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Also what do you say to Rav Shlomo Zalman’s sevara, that turning on and off the circuit is no worse then opening and closing a window or door, since it is temporary in nature?
Chacham – to answer your question: Who are these mechalelei shabbos texting? And are they being responded to?
They are regular frum people – I was shocked when some of my friends texted me and sometimes they are answered to by others.
I actually know a Jewish school in Flatbush that many students text on shabbos and the school knows about it. It’s a more modern school. But the school still tries working with them instead of punishing them.
At one point the students all decided not to initiate the text. They would only respond to texts. After shabbos they all came back saying they didn’t text anyone because no one started the text.
I think that really to discuss Electricity on shabbos is a sugya bifnei atzmo. so i will be mekatzer.
I can not find anywhere online that has the lashon of the mechaber and i am not good at typing hebrew so I will in turn quote the aruch hashulchan.
Siman shin yud daled the aruch hashulchan says
???? ??? ???? ?
?? ????? ????? (??? ??? ?? ?????): ‘??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????’, ??? ????? ??????, ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ???
So it is pashut that it is assur medoiraysa to make a keli. The lashon of the chazon ish in oc 50:9 says
??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???????
?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????,
????? ??? ??? .
SO the din of ain boneh bkeilim does not apply to make a keli such as a circut.
And about the reb shlomo zalmans sevara, I do not know the answer and I never really looked into it but lehalacha reb shlomo zalman holds like the chazon ish as he says ?? ? ? ? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???????
?????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????
???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????, ??? ????? ?????
???????? ??? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????
?????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????????? ???? ??
??? ????? ???
although in other places he seems he may argue.
Reb Chaim Ozers shita is the trickiest . The story is that Reb Chaim ozer stood up and said it is assur but never explained why lest someone will come afterward and push away some of his proofs and then be matir it. In 1935/5695 Reb Shlomo zalman in yerushalayim who was in his 20s realized it was time for someone to explain the sugya b’arichus. He published a sefer called Meorei eish with dealt with the sayalah from every tzad and explained why it is assur. in the haskama form reb chaim ozer he says he agrees completely etc. and yufeh kivein sheassur mishum maaveir umechave. it can be found here. Reb Chaim ozer stood up and said it is assur but never explained why lest someone will come afterward and push away some of his proofs and then be matir it. In 1935/5695 an avreich in yerushalayim who was in his 20s realized it was time for someone to explain the sugya b’arichus. He published a sefer called Meorei eish with dealt with the sayalah from every tzad and explained why it is assur
?? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ? ? , ?? ? ?
? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? , ?? ? ? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ? ? , ?? ?? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? , ????? ????.
it can be found here
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8861&st=&pgnum=6
also whoever said this is a grama I advise them to look in meorei eish perek3 ois 7,8 where he brings the gemara in bk that is mechalek between gerama dnizaken and deshabbos demeleches machsheves asruh torah. ayin shum. if you need more mareh mekomos feel free to ask
I just want to clarify about what i meant with the Chayei Adam. The Chayei Adam says that “rov” poskim assur even not ksav ashuris, implying that there are those who are mater it. That’s why i highlighted the word “rov”.
I did not mean to say that he holds that rov poskim hold that ksivah is only ksav ashuris, as that is not so.
Chacham did you look up about boneh not attached to the ground?
What I was saying about boneh, lkulei alma to make a new keli is boneh deoraysah, and the creation of a circut is like a new keli.
But I was mistaken what I wrote to you previously. The Chazon ish continues on saying that besides for being a new keli , it is normally connected to the ground.
So a cell phone which is not connected to the ground, you would just have to say it is boneh because of a new keli, besides for maavir and mesaken mana.
Please, to all of you here who are arguing the minutee of whether or not using the phone to text could be allowed on Shabbos, you’re totally missing the point. Those young people who are doing this are our children, regardless of whether or not they attend the same yeshiva or wear the same type of attire as the little ones within your four walls. They are missing out on the uniqueness and beauty of Shabbos. Don’t look for halachic loopholes to justify their behavior. They need a warm Shabbos and a hug, not these types of arguments which is part of what’s turned them off in the first place! And it’s almost ironic that there’s a group called “Sabbath Manifesto” that seeks to have people turn off their devices and reconnect with other humans for whatever they consider a Sabbath to be.
quark2-
Indeed, Harav Yitzchak Abadi is my rav (I think Chacham figured that out already)! It warmed my heart to see that you quoted him.
yitayningwut
Ok so apperently it was not him who first said the sevara of many dots. Unless one can be mechalek between electronic writing on a screen, and the writing on a soda cap, in regards to this sevara.)
Anyway, maybe you can ask his son, Rav Chaim, who i know is in Lakewood. Possibly he would know about the shitah of his father.
(btw when you mentioned that your Rav is mater silk screen sifrei torah, i pretty much guessed that it was him, because that is something that he is known for 🙂
quark2-
Yup. Iy”h I’ll ask around.
You need to be aware that anyone texting on shabbos didn’t ask a Rav for a heter before….They didn’t think about kesivah etc., only “I wanna text now”. Meaning there’s an essential part of yiddishkeit missing in them, chilul shabbos is a basic that any orthodox kid is supposed to be afraid to violate, if he/she has any yiras shmayim at all. so the problem is not this one point, but much deeper.
NOS: I haven’t read read most of this thread so I may be repeating something said before. Firstly, I don’t know that this is always the case but IMO, its not, “I want to text now”, its “I text 99% of my free time and now since I don’t know of something else to do, I have a need to text.” Not because they have a need to text specifically, but because they have a need to do something. In their book, something means texting. Very sadly, I think Shabbos today is sometimes viewed as something to get through. (But unfortunately that could probably describe a lot of things today.)
Meaning there’s an essential part of yiddishkeit missing in them, chilul shabbos is a basic that any orthodox kid is supposed to be afraid to violate, if he/she has any yiras shmayim at all.
I call it a yetzer hara.
I just read a great article by R Dovid Goldwasser on this issue.
Toward the end of the piece, the rav gives several recommendations: (paraphrasing)
1. reduce texting during the week
2. give away your cell phone for Shabbos (the rav says that he keeps quite a few cells for people over Shabbos & yo”t)
3. make a buddy system where you are accountable and can discuss your efforts and successes
4. learn about the holiness of Shabbos & the halachos.
5. make plans for Shabbos that will keep you busy and not bored
6. if you feel that OCD is involved, get help
“If you would like to take the first step on this journey, you can call me (R Goldwasser) at 718 677-3712 and- thought it’s not my preferred method of communication- I will send you a text of personal chizuk and berachah before Shabbos.”
Hatzlacha to anyone struggling with this issue.
There is no evidence a MO posted this, NO MO Rabbo would permit this
NO MO Rabbo would permit this
There’s only one MO Rabba that I’m familiar with. Why not ask her?
There seems to be one aspect in this entire discussion that no one has touched on. (Or at least all the posts that I have seen so far.)
Other than the issue of producing sparks or electrical impulses. What about the M’lacha (Work/Task) of Koseiv Sh’tei Osiyos. ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????. But, on a practical level. This phenomenon of some youths (Mainly in the MO community) who are texting on Shabbos has Two root causes. 1) Some, in the MO community are hugging the line of what is permitted (on shabbos). And when you are that close to the line, it is very easy to push the envelope, metaphorically; 2) some individuals feel disconnected. And to them observing Shabbos is a restriction or sacrifice. Others, then, are not willing to sacrifice.
koseiv has already been discussed. see my earlier post about it.
Quark 2; An earlier “Posek” (Than R’ Shlomo Zalmen) The “Marsha”g”, R’ Shimon Grunfeld, who lived in Europe around the turn of the previous Century (And who happened to be an expert on the workings of electricity and those electrical devices and appliances that were around at the time)was of the opinion that fire emanating from a light bulb or heating element was not “Eish”, real fire, and anyone completing an electric circuit is not “Chayav” of “Mav’ir” ?????.
Chacham; OK I missed it. My apologies. My escape clause was “All the posts that I’ve seen”.
Shlishi, instead of looking down on your fellow Jews, why not offer some practical advise? Why do you need to continually take cheap shots at the MO world? I understand you don’t agree, but your continues nasty comments have reached a new low…your comments are a constant reminder of why we are in galus and continue to mourn… Thanks for this reminder so close to tishubav.
metrodriver- Was the marshag mattir electricity or he held it was assur for another reason.
I’m gonna admit something. I texted this shabbos. I was so desperately in pain and needed to know that someone was here for me. I know it sounds horrible and I admit that I probably shouldn’t have done it but I don’t think anyone can understand what I was going through which caused me to do it in the first place.
Happiest
No one here is judging you.
Please see the post below and call R Goldwasser (718 677-3712); this rav deals a LOT with ED and texting issues and is an unbelievably warm & caring mentch.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/texting-on-shabbos/page/3#post-282521
happiest –
Is it possible that your reading and constantly seeing the ongoing “TEXTING ON SHABBOS” discussion in the CR unconsciously made it a little bit more possible (or easier or acceptable) in the back of your mind to text this past Shabbos?
When was the last time you ever texted on Shabbos before this?
I think that it’s best if happiest answers these questions to R Goldwasser who deals with her specific issues IMHO
Stamper
I would sincerely hope not as the implications of that are frightening.
am yisrael, thanks for the #. I think I am dealing with the issues by speaking to someone else right now but if I ever need to get in touch with Rabbi Goldwasser as well, I will contact him. Thank you.
stamper, that is definitely not the reason why I texted this shabbos. I needed to text this shabbos for other reasons. They did happen to be important ones. I’m not condoning what I did but I’m pretty sure that if I told a rav what I did and why I did it, they would be ok with it.
Thanks for your concern though:)
Chacham; The Marsha”g was not mattir the free use of electricity on Shabbos. Not by a long stretch. But he held that B’dieved, it is not Mav’ir D’oraisa.????? ???????? He did, however, permit any task to be accomplished on Shabbos with electrical appliances through the effect of “Gramma” ????.. In one Shaila, the correspondent is asking if a crudely rigged timer (They were not made in today’s fashion. Not even as a mechanical timer. Not to speak of the digital timers of today.) is permitted to be used on Shabbos to control lights. He answered in the affirmative. As a consequence (of his opinion that heat and light from electricity is not real fire.) he held that light bulbs can not be used for Shabbos and Chanuka candles.
And Rav Chaim Ozer used to make havdala on an electric bulb to show that it was eish.
Poppa Bar Abba; The majority of Poskim were of the opinion that “B’shas Ha D’chak” (Where there is no other choice available.) electric lights were OK for Ner Shabbos, Havdala and Ner Chanuka.
Happiest, I wish I had something to tell you to make it go away. But sadly I dont. May hashem grant you full recovery
1. The din of gerama- reb shlomo zalman has a big arichus why it is not gerama based on the gemara in bava kama that is mechalek between gerama dnizaken and deshabbos demeleches machsheves asruh torah.
2.For shabbos candles most poskim hold you can use electric lights being that the din is just to have light. Mah sh`ein chanukah most poskim assur using electric lights because there is a din in hadlaka
happiest i really understand u because i fell the same a lot of the time and i would text on shabbus but non of my friends have there phones open so i just dont have whom to text but i really understand u and know the felling of just having to text
jewish22
R Goldwasser (718 677-3712) deals a LOT with ED and texting issues and is an unbelievably warm & caring mentch. In fact, this rav has a collection of cells over Shabbos from people who give it for safekeeping!
I strongly encourage you to call this rav to discuss your challenge without judgment.
I must be living in a different world. My son’s Yeshiva only gives him his cell phone for use over Shabbos.
thanks am yisroel but dont know if im looking for that yet
jewish22
You are quite welcome!
You may want to just speak to him anonymously on the phone (mornings are best if that works for you). He’s softspoken and respectful.
“Mainly in the MO community”
If you think this is true you either have your head in the sand or a bone to pick with “mo”.
An article on OU.org says some figures put it at 50% of mo teens. You don’t seriously believe the numbers are remotely in that ballpark by the ultra, do you?
I dont believe “some figure”.
Please define “ultra”.
I am a close relative of someone who works very closely with these teens at one of the popular organizations that works with such teens. This is not strictly a MO problem.
I dont think its strictly an issue in the MO community but definitely more of an issue than in the ultra- orthodox communities.
There are some yeshivas which do not allow texting capability on students’ cells at all.
At first I thought what a drastic step to take; now I think that it’s such a smart idea.
Texting can become such an addictive behavior, as many of us have seen. MO or otherwise.
Again. Please define “ultra”.
ultra is e.g. Satmar, Torah V’Daas, Mir, Chaim Berlin, Belz, etc.
A yid is a yid is a yid.
No matter which type.
This addiction does not discriminate.
We MUST NOT fail to see the forest for the trees.
the forest is composed of trees
80
The trees comprise the forest, there’s no “klor”ing whether it’s the MO section of the forest or the ultra section of the forest…
Let’s keep the larger picture in mind, which is that there unfortunately is a problem among us with texting on Shabbos for which we need to find a solution, not trying to figure out which sect has more than the other IMHO.
okay, but then the correct metaphor would be
lets not chase after a red herring.
popa wrote that
hee hee
my 2 cents woth..here goes, people do things they shouldnt on shabbos including texting and using technology coz they have little (notice i use little and not non because EVERY yid has a spark that needs to be ingnited) relationship with G-d.
it maybe because they never learned how to have a relationship with human coz if u dont know how to have a relationship with people you dont know how to have a relationship with Hashem, how u supposed to learn? if you are numb to your parents/teachers coz you never had a good relationship with them, you will be numb to Hashem.
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