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In a recent thread here about the heresy called Zionism, I claim that there is no known torah (i.e. published) response to the otherwise unanimous stance amongst Gedolim that Zionism is heresy and fully incompatible with Torah Judaism. In other words, there is no “other shita” and the antizionism amongst religious Jews has no legitimate detractors.
In response to some questions, I wrote the following (edited) and would like to here the CR feedback:
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Jews are obligated to keep that Torah. Not because it was taught by a specific person, rather because that is what Hashem told us to do at Sinai. Now, there is much to add about the obligation to listen to certain established authorities, most obviously Moshe Rebaini. So too shas and poskim. But, any Jewish person would agree that the authority of those authorities is specifically because they are teaching the Torah that G-d gave us at Sinai.
Regarding the specific authority of the Satmar Rebbe and his halacha sefer Vayoel Moshe. There are two parts to that conversation: 1) the authority of the previously established Torah he mentions and 2) the authority of his own established expertise and/or influence. As outlined in Shulcha Aroch, a “Gadol” is someone who is greater in expertise and/or influence (students). A “Gadol Hador” would be someone who is the top-tier in his generation as per that measure. Again, this is not me, this is Shulchan Aruch.
While there is indeed an argument to be made that the Satmar Rebbe has significant expertise and influence and would be considered the “greatest in his generation” by either of those measures. I am not focus here on that, if only because it is not a necessary point to the core of the argument. Additionally, by framing this conversation that is really about Judaism vs clear heresy as a conversation about the Satmar Rebbe dishonestly turns it into an argument over shitas or schools or whatever.
The sefer Vayoel Moshe is explicitly a halachik sefer that was written (as per the author) for all of klal yisroel. That being said, if we ignore the authority of the author, we are still obligated to the sources he brings and perhaps obligated in the authors conclusions.
It goes without saying that the Satmar Rebbe didn’t say anything novel ,neither in his sources nor in his conclusions, as there is much documentation of his points in earlier works by others. However, what he did (attempt to) do was distill the halachik axioms and apply them to the post ’48 reality of zionist heresy in the form of a self-procaimed “Jewish”(sic) state. In case there was any ambiguity as time went on, the Satmar Rebbe again published a follow up “Al Hageila. val HaTemira” in ’68, strengthening the Torah and halacha in light of the heretics and their violence.
The length of Vayoel Moshe is in part to the authors constant self questioning of his sources and conclusions as he asks many of the common challanges to what was written before him. He spends most of the sefer “second-guessing” each step. I have asked multiple times for any meaningful Torah response to the halachik conlusions of Vayoel Moshe. I have not received one from anyone. To be clear, I would expect such a resource to have read and dealt with the pilpul of Vayoel Moshe both because of the authors lifelong expertise in the subject as well as to produce a meaningful work. What I mean to say is that if someone says “Jews are not bound by the shevios because the non-jews broke theirs”, they would need to at least address the clear multiple responses to that which are in Vayoel Moshe. I suppose, I could compile an incredible pro-heresy (zionist) “sefer” by just compiling all of the Satmar Rebbe’s kashas, and not include his answers, but that would be very dishonest and hollow.
somejewiknow:
Of course, there is no actual dissent. But many people mistakenly think there is because of a number of factors, including but not limited to.
1. Zionist propaganda is overwhelming, and causes people to be confused about even basics of the Torah.
2. Certain halachic positions of the Satmar Rav, like not visiting the Kosel and not voting in Israeli elections (by Israeli citizens, of course) are, for unknown reasons, not held by other gedolim.
3. Many schools are “non-Zionist”, at least to some extent, and therefore simply do not teach about the heresy and idolatry of Zionism.The above helps give rise to the pathetically false meme that anti-Zionism is strange and only “Satmar” (not to mention Brisk and others).
May Hashem have mercy on all His children and remove all the idols from this Earth with the coming of Mashiach BB”A.
As it happens, I am not a Zionist by any stretch of the imagination (FWIW, Rav Hirsch’s position is the one which resonates with me on this and nearly all Hashkafic issues).
Nevertheless, the arrogance of your opening paragraph undermines any value the rest of your post might have.
It’s fine to take a firm position. More than fine, it’s actually probably what you ought to do. But the assertion that anyone who disagrees with your preferred shita has no leg to stand on exposes a shallowness and ignorance rather than strength of conviction.
Do you then deny that great Talmidei Chachamim and Gedolim disagreed with the Satmar Rav on the issue of Zionism? Is this because: a) You are simply unaware of who actually held that way, or b) You don’t recognize them as Talmidei Chachamim and Gedolim?
If it’s a, then go educate yourself; if it’s b, you are really a fool.
I’m not going to argue about Zionism itself. Anti-Zionists rarely define what that is anyway. And when they do they never define it the same way those who consider themselves t be Zionists do. I will say this however. There was a time in my life that I had a Friday seder in V’Yoel Moshe. I read more than my share of anti-Zionists literature. Even assuming V’Yoel Moshe was the ultimate Torah authority on this issue. Even assuming the anti-Zionist version of history was true (I believe neither of those) Extreme anti-Zionism today is a movement. Not just an haskafa. And that movement has a lot of poison in it and destroyed many of its followers. And it’s followers are frequently the aggressors, not the victims when it comes to dealing with “Zionists” And that movement has a lot of fault for the CURRENT hostility to the frum world in EY. And that movement has NEVER accomplished anything in bringing people closer to Hashem and Torah. Etc.etc.etc. That is why I’m so disillusioned from that movement
somejeweiknow: You are most correct (there are other positions taken by Gedolim). However, the Zionist machine has completely dominated the discussion for so long that Zionism has even influenced the Chareidi world. It has become assur to say anything against Israel/Zionism, et.c
Catch Yourself: Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch was explicitly and expressly anti-Zionist.
@somejewiknow
Its interesting how you feel the need to start a new thread after being overwhelming challenged by so many. But once again I will not stand here and let you make these broad biased untrue statements. I will also continue to say that you don’t get to make the rules or decide who is a gadol, what is halcaha or how a gadol needs to respond to the question. nor if you need a gadol or a tzadik is enough.“As outlined in Shulcha Aroch, a “Gadol” is someone who is greater in expertise and/or influence (students). A “Gadol Hador” would be someone who is the top-tier in his generation as per that measure. Again, this is not me, this is Shulchan Aruch.” The fist half of this tsatement is true. The seocnd half you made up once again. it doesn’t say that gadol is “top tier” in his genertaion. Thats your own made up stuff
Now for the record, there were meaningful resposnes to Vyaol moshe. But you discredit them. Only yours count. Furthermore, there were mnay more reponses, however, due to the nature of Satmar those responses were silenced. i know of warehouses burned down by the mafia. To be clear the reba zya was a very holy man but the times were different. He was fighting all kinds of secular movements both before and then the rebuilding after the war. In his overzealousness to ensure purity in its highest form with no compromises he naturally and via chasdim silenced those that disagree. The enovoirnement built to challenge Satmar made it very difficult. Just ask Kluasneberg and they will tell you. So your goal post that one needs to respond to Vyoal moshe is an unrealistic ask. It was nearly impossible to respond and peoples hands were tied. Its also clear that Vyoel moshe was wirtten with emotions too. Sure it has sources but what you chose as a source vs what you leave out etc. Its not void of emotions.
The above paragraph went with the assumption that one needs to respond to Vyaol Moshe. But here is the truth,
1) Its hashkafa and not Halcha.
2) One need not respond to a hashkafa question.
3) A response need not be in a sefer and need not be with deep torah sources if the person is a gadol. the resposne can be with actions and words like proclaiming in public that its an aschlata degula.
4) Stories itself aren’t the best proof. But if the story is from 100’s of eyewitnesses thats proof. Furthermore, when the same story happens over and over again thats proof. Yet even further, when its not just a story, but clear words said over from a gadol in public o0ver and over again thats like a “psak” even if not backed up. in deep torah. (A story is when a tzadik raises the Israeli flag or cleans the streets of Tel aviv with his hands bec of kedushas haretz. A psak is when a tzadik says this is hschata degula or when he ferrs tish lkvod Yom hatzmut, thats also such a strong story that its a psak with no other interpretation.)
5) Generally to be anti zionist, the only way to do that is to write a sefer and be vocal. how else can you be anti? But to be pro zionist one can do actions in support of that without writing a sefer. So the whole playing filed is different.
5) This leads us to the holy Rizyna rebas. They were the “top teir” in the generation, very knowledgeable in kol hatoprah keula and had 1000’s of chasdim. Ture leaders. They were almost all pro Zionist. Its not just a story here and there. They did actiosn and said psakim over and over again clearlly stating this. its hashkafa and no sefer is required.As I noted many more gedolim whether Rizhyin or others said over that they could have answered all of the Satmtar reba zya arguments and had torah sources to refute them. But they chose not to write a sefer. And i think most people can understand why. I also heard form tzadikim albeit I agree not a gadol that israel is a haschlata degula and segvri kelim. Should we believe somejewiknow or Mosheh wolfson zl?
P.S. I have no proof but I’d bet if the zionsists were not secular the Satmar reba zya wouldn’t have been so vocally against them. That was the real issue. Lastly, the way we know if a hashkafa is al pi torah is to look at future generations. Lets look at shabsi tzvi, reform and conservative movements. How did the movements grow? Are the future generations shomer torah umtizvas? Now look at other disputes such as chasdim vs misngadim. Now look at religous zionists. look how shomer torah umtizvas they are. in some ways more then Satmar.
@ HaKatan and @ Somejew
Maybe you guys can explain the Ramban’s position re: yishuv E”Y in light of the 3 oaths?
Dear “catch yourself” Thank you very much for your true and logical comment
Unfortunately, the fanatical anti-Zionists will totally ignore your truth and logic.
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Dear “smerel” Thank you very much for your true and logical commentUnfortunately, the fanatical anti-Zionists will totally ignore your truth and logic.
UJM said:
“Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch was explicitly and expressly anti-Zionist.”
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MY RESPONSE:Even if this is true (and I do not have any evidence that it is true),
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch died in 1888 of the Common Era.That was around 55 years before the Holocaust in the 1940s.
This is important, because many anti-Zionists became
pro-Zionists after the Holocaust and because of the Holocaust.That was 60 years before the State of Israel in 1948 CE.
That was almost 70 years before the recapture of
Jerusalem and the Kotel in 1967 CE (Baruch HaShem).But please, do not listen to anything that I just said,
just because what I said is based on true facts and valid logic.
Instead, just totally ignore everything I said, just like you always do 🙂@kofier BIkur
To the contrary it’s the other way. In charedi circles brisk and Satmar dominated the system to the point where history of anyone else who disagreed was wipped out.Mr somejewiknow makes his assertion based around Satmar Reba. But part of the reason why they aren’t any pre Charedim who openly disagree is because the Reba in his zealousness to eridacte secularism made it so impossible to debate him. If you did debate him you were a tzyuni and not charedish anymore. So this whole litmus test is insane.
Seeing how other rabbonim and tzadkim acted is enough. Mesorah is Torah. This narrow litfak look that only when it’s in a sefer does it count is very narrow
It’s almost Shabbos but one more note. When the Satmar Reba wrote his sefer the issue was kind of not nogai for many charedim anyhow. In other words the state was here to stay. What’s the point in debating anymore if we should have created a state or not. It’s a done deal. Now there is a new issue, how to deal with its secular influence and shmad which we all hold is totally against our Torah. And so why write a Sefer to debate the Reba on history
Really? You started a new thread because you didn’t like being challenged by several people? Pathetic.
I’m not going to repeat what I said in the other thread other than that I provided you with 2 sources that directly challenge the Satmar Rebbe’s magnum opus, as well at least once source that partially questioned Satmar, and that those are sources you will not seriously consider because of your specific, negative, deleterious, harmful and quite frankly revolting hangups regarding “Zionism” and the Dati Leumi community. You should be ashamed of yourself, but you and your ilk are too arrogant for such.
As for a discussion of Rabbinic authority, well, there’s no point in that discussion because your end position is: (1) the Satmar Rebbe was the absolute “Gadol HaDor” for all Jews (an absolutely preposterous position to take), and (2) it’s okay to slander the Religious Zionist community in any manner you possibly can, because they support a State you would like to see (G-d forbid) nuked off the face of the planet. You won’t have the conversation in good faith.
Let’s be blunt: You’re hoping that within the scope of this new thread you will get a storm of responses from Yeshivish and Chassidish minded people supporting you. We’ll see if that happens.
RAV Moshe Wolfson zt”l was definitely a Gadol.
Non Political:
The Satmar Rav did so decades ago in VaYoel Moshe. Not that the Ramban would any way justify Zionism, regardless.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Exactly zero gedolim became pro-Zionist after the Holocaust (which the Zionist both caused a to which the Zionists contributed, as it happens).
Some, however, did change their tactics in dealing with these wicked heretics. But the Torah never changes, of course.Chaim:
Your assertion that the Satmar Rav was writing only hashkafa and not halacha is not only silly and false, because he was very obviously telling people what you can and cannot do vis a vis the Zionists and its “State”, but that distinction is also a false distinction created by the maskilim; hashkafa is very much part of halacha. Regardless, he clearly wrote both hashkafa and halacha, not just theoretical hashkafa.And, as before, your stories are irrelevant, no matter how many people were there, in part because stories are extremely subjective. A sefer, on the other hand, contains black-and-white instruction and explanation. As mentioned in the other thread, if you wanted to be honest about those stories, you would take the numerous sefarim on the topic to the Rizyners and ask them how your stories about them are reconciled with those writings, and if they actually disagree with those sefarim, which they obviously cannot, as Zionism is indefensible.
ZSK:
There are zero sources that permit the heresy and idolatry that is Zionism. Please attempt to provide those sources here.
Eim HaBanim Semeicha is irrelevant, as noted there, in case that was one of them. Anything from Rabbi Kook is even less relevant, also as noted there.I hear crickets….
Religious Zionism is taught by:
Tanach, Mishnah, Talmud, Midrash and Shulchan Aruch.Therefore, anti-Zionism is heresy and idolatry.
> which the Zionist both caused a to which the Zionists contributed
this could be a source of viciousness. Someone needs to defend how their leaders discouraged their followers to go to EY or US or other countries, so the only way is to blame others. Beltzer Rebbe seemingly was able to face the problem directly.
Chaim87 / 1a2b3c: For Rav Wolfson’s position on Zionism, listen to the recording titled “Rav Moshe Wolfson: Korach was a Zionist”, which audio is available under that title on youtube.
HaKatan, In the 1930s and 1940s, your precious Gedolim
told the all Jews to stay in Europe, and NOT go to America.How many thousands of Jews died needlessly,
because they listened to the advice of the Gedolim?If you truly believe in the Gedolim, then you may not live
in Eretz Yisrael or North America; you must move to
Eastern Europe, and spend the rest of your life living there.If you do not do that, then you are REBELLING against the Gedolim!!
Do not rebel against the Gedolim!! Move to Eastern Europe NOW!!
Who cares if Eastern Europe is deeply involved in a brutal bloody war,
that many people expect to spread to the rest of Eastern Europe?The Gedolim of the 1930s and 1940 want you to live in Eastern Europe,
and their opinion is the ONLY thing that matters!!
THE *** ONLY *** THING THAT MATTERS!!!
THE *** ONLY *** THING THAT MATTERS!!!
NO EXCUSES!!! NO EXCUSES!!! NO EXCUSES!!!
Move to Eastern Europe NOW!!
Move to Eastern Europe NOW!!
The Gedolim of the 1930s and 1940 want you to live in Eastern Europe,
and their opinion is the ONLY thing that matters!!@HaKatan
Nope they aren’t just stories they are psakim. And repeated over and over again. It’s mesora
I asked a rizyna einkel what they do with the Satmar Reba and they told me there are answers.
The Satmar Reba was only hashkafa. Just because I tell me people what you can’t do, doesn’t make that Halacha . That’s not enough to be called Halacha .
Stories that occur over and over again and in front of 100s of people are not subjective at all. You made that up. You don’t get to make up your rules. I think a black and white Sefer is more subjective . You don’t need so face people when you write it . And it always up for interpretation. You make things up. Stories are great proof
R kook and Eim haonim count just as much as the Satmar Reba who was not accepted by many and controversial. You have the nerve to make up what counts and what’s subjective. You don’t get to make up the rules.
Zionism is Torah dikSo I understand:
You’re challenging those of us who disagree with you to produce evidence for our position. But at the same time, you’re going to dictate what evidence is acceptable. And, any evidence we produce is automatically invalid from the start.
That’s arguing in bad faith, and I am not going to engage in that sort of debate with you, somejewiknow or any of the multiple aliases the two of you have created.
You can go look at the very legitimate sources I posted in the other thread. You’re certainly smart enough to do that much.
Hakatan is not into debates
He ignores pointed questions and proofs
He is into mindless repetition of worn cliches
He probably means well but is hopelessly mixed up.Just to be clear stories can be subject to interpretation just like sefarim can be. But when the story happened in public and there is no debate what the intention was then it’s different story (pun intended) and not subject for interpretation. So when a holy Reba fers tisch for Yom hatzmut, that’s what he did . He did that in public and was clear why and when he was doing it. What’s there to interpret? Furthermore, it wasn’t the only time he did that kind of thing. Over and over again across multiple Reba’s they declared Zionism is the Torah way. It’s mesora and psak and not just a story.
The Sefer Hachinuch counts rebuilding the Beis Hamikdash as one of the 613 commandments, he writes the commandment is binding when most of Klal Yisroel lives on their land. Acc. to the official numbers of Jews in the world today we are pretty close if not their already.
The sad reality is that half of the Jewish nation subscribes to liberal secular democracy the other half of observant Jews on one level or another bought into Satmar ideology that wipes the Mitzvos of conquering and settling Eretz Yisroel out of the Torah. It is The Satmar New Testament which replaces the Ten Commandments with the 3 Oaths that are not brought by any traditional halachic authority. There are only a small fraction of Torah true Jews left in the world who still believe in all 613 mitzvos without exception including the Mitzvos of conquering and settling Eretz Yisroel. Shimon and Levi as well as the Chashmonaim today would have to belong to the small fraction who unfortunately are the most hunted today by the Israeli secular government. The Israeli GSS or Shabak has a special “Jewish department” who hunt and persecute anyone suspected of belonging to these true Jews. At one of the Otzma Yehudi rallies Rabbi Dov Lior encouraged the group not to worry about their popularity as also in Yetzias Mizrayim it says וחמושים עלו בני ישראל ממצרים only a small fraction merited to leave as the others were not worthy… By Mechiras Yosef and the Meraglim the Majority were wrong and the minority were right… Avraham Avinu was a Yachid vs many as was Moshe Rabenu, Yosef Hatzadik, Dovid Hamelech, Yirmiyah Hanavi, Yeshaya Hanavi, Mordechai Hatzadik, Matisyahu Kohen Gadol and more… At the end of the day in the Torah we find being afraid to conquer Eretz Yisroel is the sin of the Meraglim, going to conquer when it is not the time is the sin of the Maapilim. What it all depends on is if Hashem is commanding to do it now or not. The fact that we have no system of appointing legitimate Rabbis to a Sanhedrin or some sort of supreme Rabbinical court is the main churban of our times. All we have are way to many groups each claiming they and their Rabbis are the truth and all the others and their Rabbis are invalid.@ Square Root
You wrote: “In the 1930s and 1940s, your precious Gedolim told the all Jews to stay in Europe, and NOT go to America. How many thousands of Jews died needlessly, because they listened to the advice of the Gedolim?
The above statement borders on kfira. It is certainly apikorses.
@ HaKatan and Somejew
Are you claiming that there are no Torah sources for returning to and building up E”Z before Moshiach? This is a very direct question. Please answer clearly.
Here are 5 reasons why one need respond to vyoel Moshe
1) it’s not a Halacha as in Shabbos or gitten. It’s a prohibition based on aggadata which makes irs hashkafa.
2) Only those who banned it had to write a Sefer. That’s because you can’t do action to prove it’s prohibited. But those who feel it’s allowed and al pi Torah, could just do actions that prove it
Note the next 3 are important points
3) The Satmar Reba in his fire for purity created an environment that made it impossible physically to write a Sefer or debate him. It isn’t my place to knock such a holy Jew and it may have been his chasdim, but it was nearly impossible to even try. Ask klausenberg. So this idea why didn’t anyone dispute him is a silly argument. Because it was impossible to dispute him.
4) by the time the Sefer came out, it was really a history debate. It was after 1948 and the state was a done deal. There really was no longer a question whether we should support a state rather it’s if we should cooperate. So why debate history?
5) The secular nature of the state and the rasha Ben gurion yms shmad and evilness anyhow provided a reason to
Oppose the state anyhow. And so at that point would it matter anymore if Zionism is evil. Secularism and especially when it out to shmad the frum is for sure evil. Even Rizhyin agrees to that . And so so why debate the issue if at the end of the day we agree on opposing it for whatever reason.
Here is where #5 makes a difference. What about post Menachim Begaon when the govt started being much more charedi friendly? By then it was the very end of the Reba Zya lifeHearing his criticisms of Zionism, someone once told him
[Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz],
“I too hate the Zionists. They should be cursed.”“Chas v’chalilah (Heaven forbid)!” Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz] interjected.
“To the contrary: They should be blessed, along with all those
who are building up our Holy Land. I only pray that they observe mitzvos.
But chalilah to curse or hate them.
They are tinokos shenish’bu
(people who never received a Jewish education and so were led astray).”SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 16, page 228) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965__________________________________________
Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah
and became principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas in year 1921 CE.His career in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas lasted 25 years.
He was known as “the premier architect of Torah in American history.”
He left this world in 1948 CE at the age of 62 years.
“He [Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz] never tired of telling his students
that that Eretz Yisrael is the natural place for every Jew.
Only there can a Jew flourish to his maximum potential.A Jew’s life outside of Eretz Yisrael inevitably has a truncated, unnatural quality.
He is like a polar bear removed from his Arctic habitat and placed in the Bronx Zoo.”“Any Jew who does not at least dream of going up to Eretz Yisrael,
he said, is surely lacking something in his Yiddishkeit.”SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 25, page 322) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965__________________________________________
Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah
and became principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas in year 1921 CE.His career in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas lasted 25 years.
He was known as “the premier architect of Torah in American history.”
He left this world in 1948 CE at the age of 62 years.
__________________________________________PERSONAL COMMENT:
If you understand the quote shown above,
then you are one step closer to understanding that
Religious Zionism is NOT Avodah Zarah or Kefirah.
On the contrary, it is ANTI-Zionism which is Avodah Zarah and Kefirah!Duvidf:
“the 3 Oaths that are not brought by any traditional halachic authority.”The oaths are brought by many halachic authorities including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman and many others, as the Satmar Rav quotes in his sefarim.
The “Religious Zionist” idolaters don’t like that, and they pathetically try to explain them away, but fail miserably.
Chaim:
“I asked a rizyna einkel what they do with the Satmar Reba and they told me there are answers.”
That is pathetic.
There are numerous other gedolim with published writings on the topic which is what you would need to bring them if you cared to get an honest answer rather than rely on your interpretations of stories.Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities. Period.
AAQ and Square_Root and other Zionists.
The Zionists both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Period. Game over.
Their idolatrous worshipers, even “religious” ones, then have the audacity to blame the gedolim for what is in fact the blame of the Zionists.Rav Elchonon famously wrote then that the letter’s subjects should emigrate from Europe to the US only if they will not be going into an impossible spiritual sakana, like emigrating via YU instead of via Torah VoDaath, for example.
Recall as well that then-Palestine was in great danger of being invaded by the Nazis, which is exactly what (almost) happened (Rommel). So, that is an additional reason why it was not wise to move to Palestine. In fact, the Brisker Rav did so only because he held that the spiritual (not physical) sakana in Europe was a bigger non-starter than was the great physical sakana in then-Palestine.
Rav Hutner wrote about this in the Jewish media decades ago, perhaps in the Jewish Observer.
But Zionist idolaters aren’t interested in truth; they’re interested only in their idol, which has caused death and destruction, both physical and spiritual, to Jews over a century on a scale never before seen in history.
That anyways wasn’t the topic of this post, though. The topic is the lack of any sources for the Zionists’ impossible attempt to insert their idolatry into the Torah.
@HaKatan
They only fail because you decided they don’t count. Yes its what Satmar did too. Anyone who disagreed doesn’t count and isn’t charedi. Thats not how our torah works. You don’t get to make up who counts and who doesn’t and we won’t get intimated by bullies. So to be clear, both R Kook and the Stmar reba counts. So does Eim habonim simcha. Stories that are rooted in clear facts count too. Zionism accoding to many is al pi torah.
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