the way there is some very solid anectodatal evidence suggesting that the push to raise awareness has ALREADY yielded hundreds of close in age shidduchim that in all likelyhood (as testified by mothers of the boys) would never have happened.
GAW: If it comes to that, they we will have no choice. I for one am no way near giving up on trying to encourage many more close in age shidduchim and thus many more marriages over all.
Squeak, the benefits definitely do outweigh the losses. If we stay at status quo, a percentage of the presently returning 19 year olds will find themselves single at 22, 23, and 24, and they themselves!!!! will be competing with new 19 year olds, leaving hundreds of new victims yearly, happening over and over.
why else would organizations give money to couples who get engaged where the girl is older than the guy if the age gap doesnt exist?
GAW, the parents may not have to pay tuition, but the parents in law will.
I just saw last week’s Yated and saw a promo for a shidduch gathering for ladies in Lakewood. I would love to have been a fly on the wall. Anyone go? For the record, all the people involved are people I greatly respect and who act l’shem shamayim. Just wondering if there were any chiddushim.
Most Shadchanim agree that there is an age gap problem. They are “in the trenches” and really know what’s happening. Askonim like AZ are working very hard to help solve the problem. Some on this thread don’t agree. If you don’t agree with AZ and his methods, please be so kind as to offer your alternative eitzos.
Looking foward.
One practical idea we can implement is that as parents we should teach our children not to fold to societal pressures. this includes getting married at specific times or doing “what the kleins do”. Many people dont want to go against the accepted societal norms but we should be stronger than to follow them if it is not for our benefit. Just like we tell our kids that we dont have to buy the expensive brand-name clothing, we should tell them that “what is good for the klein’s may not be what’s best for us”.
Dr Pepper:
“but I think it is much harder for a guy to be a “good guy” than for a girl to be a “good girl”.”
Totally irrelevant regarding the shidduch crisis because of the the simple question.
WHO are the “not good” guys marrying.
And by and large they are all getting married. Perhaps the “not good” girls are getting married and the “good girls” are getting stuck. (totally unproven and unsubstantiated hypothesis).
Either way it is unacceptable that any class of girls be stuck. we as a community can make a difference. Let’s do it.
“You have just proved my point. They (boys who will remain in yeshiva & not go to college) are not going to get any more “mature” (able to support, budget, “prepared to live life”) than when they are 23. So once again, why wait”
Respectfully, I disagree. Just by virtue of getting older, people experience things in life that help to mature them. Certainly, unless he is really dysfunctional, most people would agree that a 23 year old boy or girl is not the same as a 19 year old. My son is about to turn 23, and though he has always been mature in many ways, he is certainly more grown up than he was when he 19.
Hello, squeak! Good try. Fancy but empty words, zero substance! ABI GEREDT. AZ makes loads of sense whatever words you choose to describe the ideas he’s promoting with.
Squeak, let’s get to the point! What are you going to tell the teary eyed girls at the Tehillim group other than have Bitachon, and perhaps suggesting they join a nunnery? What are you prepared to do to prevent the numbers of such girls from steadily increasing?????????????????????
Why your vendetta? Do you know AZ personally?
Unless you come up with better options, I choose to ignore you from now on. It’s sooooo easy to sit with “Tzamgeleigte Hent” and criticize others.
oomis1105: I am of the opinion (of course you are free to argue) that the younger a couple gets married, the less they are set in their ways, and the more they will be interested in agreement vs. stubornness. For many bochrim there is not much difference between 20 & 23 as far as life experiance, etc. Your son (who is not most Bochrim) has a very different backgroud & outlook than the people that we are talking about.
tzippi: It will be very difficult to place tuition requirements on married Kollel Bochrim, with Kollels currently being set up as paying.
squeak:
The current incentives have already manipulated the Olam into its current state, there is no reason why we should not change those incentives as to place us in a better state.
Is your argument that the status quo is acceptable? If is is, please state so.
AZ-
I’m sure you’re a nice person but from the way you word some of your posts it seems as if you feel that your opinion is fact and can not be questioned. Before hitting “Send Post” please read over what you wrote keeping in mind that those who read it do not know who you are and will not hear your tone or see your facial expressions.
That being said let me try to explain why I feel that “I think it is much harder for a guy to be a “good guy” than for a girl to be a “good girl”.” is relevant.
This story happened about 7 years ago. A guy asked a shadchan to set him up with a girl from a nice family. The shadchan knew that the girl wouldn’t be interested since he missed shachris with a minyan 3-4 times a year (so he was there only about 99% of the time). The shadchan didn’t want to get on their bad side by mentioning a guy who they felt was “below par” so she asked me to. (I know the family and I’m not a shadchan so I have no reputation to lose.) The girl was running a successful internet business from her parents house and was able to keep her own hours. Normal waking time for her was between 10:00 and 11:00 (she was makpid on the zmanim though).
The mother wouldn’t hear of it. “My sons are at shachris on time every single day and I want the same thing for my daughter”. Oh really? Who are you fooling? Definitely not me. I was in Yeshiva with them at the time and I knew who was at shachris on time and who would do a 10 minute “quickie” right before seder.
While she may be considered a “good girl”, the same schedule for a guy would not be considered a “good guy”.
I don’t know who the guy was or his current marital status but the girl is 28 and single.
So AZ, it’s quite possible that after this didn’t work out he pursued a 19 year old thus creating a “gap”. If you look at the big picture you might find many cases where a girl did not give the guy enough leeway and he pursued someone younger instead.
As far as your question, “WHO are the “not good” guys marrying.”
Maybe they are marrying out of Yeshivish circles and thus reducing the number of eligible single males in Yeshivish circles.
squeak – I see that you feel that you are getting nowhere argueing with AZ. That’s fine. You are entitled. But, what do suggest as an alternative to what AZ suggests? Do you have another eitza?? You don’t want to see ” a severe form of sheep-herding (i.e. mass manipulation” – I agree. But we need to help the THOUSANDS of single girls out there. What are you doing to help them?
To GAW: how much are kollelim paying?
And I’m not sure if you missed my point. The boy’s parents may no longer be paying tuition, but the girl’s side (it’s largely the girl’s side) will ponying up big, likely more than they were paying for to keep their daughter afloat till her chasuna.
With so many people talking about how its easier to be a “good girl than a good guy”, I have some points to ponder. everyone has a different take on the definition “good” so we should be careful what we say, just like in other “types-yeshivish, chareidi, MO ect”
-Each person/gender has their own role, tafkid, “job requirements” ect. They are each made for that one. Men have a chiuv to daven on time, women dont. But women must take care of the family, make dinner, raise the kids, and many times work too. Men go to their office/B”M (go to earner/learner for that debate) and dont come home until dinner time. Women cant be responsible to daven because who knows what the kids will be up to? so zemanim cant be a defining characteristic for a “good girl/guy”. When comparing two people of the same gender, now that is a different story.
-what would be a “plus” for one person may be a detriment for another…
– many times there is more supervision for the girls, so they “have to be good”. Seminary in E”Y vs B”M. mother of the guys know what girls are like, so they want perfect girls for their sons.
A big thing that needs to be solved on the shidduch scene is the blatant L”H that goes around. Rumors come and go and you never know where they might land. Dont believe them until you check it with reliable people (Rav who knows them ect). Just because someone says something does not mean that it might be in any way true. I know someone who heard a rumor about a family. the rumors had been spread about them a while back because someone else in the area held a grudge against them. the rumors were not true at all and the Rabbi said so, but they are still today being passed around and around and around. people believe what they hear but they arent always true!!!! dont spread them around because you never know where they might land.
squeak – you don’t seem to care at all about the thousands of single girls. You say you would like to keep the system status quo. As you say it’s really only a problem in the tiny, tiny world of yeshivish shidduch dating. And you don’t seem to really think it’s worth helping the thousands of girls in that tiny, tiny world. That concentrated group – as you refer to them – is probably not worth getting all bent out of shape about, correct? A silly world which learns in Yeshivos – all a bunch of bentch-kvetchers anyways….. And as you say it may even have something to do with migration in and out of the system. Right, it probably does – so, let’s just leave them single – who cares…..
That’s a wonderful approach.
havesomeseichel-
From the items you mentioned for being a good girl: how many of them apply before one is married?
“Women must take care of the family, make dinner, raise the kids, and many times work too.” It’s hard to give someone a grade on those items before they are married.
“am of the opinion (of course you are free to argue) that the younger a couple gets married, the less they are set in their ways, and the more they will be interested in agreement vs. stubornness.”
This is me, being free to argue ; GAW. How many kids of that age have you met????? Young kids are extremely set in their ways, their notions, the belief that they know it all. That is actually a description of a teen-early 20s kid. With age hopefully also comes the wisdom and maturity that lends itself to agreement vs. stubbornness. that is not to say that a 23 year old is mature, necessarily, but certainly moreso than the average 19 year old. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think you are looking at an ideal situation, and most kids are far from ideal.
Mrs. tzippi: That (girls parents will be paying extra) is a good point, but negligable compared to their daughter getting married, and the boy’s parents should help as well (at least the amount of tuition?).
Squeak: We may not know anything ever with certainty, so a certain amount of “trial & error” may be needed. There is the argument that the fix may cause things to go much worse than before.
Dr. Pepper: I am not even debating the notion of whether there are more “good” than “good” guys and possible explanations for that phenomena.
Simply put if we have 150 girls on a island and 100 guys. The max number of girls who can get married is 100. Perhaps the leftover 50 will be the “good” girls because the 100 guys are “not good” guys. Either way you slice it, there are 50 girls with no shot. The reason for the inequity of the numbers?
AGE GAP
Squeak:
“And in the Jewish world at large this problem is unheard of.” Blatantly Incorrect.
Please speak to SYAS, YU Connect and the myriad of other organizations that have their finger on the pulse of the non yeshivish dating scene. Please ask them if they have equal numbers of older girls and older guys. Please ask them if the typical marriage is close in age or not. I HAVE DONE MY RESEARCH
You have yet to present a reasonable argument disproving
A. Popultation Growth (younger grades significantly larger than older grades)
B. Girls start dating a couple years earlier than guys (pretty obvious)
C. The natural outcome of A+B = many more girls in the shidduch pool= many many girls having no shot to get married not at 19 and not at 35
If you care to debate A-B-C fine. If the issue is how to alleviate the problem or perhaps despite the situation the solutions are more detrimental than the present problem, that’s fine as well. Please clarify the point of debate.
squeak, I thought I’d stop responding to you, but I just had to.
“And in the Jewish world at large this problem is unheard of. The problem belongs only to this concentrated group”
ABSOLUTELY WRONG! There is the identical problem in the Modern Orthodox liberal, Modern Orthodox “middle of road”, Modern Orthodox Machmir, YU- to the left, YU to the right, circles as well!!!! with many more girls than boys. I’ve spoken to many Shadchanim that cater to those crowds, and they all agree. Ask any of the hundreds of Sawyouatsinai matchmakers. They’re singing the same song as us on Yeshivaworld. Not enough boys! Only difference is the pressure for a girl to be married at 21- 22 isn’t as great in those crowds, so it’s not that hard-hitting.
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