The antizionism amongst religious Jews has no legitimate detractors

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  • #2371500
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    By the way till the machlokos R chaim ozer and Rubenstein the mizrachi was part of the agudah party. They didn’t see zionism as heresy even if they disagreed. It wasn’t until the chaftez chaim protested due to the lack of respect shown to r chaim Ozer in vilna, that the mizrachi split. (That was only the last 20 years of before the war) Again not “all gedolim” were against zionsim

    #2371557
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Chaim:
    Yes, they are irrelevant. Go ahead and produce the written teshuva from them supporting Zionism.
    The reasons have already been noted multiple times why both Rabbi Kook and EHS are irrelevant.
    Zionism is clearly and factually against the Torah. Always was, and nobody of authority holds otherwise.

    #2371591

    Chaim > they all held of Zionism

    Chaim, maybe you need define what the “held of Zionism” means. I presume they were not members of the hashomer hatzair. Were they supporting settling EY; or said that it is better for all Jews to be in EY than die under Commies and Nazis; or agreed to join government, etc. There are a lot of gradation.

    For example, R Soloveitchik criticizes both non-religious leaders of Israel (and before) and also those religious leaders who refuse to cooperate with them …
    in one 1945 speech, he talks about Tzitz (head, halachik decisions) and Hoshen (political decisions) being attributes of the same Kohen Godol. That politics should be dealt with, and dealt with in torah ways, and he says unfortunately we now have Kohanim with Tzitz and Kohanim with Hoshen each dealing only in their own area and refusing to cooperate.

    #2371592

    non-political > I see parody has become the order of the day

    yes, please explain me who will call himself a “katan”? I am not talking about the humbleness, just the nikudos. Nukudos are either Sephardi or Israeli, but position is ostensibly of the loshen koidesh derech. So, maybe it is just a mean zionist plot to discredit their detractors by painting them as stubborn and illogical.

    A freiliche Pirem.

    #2371593

    HaKatan > Rabbi Kook and Eim HaBanim Semeichah are both irrelevant

    I agree with you that the point of this discussion is not to rely on those with the most pro-zionist position. You obviously disagree with them vehemently.
    It would be more productive if you can address more mainstream rabbis (quoted above all over) who accepted interaction with zionists – to some degree, in a limited way, conditionally, with reservations – but more than Satmar Rebbe. The best way would be for you to quote their seforim and explain what you think of those. This is not too much to ask.

    #2371594

    When talking about historical attitudes, one interesting nekudah is a question of participating in Israeli government.

    I’ll put it in broad terms, please correct me if I am off: initially, haredim were against participation. Then, sephardim formed their own party and started participating (presumably getting financial benefits for that), while ashkenazim said that it is impossible (essentially HaKatan’s position). Then Rav Schach changed position and formed Degel HaTorah to follow it. Other disagreed. For example (young) R Sternbuch wrote something against this. R Schach did not respond directly but wrote a letter (that was, of course, publicized) to someone else explaining his change.

    #2371625
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @ HaKatan
    You keep on hocking that I need a “written teshuva” . You made that up. I do not need that. Mesora is enough. You don’t get to make up the rules.

    Yes R kook is relevant. You can say 100 times he is not and I will say he is. Again you don’t get to decide that.

    #2371626
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Questions
    Firstly yes R kook is relevant. The point is that even if one tzadik said that Zionism has a source in our Torah, no one can get up and say that no one ever held of Zionism and that’s it’s Hersey. The point is exactly that. It’s ok to say we can’t pasken like a minority but you can’t call it 100% Heretic. That’s the point . Hakatan thinks he knows more than R kook or that the rebbe of R elyshav and R shloma zalman doesn’t count.

    Re your next question, what do I mean by they all supported Zionism? Very simple . They all supported the idea that Jews should have its own state in Palestine run by Jews. Did they support secularism ? No . That’s where it gets tricky. At the end of the day they opposed the fact that Ben gurion was such a rasha as well. And soon I’ll get to what changed.

    The Ashkenazim joined the govt way before R shach . The imeri emes sent R itcha Meir levin to the kneeset. R shach came into the picture after Beagin won. Began was a good Jew who was not out to shmad the frum. (Aside for the fact that he refused to shoot at the rasha ben gurion who tried to kill him)Began supported the Olim hatorah which then drew R shach in. In essence the askneazim always were part of the Knesset. The difference was if they can take minister portfolios. That only the sefardim allowed.

    #2371627
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @Chaim
    By the way till the machlokos R chaim ozer and Rubenstein the mizrachi was part of the agudah party. They didn’t see zionism as heresy even if they disagreed. It wasn’t until the chaftez chaim protested due to the lack of respect shown to r chaim Ozer in vilna, that the mizrachi split. (That was only the last 20 years of before the war) Again not “all gedolim” were against zionsim
    [chaim]

    Historically incorrect.
    Aguda was never part [or one] with mizrachi.
    They were AGAINST mizrachi.

    This is alef bet in history.
    .

    #2371645
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ somejew

    “You wrote: we do have a clear Gemara in Chilin that say that we can paskin a question based on the observed actions of a Talmid Chuchem with a chazukeh as a Tzadik, that is obviously only in the case of a question between two shitas in Torah. Certainly, we don’t paskin to go after an observed avairah!”

    Per the above ANY written or oral source that disagrees with Satmar / Brisk will simply be construed by you as (1) going after an observed avairah. Even if the Ravs authority (in the source presented) would be unimpeachable by your own standards you would certainly take the position that the source is (2) mzuif or (3) the Rav wrote based on misinformation.

    But then you wrote: “To push the point home… I am looking for bona fida Torah sources.”

    It seems to me that either (1) you did not write the above line (and the OP) in good faith or (2) you didn’t realize that what you wrote doesn’t shtim with itself. Of course, it’s also possible that I am simply misunderstanding you

    Next

    You wrote: If anyone here is interested in taking this conversation seriously, we need to start with defining our terms, specifically “what is zionism”…if anyone want to continue this and offer a meaningful definition of Zionism, ie. the novel ideology that started in the 19th century that the world refers to when they say “Zionism”, please go for it.

    That was a very good example of begging the question.

    Also, we don’t really need to define Zionism. It will be quite sufficient for the purposes of this discussion to state clearly the SPECIFIC anti-Torah beliefs and actions you understand to be associated with Zionism. We can then discuss each one individually.

    #2371659
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    My question is, everyone knows that R Yoel was an anti Zionist. But why should one care what he says? R’ Yoel was not a gadol hador. He was a great Rebbe for HIS chasidim, but the majority of Jews are NOT his chasidim or even hold of him or his sefer. This does not mean he was not a great Rebbe.
    So if he does not want to live in Israel, so be it. I don’t care. I also don’t care what he has to say about the topic because I do not hold of him either. If he is YOUR Rebbe, you follow him.

    #2371665
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    The people who were against Zionism, unfortunately, perished in the War. R’Yoel escaped so he was not in the camps and did not fully experience the horrors.

    A example of someone who was a staunchly anti Zionist but then became a Zionist because of the war was Rabbi Yissachar Teichtal HYD.

    Enough said

    #2371697
    ZSK
    Participant

    @HaKatan – I fail to see humor in anything you say. The parody was to show you what you sound like. Apparently it wasn’t effective because you *still* don’t get it.

    You’re never going to convince me of your position, just as I am never going to convince you of mine. Like Chaim, I will continue to answer you Rav for Rav, Midrash for Midrash, Gemara for Gemara, despite your pathetic one-line pronouncments delegitimizing anyone who doesn’t agree with you. And I will continue to point out the critical methodological error in the SR’s work – We do not issue Psak Halacha based on Aggada, which *is not* up for debate. What you and somejewiknow should do is quit slandering the Religious Zionist community once and for all and apologize.


    @Always_Ask_Questions
    – The issue with threads concerning Zionism, the IDF, etc. is that backers of HaKatan’s position define Zionism as it was defined in the 1800-1900s within the realm of nationalism that was de rigueur at the time. They also (incorrectly) lump ideologically secularist Zionism together with Religious Zionism. To them, it is all black-and-white. That isn’t how things were and they are certainly not so today, which does in fact require HaKatan and his ilk to reexamine their position. The average Religious Zionist doesn’t define Zionism or Religious Zionism the way HaKatan and company do. Neither do ideologically secularist Zionists. And secularist Zionists don’t define Zionism in the manner of Religious Zionism or per HaKatan’s camp. There is a gulf between Rav Kook and Herzl/Ben Gurion, just like there is one between the SR and Rav Kook, but HaKatan and somejewiknow will not admit to such. Instead, it’s all the same because of “Zionism” (Nice Tzad HaShave on their part, but it’s quite erroneous). That makes any sort of discussion impossible.

    It’s also impossible to have a discussion because HaKatan’s camp insists on preconditions for the discussion, which everyone has to accept. Those “facts” are: (1) Zionism in any form – even Religious Zionism – is heresy; (2) Rav Kook, Ein HaBanim Semeicha or any other source that supports our position (Orot, Avnei Nezer and Alo Na’aleh specifically come to mind, as do parts of Lev Avraham, even Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik) are all illegitimate sources; (3) Zionists are “kofrim” (an ad hominem attack against those who disagree, which is a logical fallacy); (4) Zionism is an aveira; and (5) the only unimpeachable sources are VaYoel Moshe and a few terse statements by several Litvish Rabbonim. That’s exactly what HaKatan and somejewiknow did, and the record on this form proves as such.

    This sadly and unfortunately is like the Israeli government negotiating with the PA or Hamas, where Hamas sets preconditions that Israel has to accept before negotiations can even begin. Yes, I did just make that comparison – because it is true. No discussion can be had under such circumstances, because there isn’t anything to discuss.


    @somejewiknow
    – I answered you in the other thread. Go read Rav Aviner’s work – it’s available on multiple websites. While you’re at it, also Avnei Nezer and Rav Drukman’s work about it. This really isn’t difficult.

    #2371732
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @yankel berel
    I stand corrected half way. They weren’t called “agudah”. Agudah was indeed founded to be against religous zionists. However, before the fight they stood united and worked together as one “party”.

    Before the ideological split became more pronounced, Agudath HaRabbonim and Mizrachi were initially part of a broader Orthodox Jewish political coalition in Eastern Europe. While it was not called “Agudah” at first, there was an early period where Orthodox leaders from different ideological backgrounds cooperated in communal and political matters.

    And my point remains that you can’t call mizrachi the same level as reform jew and other secular forces or the rabbonim would have never worked together

    #2371757
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    FULL DISCLOSURE:

    I did NOT write this letter or any part of it.
    I do NOT know who wrote this letter.
    I just copied it from www (dot) matzav (dot) com.

    ==============

    Dear Matzav Inbox,

    I have absolutely no problem with anyone holding a shitah that is anti-Tzioni.
    I understand fully the perspective of those who oppose the medinah.

    Every individual and kehillah is entitled to their views on this matter,
    and we should not forget that there are many legitimate reasons
    to question or oppose the modern state of Israel and its government.

    This is a topic that has many layers.
    We must be able to have these discussions, respectfully and thoughtfully.

    However, what I cannot tolerate, and what I am calling out in this long overdue letter,
    is when this anti-Zionist stance ceases to be a viewpoint or a political position,
    and instead becomes the very foundation of someone’s Yiddishkeit.

    There is a great difference between holding an opinion about the medinah
    and allowing that opinion to consume and define your entire avodas Hashem.

    When opposition to the medinah and the Israeli government transforms
    into the entire essence of one’s Yiddishkeit, something is terribly amiss.

    Then it is no longer simply about politics or ideology.
    It actually becomes a warped form of Avodah Zarah,
    where the focus is no longer on serving Hashem,
    but on serving an anti-Tzioni agenda.

    Yes, you know exactly what I’m talking about.

    And for those who have fallen into this trap, how is it that every drasha,
    every event, and every conversation somehow
    revolves around the same refrain of anti-Tzioni sentiment?

    Is that your whole avodas Hashem?
    How is it that every shmuess, every message,
    and every teaching is framed through the lens of opposition to the medinah?

    When one’s Yiddishkeit is entirely defined by this opposition,
    we must ask: Are you still serving Hashem?

    Or are you now serving your anti-Tzioni views,
    as if they were the central aspect of our Torah observance?

    Let me be clear:
    When the agenda of opposition to the medinah infiltrates every aspect
    of avodas Hashem, one is in danger of losing sight of what is truly important.

    When you are teaching 5-year-olds this type of stuff
    on an equal footing with Torah and mitzvos,
    you have gone off the plantation.

    It is no longer about serving Hashem through the Torah and mitzvos,
    but about serving an ideological position.

    And once that happens, one is no longer engaging in avodas Hashem
    as the Torah teaches us, but is rather caught up in a false religion,
    one that elevates these views above the true avodah of a Yid.

    I implore my fellow Yidden to call this out for what it is and what it has become.

    Never lose sight of the fact that our true identity as Yidden
    is not defined by one specific ideology,
    but by our connection to Hashem, His Torah, and His mitzvos.

    Sincerely,
    A Yid Who Has Had Enough

    SOURCE: Matzav Inbox: “When Being Anti-Tzioni Becomes Your Avodah Zarah”
    2024 December 24 www (dot) matzav (dot) com

    ==============

    PERSONAL COMMENT:

    In Brooklyn there is a yeshivah for Baalei Teshuvah where
    the FIRST lesson the students learn is to HATE “The Zionists”.

    Why should that be the FIRST lesson they learn?

    I was once lectured about the evils of “The Zionists” by
    a very new student from that yeshivah, who was so new
    that he did not yet know how to recite Shma Yisrael.
    When I tried to change the subject, he refused to stop.
    He was completely brainwashed and unbearably irritating.

    #2371957
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ ZKS and @ Chaim 87

    You guys are obviously not responsible for every idiocy being propagated in the name of R”Z. At the same time given what some of the posters have written on this and the other thread the silence in deafening.

    @ aaq

    I really enjoyed your post. a freilichin Purim.

    #2372065

    Chaim > Firstly yes R kook is relevant
    And ZSK similar.

    I am thinking it is a stretch to try to have antiZ acknowledge R Kook and similar rabonim. It would be easier to have a dialog about Rabbonim that were well known to have respectful relationships (even with disagreements) with Rabbonim antiZs consistently recognize.

    ZSK > They also (incorrectly) lump ideologically secularist Zionism together with Religious Zionism

    Right. That is why I would advise these guys to go open a sefer from the Rabbonim they can accept and then let’s have an informed discussion. Let them point out what exactly they disagree, how R Yoel argues on R Soloveitchik and let us understand those disagreements. I am shocked, shocked that they are not showing any signs that they opened a sefer. It is not osur to read a kosher sefer that you disagree with. Beis Shammai & Beis Hillel knew other’s halochos.

    #2372066

    Chaim > The Ashkenazim joined the govt way before R shach . The imeri emes sent R itcha Meir levin to the kneeset. R shach came into the picture after Beagin won

    you are right. they supported from outside of the government without joining. Still. R Schach’s position was a change from the previous one. Was previous position conditioned on what party was in charge? After all, Begin was still a Zionist … I am bringing this as an example that very strong position can suddenly change over time…

    Note that R Schach did not have any illusions about the government. Begin offered to fully support charedi yeshivos the same way as other schools. Charedi politicians were very happy – but R Schach said to refuse full support. His rationale: you will dismantle your financial support network and when a government changes and takes away the benefits, you will have to close yeshivos.

    #2372184
    ZSK
    Participant

    @Non Politcal – Please let me know what wasn’t responded to. It is possible that those questions/objections may not be relevant, or the R”Z community doesn’t necessarily disagree, so there’s nothing to respond to.


    @Always_Ask_Questions
    – You can try to get antiZ to acknowledge those Rabbonim, however, HaKatan and Co. don’t recognize those Rabbonim either (as an example, there places on this forum where they tar and feather Rav JB Soloveitchik with regard to Torah U’Madda and Modern Orthodoxy). At this point, it’s easier to just call them out and bombard them with questions – and let them try to answer. As you’ve probably noted, I’ve provided Z and quasi-Z sefarim that respond to the antiZ position without even mentioning Rav Kook or Rav Teichtal.

    I do want to make two tangential comments:

    1) Despite being part of the RZ community (I only left the Yeshiva world because of hypocrisy and its attitude toward the State (Mussar shmuessen are not the place to rant about the IDF, the State and the Rabbanut), I see the problems with the RZ community (especially in Yeshivot HaKav as well as Gush) I’m not blind. I’m simply fed up with the Charedi position vis a vis the State, the IDF, etc. – because it affects my immediate family and it needs to change.

    2) HaKatan and Co. have accused the RZ community of “sacrificing their children to Molech, in the current form of IDF enlistment”. There is something that needs to be clarified. I’ve spoken to a broad swath of Israeli society regarding the issue. The consensus is that if there were no draft, no one would serve other than Chardalim (who have their own set of issues related to Rav Tau and Yeshivot HaKav. Not for this thread). However, there is a law that everyone has to serve. So the RZ community does, as does everyone else in the state – with the excpetion of Charedim. RZ Rabbonim all clearly see the problems with the IDF – That’s what Hesder and Mechinot are supposed to combat, and they do a reasonably good job of doing so.

    #2372170
    catch yourself
    Participant

    @ujm:
    I am well aware of Rav Hirsch’s position on Zionism; indeed, my intention in making reference to him was precisely to show that I am not a Zionist by any stretch of the imagination.


    @Square_Root
    :
    Rav Hirsch’s anti-Zionism is explicit in countless places in his writings, and implicit in countless more. If you can’t be bothered to do the most rudimentary research to find the truth, that’s not my problem.

    To anyone with even the slightest familiarity with Rav Hirsch, it’s obvious that no world events, not even the Holocaust, could shake his convictions. To get a taste of this, you can read the beginning of his first essay on Adar, which can be found in Volume II of Collected Writings.

    #2372175
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    “And he [Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz] expressed
    amazement that anyone who considered himself a good Jew
    could possibly go seven days without thinking of some way
    in which he could improve the lot of settlers
    in Eretz Yisrael or otherwise improve the Land.”

    SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
    the architect of Torah in America (chapter 25, page 322) by Yonoson Rosenblum
    for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
    ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

    __________________________________________
    Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah
    and became principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas in year 1921 CE.

    His career in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas lasted 25 years.
    He was known as “the premier architect of Torah in American history.”

    He left this world in 1948 CE at the age of 62 years.

    __________________________________________
    PERSONAL COMMENT:

    If you read the quote shown above carefully,
    you will understand that Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz
    (who was known as: “the premier architect of Torah in American history”)
    wanted ALL JEWS to help the settlers in Eretz Yisrael,
    even though those settlers were ZIONISTS!!!

    But please, do not listen to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
    just because he was known as:
    “the premier architect of Torah in American history”.

    Instead, focus 100% of your attention on VaYoel Moshe,
    because that is the *** ONLY *** opinion that ever counts,
    and all other opinions are totally irrelevant and worthless.

    #2372257
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Square Root

    The only thing worse then a anti tzioni is a anti tzoini shadchan who would not red a shidduch for short men and heavy girls and listens to music while people are held hostage.

    Source Chanaya Weissman

    #2372317
    Ari Knobler
    Participant

    The moderator is censoring comments.

    #2372328
    Avi K
    Participant

    HaKatan, are you bringing up that canard about the three oaths again? I have already debunked them here several times.

    1. Reish Lakish said the opposite *Yoma 9b).
    2, Rav Chaim Vital said (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim 8) that they were only for 1,000 years.
    3. Rambam does not pasken them in Mishna Torah. Neither do any of the Rishonim, Shulchan Aruchm Rema, and Achronim. Ramban (Sefer haMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot” 4) says that it is an obligation in our time to conquer Eretz Yisrael.
    4. The other nations broke their vow several times (Crusades, Chmielnitzki massacres, pogroms, Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off.,
    5. Rav Meir Simcha said that the San Remo Convention revoked them as it is no longer “rebellion”.
    6. Rav Solovichik said (Kol Dodi Dofek) that Hashem has called.

    #2372340
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ ZSK

    I’m referring to comments (not made by you or Chaim 87) that are מבזה תלמידי חכמים. Regardless of what segment of the Torah community one is from affronts to Kavod HaTorah must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. Comments that Hareidi Gedolim caused the Holocaust or somehow missed pashut pshat in Tanach are deplorable and certainly outside the pale of acceptable discourse. When such comments are made in the name of / in defense of R”Z one would expect the bnei Torah among them to protest.

    #2372387
    ZSK
    Participant

    @Non Political – I thought the person in question was more making a rhetorical point than anything else, and quite frankly those statements were not any worse than anything HaKatan and somejewiknow said about RZ Rabbonim, especially Rav Kook. And he did apologize for the disrespect in another thread, and explained why it occurred. But yes, disrespect towards Rabbonim is unacceptable across the board, from Charedi to RZ.


    @Avi
    K – Yes, he’s doing it again, this time going after Religious Zionism as opposed to Zionism in general. He’ll never stop.

    #2372449
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Avi K

    HaKatan and somejew claim that based on the Satmar Rebbe, Brisk, and all the Gedolim “Zionism (including R”Z) is OBVIOUSLY kfira and apikorsis. So even if the three oaths where not an issue we would still have a problem. Now, I have tried (thus far unsuccessfully) to get them to provide some actual positive content to this claim. Even an appeal to authority should be attached to a specific, unambiguous claim.

    Something like this:

    Step 1. Religious Zionists believe / do__________(include one or more specific, unambiguous beliefs or actions).
    Step 2. The Satmar Rebbe / Brisker Rav says __________ is/are obviously kfira / apikorisis (include referenced citation)

    #2372496
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avi K:
    Your wording is disgusting, as you labeled a “canard” an open gemara, which is also brought down by poskim on the spot there and elsewhere.

    The Satmar Rav and others (conveniently) dismiss all your non-points. In brief:
    1. No he didn’t. But we anyways pasken like the oaths, as per all the poskim that bring those as halacha including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.
    2. No, that was not referring to these oaths.
    3. See #1. He paskened like them in Iggeres Teiman. You are left with an academic question as to why it’s not in other sefarim too. The Satmar Rav and others addressed that academic question, which is otherwise irrelevant.
    4. Nope. See #1. As the Satmar Rav brought down, the Rambam and others held them to be applicable despite “too much” persecution. And even if that were true, the “cancellation” would apply only to the oath of not rebelling against the nation, but not the others of dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated.
    5. This is am haAratzus, at best. Assuming that Rav Meir Simcha even wrote that, because it was written with no source, in a “religious zionist” publication, all he allegedy said was that the *fear of violating* the oaths would no longer apply in light of the Balfour Declaration permitting Jews to settle in then-Palestine. So, he never stated that the oaths no longer apply, only that the oath against rebelling against the nations would not be a concern if the nations permit Jews to settle there. But that Balfour Declaration was anyways later retracted, the Brits wrote that the Zionists read much more into it than they had permitted, and, perhaps more importantly, none of this has any bearing on the other oaths, including dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated, as mentioned above.
    6. This is beyond am haAratzus. And therefore? The gedolim all disagreed with Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s nonsense/heresy (that’s what it is) in his Kol Dodi Dofek speech of his invented 6 defakos, to which you refer. Any ben Torah can see how his 6 defakos argument is pathetically wrong, especially with hindsight, the benefit of which that Rabbi Dr. did not have. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro spends a few pages in his book on dealing with that nonsense from Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik, in case you’re interested. Ayein sham.

    As Rav Schwab noted, the “Modern Orthodox” are in fact “stale and fossilized” (see #6 above, in particular – he didn’t have the benefit of hindsight, but we all certainly do) and we may not yield even one inch to their “heresy”.

    Zionism is factually against Judaism and the Torah, and no amount of “Religious Zionist” propaganda will make it even remotely okay, and there are no source they can bring, as the OP noted.

    #2372572
    somejewiknow
    Participant

    @HaKatan, you wrote “The gedolim all disagreed with Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s nonsense/heresy ”

    do you have any published sources for this?

    #2372589
    somejewiknow
    Participant

    @Avi-K

    From Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
    canard (noun)
    1a
    : a false or unfounded report or story
    especially : a fabricated report
    The report about a conspiracy proved to be a canard.
    b
    : a groundless rumor or belief
    the widespread canard that every lawyer is dishonest

    Yes you were just kofer in “Kol HaTorah Keelo”. You should take back your words and do tshiva

    #2372593
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @ HaKatan
    Again because others disagreed that means that R solvetchik doesn’t count and it’s an arutzas. Yup same with R kook same with eim habonim. Oh and if Satmar Reba dismissed the arguments that makes the other side keflra?

    Your arrogance holds no bounds and you are full of hot air. When only your side counts and everyone else is dismissed as an am haratz or kofer you are nothing more than a loud bully. You can fairly argue that these gedolim were mostly das yachid and we shouldn’t pasken like them although I am not sure that’s accurate. But to say with certainty is just your arrogant bully lies .

    We must not get intimidated and resist hakatan bullying.
    Zionism is NOT factually against our Torah. According to many holy Jews Zionism is al pi Torah. We have Torah sources and Mesorah which is stronger than Torah sources. Of course the biggest proof is that the religious Zionist remain strong shomeri Torah umitzvas. That’s the siman.

    #2372600
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    HaKatan said:

    “There is zero source for Zionism in the Torah, as mentioned.”

    =======================================

    MY RESPONSE:

    Babylonian Talmud, tractate Ketubot, page 110B:

    “Our Rabbis taught:

    A man should always reside in the Land of Israel,
    even in a city whose majority is idol-worshippers,
    and do not dwell outside the Land of Israel,
    even in a city whose majority is Jewish,
    because those who dwell in the land of Israel
    are as if they have a G*D; and those who
    dwell outside the land are as if they have no G*D.”

    _____________________________________________________
    Rabbi Yerachmiel of Kozhnitz:

    “Thank G_D, I am not jealous of a single soul,
    except those Jews who have been able to go to Eretz Yisrael.”

    NOTE: Rabbi Yerachmiel of Kozhnitz was the 6th
    Kozhnitzer Rebbe, who died 13 Elul 1909 CE.

    SOURCE: Something to Say (page 98) by Rabbi Dovid Goldwasser, year 1998 CE

    _____________________________________________________
    Hakhel Community Awareness Bulletin for Erev Tisha BeAv 2006:

    “We have been in exile far too long,
    and the longer we are here, he worse off we are.

    Exile does not get better with age like a fine wine;
    it becomes rancid like a container of open milk on a hot summer day.”

    _____________________________________________________
    Rabbi Shmuel Dishon (speaking at a Hakhel lecture):

    The greatest Chillul HaShem in the world today is that we are still in exile.

    SOURCE: 5768 Av 5 Hakhel Email Community Awareness Bulletin 2008/08/06

    _____________________________________________________
    If you understand what I said in this message,
    then you are one step closer to understanding that
    Religious Zionism is the true Derech HaTorah of Moshe Rabbeinu
    and Yehoshua his student, and all the Rabbis of the Mishnah.

    Religious Zionism is NOT Avodah Zarah or Kefirah.
    On the contrary, is is ANTI-Zionism which is Avodah Zarah and Kefirah!

    #2372607
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ HaKatan

    You wrote: “…which is also brought down by poskim on the spot there and elsewhere.”

    Which Poskim bring it “on the spot”? Citation please.

    You wrote: we anyways pasken like the oaths, as per all the poskim that bring those as halacha

    which Poskim? Since you claim that “all the Gedolim” agree with the Satmar Rav and the Brisker Rav you should have no problem citing their Halachic works where the 3 oaths are brought.

    You wrote: including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.

    The Rambam writes that the Mishna Torah contains all the Dinim of Torah sh’baal pe. The 3 Oaths are not there. Let that sink in.

    Avi K wrote: Rambam does not pasken them in Mishna Torah. Neither do any of the Rishonim, Shulchan Aruchm Rema, and Achronim. You wrote: You are left with an academic question as to why it’s not in other sefarim too. The Satmar Rav and others addressed that academic question, which is otherwise irrelevant.

    It is not merely an academic question and certainly not irrelevant. Omission from every major Halachic Code From the Rif through the Shulchan Aruch sets Halachic Precedent. To refer to this as academic and irrelevant is, in technical parlance, a big halachic boo boo. Now, it may be that the Satmar Rav addresses this objection. Have you read how he does this? Perhaps you would care to post an executive summary for us simple folk here in the CR?

    #2372608
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Chaim87

    Your ability to remain positive and upbeat throughout all this is truly admirable.

    @ somejew

    You wrote: (to Avi K) Yes you were just kofer in “Kol HaTorah Keelo”. You should take back your words and do tshiva

    And you should learn how to read and understand what people are writing. Maybe start by identifying the subject and predicate in Avi K’s proposition. Maybe he should have written it in Yiddish for you.

    #2372609
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Bottom line –
    To say that 3 shevuot is kove’a lehalacha nowadays – is a canard , that is not heresy.
    Not heresy at all
    This happens to be the opinion of AVNEI NEZER , not any less of an authority in halacha than R yoel Tajtelbaum.

    His words [end of helek yoreh dei’ah] are easily understood by any seasoned talmud scholar , provided that he reads his words a few times and tries to understand the avnei nezers intention.

    #2372611

    HaKatan refers to specific sources arguing against r Soloveitchik. How do they argue? Do they use the same terms as you or do they simply argue with the viewpoint? And I hope you are using moderate sources that I am interested in. We are already established that there are extreme views on both sides that fully reject the opposite view. The question is that what is the position of the moderates, how do they think of the both extremes.

    Incidently, while researching this issue, I saw a reference that r Aaron Soloveitchik wrote after his brother’s petirah in response to what he saw as disrespectful article about him. Does anyone have this article? Not sure whether it is in English or Yiddish. This would be a source that both sides could respect, even if not totally objective.

    #2372613
    HaKatan
    Participant

    somejewiknow:
    Rav Shach would be one. He wrote that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik wrote “mamash divrei kefirah ad kidei hishtomemus liMareh haAyin”. He further stated that these were things typically forbidden to write, but that he (Rav Shach) was writing (i.e., repeating) them to show how terrible “chochmas chitzoniyus” causes “siluf viYerida biDaas Torah”. Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”, while on that topic.

    Chaim:
    You mistake loyalty to Torah with “arrogance” and “bullying”. Once more, go take all the Torah sources to Rizhin and whomever else you want, and ask them to reconcile your interpretations and stories with those. You obviously won’t do that because your mind is already made up. That’s your business.

    Also, I quoted multiple sources, unlike you who quoted your stories and factually irrelevant random works, like EHS which is anyways not a serious work due to its circumstances but anyways discussed only settling in E”Y but not Zionism and its political “State” and its wars, etc. So, if anyone is full of hot air, it is not I.

    #2372627
    yankel berel
    Participant

    This is clear
    Zionism was/is/remains a sakana for yahadut.
    Most Zionists were heretics.
    Most Zionists were choteh umachti et harabim.

    But this is equally clear
    There is nothing in Zionism perse that is heretical.
    There is no inherent forced contradiction to be found in Zionism against any of the 13 ikarei emuna.
    Even if [!] one holds the 3 shavuot as binding lehalacha nowadays, [which is definitely debatable] even so, we can state with confidence that there is no inherent contradiction between Zionism and any of the 13 ikarim.

    After so many years of speaking to satmar talmidei hahamim, I have not heard even one [!] clear proof that Zionism inherently has to be apikorsut.
    .

    #2372628
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Karyane de’igrata Vol 1 , clearly states that athaltah de geoula ,while wrong, is not heresy.
    Thats enough.

    #2372667
    ZSK
    Participant

    So apparently Avi is the one person who can get succesfully get on HaKatan’s nerves enough to provoke some kind of real response.

    HaKatan –

    “The Satmar Rav and others (conveniently) dismiss all your non-points.”

    Again, we have a Mesorah that does not require us to listen to Satmar and those others you mention, starting *at the minimum* from Reish Lakish/Rabbi Zeira to Rambam, to Chibat Tzion in Volozhin, to the Mizrachi movement + Rav Kook (and his many illustrious contemporaries, including Ruzhin Chassidus) and finally to Yeshivot Hesder + Mechinot today. Grow up and deal with it.
    Your declaring things “non-points” is nothing more than you agggressively saying “Nuh-uh!”. And calling everything “pathetic” does not make it so.

    To respond to your idiocy:

    1. Still wrong. If you read ArRisaala Al-Yemeniyya in the original Arabic, *which you very clearly have not*, the oaths are clearly stated as being metaphorical. The Arabic phrase used, “wujjhat mithal” (“Al derech mashal” in Hakham Qafih’s translation to Hebrew), translates as “a parable”. We don’t issue Pesak Halacha based on Aggada, parables, etc. Aggada is taken at face value, it is not used in Pesak Halacha. This is a fundamental princple not up for debate, and it is a critical error in VaYoel Moshe and in your position. I will point out that neither you nor any other AntiZ have made any material attempt to counter this at any point in time, which means you’re unable to answer it.

    2. Prove it. The texts say otherwise, Mr. “You need to write a Sefer to be acceptable”. This is one Sefer that isn’t Zionist in nature in the slightest, yet gives tacit support to your opponents.

    3. See #1. ArRisaala Al-Yemeniyya was primarily meant to give Yahadut Teiman strength to carry on in the face of threats and pressure against their community, especialy in the face of a false moshiach. It’s a tool in addition to knowing how to engage in Kalaam (look it up, I’m not getting into the subject here). Most of it deals with not engaging in “Keitzism” – while not a Halachik issue, it is something Chazal highly discouraged and condemned. The only Halachik issue contained in ArRisaala Al-Yemeniyya is the subject of false prophets. None of this has anything to do with RZ, unless you’re accusing the RZ community of being false prophets and of dechikas haKeitz (you are), which is not the case. So your argument falls flat once again. אין טעם ואין ריח.

    4. Yes, the nations did. This is obvious. You apparently don’t comprehend that the massive wave of Aliyah post-Holocaust was because there wasn’t anywhere else to go. If there was “Aliyah BaChoma”, it’s very clear the nations of the world – minus the Arab League and possibly England – didn’t have much of an issue with a Jewish state. And again, see #1 about Aggada.

    5. So unwritten statements from your side are valid, but unwritten and written statements by the Avnei Nezer and Rav Meir Simcha regarding the subject don’t count? Hypocrite much?

    6. Nice ad hominem. Now attempt to refute the argument in a material manner. Simply declaring Rabbi Soloveitchk “beyond ignorant”, claiming “real b’nei Torah know it’s nonsense” and “Rabbi X debunked it” are not material arguments. You haven’t explained why. You haven’t presented us with a quote from a Sefer of any kind. You’re just making statements without backing them up. On top of that, your argument fails when your source is the literal face on Neturei Karta’s website.

    “Zionism is factually against Judaism and the Torah, and no amount of “Religious Zionist” propaganda will make it even remotely okay, and there are no source they can bring, as the OP noted.”
    You still have yet to make a material argument as to why this is so. You’re just continuing to dodge the questions presented to you.


    @somejewiknow
    – The term canard is obviously referring to your and HaKatan’s accusation that the RZ community is heretical. “3 oaths” is clearly short hand for this accusation, since it is the argument you and HaKatan continue to resort to, despite being repeatedly questioned about such.
    You do Teshuva first. And you know exactly why and for what.

    #2372698
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    I did that and went to rizhyin. They told me its not a story its mesora. True torah is MESORA and psak. Mesora is not open for interpertation nd not a story. Stop lying and calling it a story.

    Since I did my job, I now dare you to go to Satmar and ask them what they say about Rizhyin. You won’t bec you are a coward. (You know they will say Rizyin hled like that but its not our mesora. That’s fine)

    #2372700
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    “And he [Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz] expressed
    amazement that anyone who considered himself a good Jew
    could possibly go seven days without thinking of some way
    in which he could improve the lot of settlers
    in Eretz Yisrael or otherwise improve the Land.”

    SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
    the architect of Torah in America (chapter 25, page 322) by Yonoson Rosenblum
    for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
    ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

    __________________________________________
    Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah
    and became principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas in year 1921 CE.

    His career in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas lasted 25 years.
    He was known as “the premier architect of Torah in American history.”

    He left this world in 1948 CE at the age of 62 years.

    __________________________________________
    PERSONAL COMMENT:

    If you read the quote shown above carefully,
    you will understand that Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz
    (known as: “the premier architect of Torah in American history”)
    wanted ALL JEWS to help the settlers in Eretz Yisrael,
    even though those settlers were SECULAR ZIONISTS!!!

    #2372713
    ZSK
    Participant

    HaKatan

    You wrote:
    “Rav Shach would be one. He wrote that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik wrote “mamash divrei kefirah ad kidei hishtomemus liMareh haAyin”. He further stated that these were things typically forbidden to write, but that he (Rav Shach) was writing (i.e., repeating) them to show how terrible “chochmas chitzoniyus” causes “siluf viYerida biDaas Torah”. Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”, while on that topic.”

    You are aware of what an ideological dispute is? Rav Kotler also said the time he spent learning with Rav Solovitchik was “Kodesh Kodashim”.
    This is same sort of thing when either Rav Shach or Rav Eliyashiv panned a Charedi Yeshiva in Moshav Matityahu, but when confronted about the condemnation said he was repesenting the mainstream Charedi approach, but that the Yeshiva should still continue to exist.

    And this is irrelevant to the discussion, which is about RZ and your allegations that it is heresy. So try again.

    #2372776
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ YB

    You wrote: “This is clear
    Zionism was/is/remains a sakana for yahadut.”
    Most Zionists were heretics.
    Most Zionists were choteh umachti et harabim.”

    For this to be CLEAR you would have to differentiate between S”Z and R”Z and qualify that you are referring to S”Z.
    Otherwise please explain: how does following the hadracha and psakim of R”Z Rebbonim constitute a sakana for Yahadus? If you where machria like the Gedolim who reject R”Z what criteria did you use? What criteria should the rest of us use? Given the thoughtfulness of your posts in general I am confident it’s something better then “my Rabbi is bigger then your Rabbi and everybody should recognize that, duh).

    #2372787
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Avi K and ZSK

    Can you gents unpack for me how what Reish Lakish said in Yoma 9B is the opposite of the 3 oaths?

    #2372850
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Dear Non Political,

    When you say S”Z, some people might not understand that means Secular Zionism.

    When you say R”Z, some people might not understand that means Religious Zionism.

    I am not attacking you, I am just trying to help.

    #2372874
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    If I remember correctly, our great and holy and perfect Tanach has 24 books.

    The 6th book of Tanach, which starts after the death of Moshe Rabbeinu,
    is mostly about the Jewish conquest of Eretz Yisrael. This is Sefer Yehoshua.

    In other words, an entire book of Tanach is dedicated to
    the Jewish conquest of Eretz Yisrael. WOW!!

    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Kashruth
    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Shabbos.
    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Tefillah.
    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Tznius.
    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Tzitsis.
    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Shaatnez.
    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Shmirat HaLashon.
    There is no book of Tanach that is entirely dedicated to Shmirat HaEinayaim.

    But there is an entire book of Tanach is dedicated to
    the Jewish conquest of Eretz Yisrael: Sefer Yehoshua.

    In Sefer Yehoshua, chapter 13, verse 1,
    G*D rebukes Yehoshua for not conquering 100% of Eretz Yisrael.

    _____________________________________________________
    If you understand what I said in this message,
    then you are one step closer to understanding that
    Religious Zionism is the true Derech HaTorah of Moshe Rabbeinu
    and Yehoshua his student, and all the Rabbis of the Mishnah.

    Religious Zionism is NOT Avodah Zarah or Kefirah.
    On the contrary, it is ANTI-Zionism which is Avodah Zarah and Kefirah!

    #2372911
    ujm
    Participant

    בשו”ת דברי יואל סימן קלא

    ב”ה
    קול נהי נשמע בציון צעקת בני ישראל היראים וחרדים בעיר ה’ שמה והביד”צ שבירושלים עיה”ק ת”ו ובאשם הרב הגאון הצדיק זקן וקנה חכמה כקש”ת מוה”ר יוסף חיים זאננענפעלד שלי”א האבדק”ק, מבקשים אותנו להיות להם לעזרה בצרה, ותעל זעקתם את פני ה’ איך המחבלים כרמים כרם ה’ צבאות המה המעמידים צלם בהיכל ה’ ונספחו על בית יעקב לספחת ולבהרת, אשר כמהו לא נהיתה צרעת ממארת, לצודד נפשות להשקותם מים הרעים המאררים הוא המינות והכפירה ר”ל עד שבעוה”ר נתקיים בהם היו צרי’ לראש, איש צר ואויב לדת תורתינו הקדושה ולעיקרי האמונה דרך קשתו כאויב להפר ברית עולם, הנקוב בשם אברהם יצחק קוק, הוא הגבר אשר החזיק והרחיב בארה”ק גבול הטומאה ר”ל, היא העדה הרעה המכנים עצמם בשם ציונים, אשר הן המה בעתים הללו האבני נגף לבית ישראל ומחריבים ארה”ק וכל הארצות בכלל, האומרים ערו ערו עד היסוד בה הוא קיום תוה”ק והאמונה המסורה לנו, שהוא היסוד לקיום כל ישראל בכלל ובפרט, ומבלעדי זאת הוסיף פשעים על פשעים, להדפיס בספריו הטמאים, גלויים וידועים, דברי מינות וכפירה, בעזות מצח וחוצפה יתירה, את ה’ הוא מגדף ביד רמה, אשר ל א נראה ולא נשמע כזאת מימים ימימה, תסמר שערות אנוש ותצילנה שתי אזני כל שומע, הנה ארסו ארס ברזל להיות בוטה כמדקרות חרב להסית ולהדיח פרחי שושנה, והרב מדבריו המדאיבים לב כל מאמין בה’ מועתקים בקונטרס קול גדול הנדפס בירושלים ובמכתבו של כבוד הרב הגאון המפורסם האבדק”ק סאטמאר שליט”א (הרב יהודא גרינוואלד-שו”ת זכרון יהודא), אבל כאשר הי’ לנגדי החיבורי עצבים שלו ראיתי כי עוד הרבה יותר ממה שהעתיקו הם נמצאים בחיבוריו, מלאים על כל גדותיו דברי מינות וכפירה, מאוד נורא, וילאה לב כל מאמין בה’ להעתיק רוב דברי טומאה כאלו אוי לעינים שכך רואות, השי”ת ירחם במהרה, וינקום נקמתו ונקמת עמו בנ”י ברוח סער וגבורה.

    והנה אך למותר להאריך בהלכה זו שהוראתו אסורה, כי אף מי שאינו מין וכופר אלא שמחלל ה’ ומחטיא את הרבים בשאר עבירות, אסור לשמוע הוראה מפיו, ובשו”ע סימן רמ”ג סעיף ג’ דת”ח המזלזל במצות ואין בו יראת שמים הרי הוא כקל שבציבור, והביא על זה בברכי יוסף שם דכל ת”ח שיש בידו חילול ה’ אסור לשמוע ממנו דברי תורה ולסמוך על הוראתו יעיי”ש בשיו”ב, וע”ע בשו”ת בית שלמה יו”ד ח”ב סימן ק”א דאף דאיתא בירושלמי (מועד קטן פרק ג’ הלכה א’) זקן שאירע בו דבר אין מורידין אותו מגדלתו, מכל מקום אם החטיא את הרבים הוי כירבעם בן נבט ופשיטא דמורידין אותו מגדולתו יעיי”ש, ובמינים ואפיקורסים, כבר כתב החת”ס בחו”מ סימן קס”ב, דכיון שאסור לקרב אל פתח ביתו וכל באיה לא ישובון ולא ישיגון אורחות חיים, מכש”כ שאסור ליקח תורה מפיו יעיי”ש.

    והנה נחזי אנן בגמרא גיטין פרק השולח דף מ”ה, ספר תורה שכתבו מין ישרף כתבו עכו”ם יגנז, ובשבת דף קט”ז אמר ר’ טרפון שאם יבואו לידי שאני אשרוף אותם ואת האזכרות שבהן, א”ר ישמעאל ק”ו ומה לעשות שלום בין איש לאשתו אמרה תורה שמי שנכתב בקדושה ימחה על המים, הללו שמטילין איבה וקנאה ותחרות בין ישראל לאביהן שבשמים עאכו”כ, ועליהם אמר דוד הלא משנאיך ה’ אשנא ובתקוממיך אתקוטט תכלית שנאה שנאתים לאויבים היו לי, ולשון הרמב”ם ז”ל בפ”ו מהלכות יסודי התורה הלכה ח’, אפיקורס ישראל שכתב ס”ת שורפין אותו עם האזכרות שבו כדי שלא להניח שם לאפיקורסים ולא למעשיהם יעיי”ש.

    הנה כ”כ החמירו בספר תורה שכתבו מין למחוק את ה’ יותר מבכתבו עכו”ם משום שלא להניח שם לאפיקורסים, אף שבספר תורה לא העתיק אלא אותיות התורה והאזכרות ולא חידש שם שום דבר מדעתו, ואך בשביל מחשבתו זרה שהיא ממקור מים הרעים אף שאינה ניכרת מתוך מעשיו, החמירו שלא להניח שם לפעלותיו, ומכל שכן שאסור להניח לו שם ושארית להיות לו איזה התמנות בהוראה ותורה, שיוכל להיות חותר חתירה, לאמשוכי אבתרי’ בדעה נפסדה וזרה, מרה כלענה ר”ל.

    ויש כת צבועים המחפים על המינים והאפיקורסים באמרם שאין להתקוטט כי גדול השלום, ואם אין שלום אין כלום, כהנה וכהנה דברי הבלים, אבל התנא ר”י מכחישם בלמדו החיוב לאבד כח המינים מהא שציותה התוה”ק למחוק את ה’ עבור הטלת השלום כי הן המה המטילים איבה ותחרות, וזהו השלום שבישראל לאבד כח המינים ויהי’ אחריתם להכרית.

    ובגמרא ברכות דף כ”ט, שמעון הפקולי הסדיר י”ח ביבנה, אמר ר”ג כלום יש אדם שיודע לתקן ברכת הצדוקים, עמד שמואל הקטן ותיקנה, לשנה אחרת שכחה והשקיף בה שתים ושלש שעות ולא העלוהו, והקשו אמאי לא העלוהו והאר”י טעה בכל הברכות אין מעלין אותו בברכת הצדוקים מעלין אותו חיישינן שמא מין הוא, שאני שמואל הקטן דאיהו תיקנה, וניחוש דלמא הדר בי’ ואף צדיק מעיקרא דלמא הדר בי’ כו’ שאני שמואל הקטן דאתחיל בה [ודעת הר”י שם דמה שאמרו מסלקין אותו בטעה בברכת המינין הכוונה שמסלקין אותו לגמרי שלא יהא עוד ש”ץ לעולם. והמג”א בסימן קכ”ו מצדד שאין מסלקין אותו מלהיות עוד ש”ץ בשביל פ”א, וביאר שם במחצית השקל שזה דעת החולקין על הר”י ז”ל שאין הכוונה בש”ס שמסלקין אותו לולם אלא לפי שעה. ועל כל פנים מדכתב המג”א בזה שאין מסלקין אותו בסביל פ”א אם כן נראה דאם אירע לו כן יותר מפ”א כילי עלמא מודי שמעבירין אותו שלא להיות עוד ש”ס לעולם, אף בזמנו של המג”א שכתב שם שלא הי’ אז מינים מצויים, ופלוגתתן בזה סובב על דברי הש”ס דמיירי בפעם הראשונה כעובדא דשמואל הקטן.

    והנה באמת כללא הוא שאין מוציאין שום אדם מחזקת כשרות כל כמה דאפשר לדונו לכף זכות שלא הי’ אלא טעות ושגיאה, ואף בטבח שהוציא טריפות מתחת ידו שמבואר בשו”ע יו”ד בימן קי”ט סעיף י”ז שאין לו התנצלות לומר שוגג הייתי, מבואר הטעם בתשו’ הרשב”א סימן כ’ (ששם מקור דין זה) שא”א לומר בו מיטעי טעה כי הטריפות ידועים הם ואם לא נודעו לזה אין ראוי למנותו טבח ולסמוך עליו כלל, וכן זה כתב הרא”ש ז”ל בתשו’ כלל כ’ (דין כ”ט), ואעפי”כ הביא ע”ז הש”ך שם בס”ק ל”ג דברי המהרי”ו דבאדם דידוע שהוא י”ש ומדקדק במעשיו עדיין אמרינן בי’ דודאי משגה הוא ולא חיישינן דלמא הדר בי’, וכאן בברכת המינים המוזכר בש”ס דודאי אפשר למימר בי’ שטעה דכן הי’ האמת בשמואל הקטן שהי’ טעות, ועיי”ש בפנ”י שביאר ענין הטעות בזה, ובשאר ברכות ממתינן לי’ באמת עד שיזכור, ובברכת המינים מבואר שם ברשב”א וטוש”ע בסי’ הנ”ל שמסלקין אותו מיד ואין ממתינין לו כלל להזכירו, ולמה נוציא אדם כשר מחזקתו להכלימו ולסלקו אם אפשר לומר שטעה ואין בו צד מינות כלל, בפרט בצדיק גמור כשמואל הקטן ובעצמו תיקן ברכת המינים ואילו לא היה מתחיל בה אז היו מסלקין אותו והיו חושדין אותו דלמא הדר בי’ וח”ו מין הוא, ולדעת הר”י הי’ מסולק לעולם בשביל פעם הראשונה תיכף ומיד, וע”כ שהחמירו יותר בחששא דמינות מבשאר עבירות אף בספיקא נגד חזקה דמעיקרא ושאני מינות דמשכא וחמור טובא].

    ועכ”פ כיון שמבואר בגמרא ושו”ע דרק בשביל שמונע עצמו מלקלל את המינים ואף שיוכל להיות שאינו אלא טעות מ”מ מסלקין אותו, א”כ כש”כ מי שמגלה דעתו בפי’ שאינו רוצה לקללם באופן שאין להסתפק בו שמא שכח וטעה, וק”ו במי שדרכו עוד לשבחם ולחזקם שהדבר ברור שצריך לסלו מכל דבר שבקדושה, ואצ”ל שלא יהי’ רב ומורה בישראל.

    וא”כ אותו האיש הנזכר לעיל שזה דרכו לחזק ולרומם הציונים החלוצים הכופרים באלקי ישראל בפרהסיא ובפומבי, זה בלבד מספיק לבירור ההלכה שהחיוב לסלקו ולהרחיקו מכל בית ישראל, וק”ו אחרי שבחיבוריו האלילים, עוד הרבה גילולים, בר”ה וברה”י יחידו של עולם, והראה לדעת, דכל שכן דפקר טפי בכל מיני מראות נגעים וצרעת, ועל הכלל כולו יצא, לכפור בתורה שבכתב ובע”פ ובעיקרי האמונה לתת אותם לשמצה, תו אין ספק כי הוראתו וכל דבריו ועניניו טמאים ומטמאים, ואשר ירחיקו ממנו בלב תמים, בעזר אלקי יהיו נקיים, והמתחברים אליו מחמת דוחק ממון, ומשתחוים לאגורת “כסף” תחילת חימוץ “הכסיפו” פניהם לאביהם שבשמים, וסופם לבאר שחת בור ריק אין בו מים, אבל נחשים וקרבים בהם להטות ח”ו לבבות בנ”י מדרך החיים, ר”ל, ואמרו חכז”ל (פסחים דף כ”ה ע”א) בכל מתרפאין חוץ מעצי אשירה, ולדיין שאינו הגון אף מחמת שאר מעשיו רעים שאינם של מינות ואפיקורסות קראו חכמינו ז”ל (סנהדרין דף ז’ ע”ב) אשירה, וקל וחומר בית גאים של מינות וכפירה אמרו חכמינו ז”ל במסכת שבת דף קט”ז שאפילו אדם רודף אחריו להרגו ונחש רץ אחריו להכישו נכנס לבית של עבודה זרה ואינו נכנס לבת יהן של אלו שאלו אין מכירין וכופרין ואלו מכירין וכופרין, וא”כ מוטב להם להיות נמכר לע”ז עצמה ולא למין ואפיקורס, שורש פורה ראש ולענה ואשכלות מרורות, ואשר בה’ ישים מבטחו יאיר אליו נורא תהלות, וכבר נתבאר הדין הלכה ברורה, שמי שאינו רוצה לקלל את המינים בפרהסיא, בהקללה אשר להם ראוי’, אף שהי’ צדיק מעיקרא, שתיקה זו מעידה עליו שבא בחזרה, ונתפס באותה עצה הנבערה, לחבק חיק נכרי’, היא המינות הארורה, השי”ת ירחם לעקרה, לשרשה לבערה, ואל יוסיפו עוד לדאבה, לנפשות בנ”י הנאנחים בלב ורוח נשברה, ונפשם חשקה בתורה, השי”ת יוציאנו מאפילה לאורה.

    ואתם בנ”י היראים והחרדים, חזקו ואמצו, איש את רעהו יעזורו והחלש יאמר גבור אני ללחום מלחמות ה’ להעביר ממשלת זדון מן הארץ ולהסיר האשירה הזאת ממקום הקדוש, והשי”ת יתן לכם רחמים, בלב שרים ומלכים, שלא להשליט עוד שבט הרשע עליכם, עד ישקיף וירא ה’ בענינו, ובמעגלי צדק ינחינו, ומצרה לרוחה יוציאנו, ומתוך חשיכה יאיר עינינו, בישועותו הגדולה לשמחינו, בשמחת ציון וירושלים לעבדו שם בשמחה ולבב טוב.

    א”ד הכותב ונאנח מצפה לרחמי שמים ולישועת כל ישראל במהרה, יום ה’ לס’ וזאת עשו להם וחיו ל”ט למבנ”י תרפ”ז לפ”ק, פק”ק קראלי יצ”ו

    הק’ יואל טייטלבוים

    סימן קלב
    בע”ה, כ”ד אלול יום א’ דסליחות התרצ”ב לפ”ג, פה על הספינה

    כאשר זכיתי ת”ת להיות בירושלים עיה”ק תובב”א ולחבב אה”ק, שאלוני רבים וכן שלמים ע”ד הרב קוק העומד בראש להרחיב גבול הציונים והמזרחים הטמאים והמטמאים ר”ל, אשר לדאבון לבינו הן המה האריכו קיצינו והשרישו שורש פורה ראש ולענה של המינות והכפירה ר”ל באה”ק, וזה איזה שנים אשר ראיתי מכתבים של כבוד ידידיי הרב הגה”צ האבדק”ק סאטמאר ז”ל ( הרב יהודא גרינוואלד-זכרון יהודא) ולהבל”ח הרב הגה”צ האבדק”ק קאשויא שליט”א (הרב שאול בראך-משמרת אלעזר) ועוד משאר גאונים וצדיקים שבמדינות אחרות שחרצו עליו משפטו שאסור ליקח הוראה מפיו וחלילה להתחבר עמו, ומקצתם של מכתבים אלו כבר נדפסו, גם אנכי בעניי כתבתי אז בזה באריכות (ע’ בסי’ הקודם) כאשר הי’ למראה יני חיבורי עצבים שלו המלאים מינות וכפירה ר”ל, וממש בוטה כמדקירות חרב בדברים חדים על ה’ ועל משיחו, ועל זה דוה לב המאמין בהשי”ת ובתורתו הקדושה באופן נורא, אבל עוד גרוע מזה מעשיו הרעים אשר ממשיך לב העם ובני ציון היקרים לרשת המזרחים ובתי ספריהם אשר הן המה המחריבים יסודות אה”ק ומטילים ארס בילדי בני ישראל לחנכם בדרכי המינות ולסור מעיקרי ויס ודי דתוה”ק, ואין להאריך בהם כי כבר נודע אשר מיסוד מים הרעים מקורם ומיום שניתנה תורה לישראל לא הי’ יסוד מינות כאלה אשר הדיחו אלפים נפשות מישראל לכפור בה’ ובתורתו הקדושה, ולא יסתפק בזה לב אמת אשר העומד בצידם להרחיב גבולם גרוע מהם.

    ומבואר…(הענין מבואר בסיעף הנ”ל)

    עכ”פ אנו רואים החומרא העצומה שהחמירו חכמינו ז”ל בזה, דמי ששותק מלקלל את המינים אף שאפשר לדונו גם לכף זכות מ”מ לא יועילו לו כל צדקותיו ומסלקין אותו ברבים למען לא ימשכו אחריו בית ישראל, וק”ו בימי שמשבח ומרומם אותם וממשיך רבים מהעם אחר דעת המינים המפורסמים ר”ל, שחלילה להתחבר עמו ולשמוע הוראה מפיו לא דבר ולא חצי דבר.

    ובעו”ה הן רבים עתה הנמשכים אחריו ונגררים אבתרי’, אבל אף אם יתקבצו כל הרוחות שבעולם לא יוכלו לזוז אות אחת מהתוה”ק ומה שהוא ברור מדברי חכמינו ז”ל והפוסקים, ובאמת הרבה יותר ממה שכתבתי כאן יש בזה בדברי ש”ס ופוסקים, אך בעו”ה בעקבא דמשיחא הנסיונות מרובים המסמים את הענים והרבה סיבות בזה המטעים לב העם שא”א לפורטם, ומצורף לזה נסיון העוני המעברת על דעת קונו כמ”ש חכז”ל (עירובין דף מ”א ע”ב), אבל האיש הנלבב יעמוד באמונתו ויציל נפשו מדרך המביא לבאר שחת ר”ל, והי’ כל הנשאר בציון ובירושלים אותם אשר לא כרעו לבעל המינות והכפירה ר”ל, השי”ת יהי’ בעזרם ויצילם מכל הקמים עליהם, ויחזקם ויאמצם כי יתן את רוחו בהם, בשובו את שבותם לעיניהם, לראות בשמחתן של כל ישראל אחיהם.

    א”ד הכו”ח המצפה לרחמי שמים, להתהלך לפני ה’ בארצות החיים, להאיר עינים, בתורת אלקים חיים, ונזכה במהרה לראות בשמחת ציון וירושלים

    הק’ יואל טייטלבוים

    #2372980
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @ujm
    Thnaks for sharing. the holy Satmar reba zya wrote good teshuvas but he was controversial and many disputed him.

    Our mesora is that there is an answer to all of it. Mesora & PSAK is stronger than what it says in a sefer that’s walys up for interpretation. Mesora is the purest form of torah Our mesora is that zionsim is al pi torah

    #2372985
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    UJM has given us a long quote from Sefer Divrei Yoel.

    Would someone please volunteer to tell us all:

    In what year did the Satmar Rebbe write Sefer Divrei Yoel?
    _________________________________________________________

    The best publication date I could get is 1982 CE.
    which was 3 years after his death in 1979 CE.

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