TEXTING ON SHABBOS

“Well, according to many the reason for the issur of electricity is that it produces a spark. I am pretty sure that when using a device like a laptop computer or cell phone, no spark is produced.

Maybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.

(the spark is produced by flipping a switch and completing a circuit. Cell phones don’t work that way, I think.)”

Bob said to ask a rabbi. Bob, i ask a rabbi a question i have in torah or halacha, not a question i have in electricity. Rabbis aren’t electricians.

I found the question on a website where they have people who are knowledgeble of the subject of electricity answering questions. Here are two answers that i found:

“Electronic switches produce no spark”

and

“1. Light switches actually connects a circuit PHYSICALLY. This can create a spark. You cann test this at night, slowly move a light switch on (try to get it right in the middle). You will see sparks at the switch as it connects the circuit.

2. Modern computers and electronics use an ELECTRONIC circuit to connect the the power, so there is not a physical on/off. When you press the power button a microchip connects the power without a significant spark”

I am not allowed to post the link here, but they are clearly saying that there is no spark in an electronic circuit used in computers and other electronics

Maybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.

What they “feel” is absolutely meaningless. They are mecheleli Shabbos befarhesya, and frankly they may be chayiv misa. Much worse then if they would be eating pork 6 days a week.

a microchip connects the power without a significant spark

“Significant” spark? An “insignificant” spark is also assur.

electricity is assur on shabbos because of boneh lfi the chazon ish in OC 50:9. Other isuurrim discussed in meorei eish from rav shlomo zalman are , tikun manah, maaveir etc.

texting will definitely be also the issur of kkosev. Reb shmuel vosner amongst other poskim mantain that typing on a computer is an issur deoraysah. Ain kan makom lehaarich bazeh

If you want you can add all sorts of other problems that are derabnan including muksteh ( kli shemelachto lissur!) uvdah dchol etc.

There is also no gerama at all in the issur of electricity.

And keep in mind that the people who text on shabbos are not doing it because they can write a teshuvah being mattir it. It is clearly an issur deoraysah which will make these peoples wine yayin nesech.

And being able to be mattir something with sevaros does not always help you. Many of the reformers and conservatives all had long teshuvas exploaining why what they did is muttar.

“Well, according to many the reason for the issur of electricity is that it produces a spark. I am pretty sure that when using a device like a laptop computer or cell phone, no spark is produced.

Maybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.”

MODS, WHERE ARE YOU? Is this Yeshiva World? Can I still let my teens visit the CR?

Hey! No prying personal details. We aren’t telling where we are. -95

I think a lot of quark’s arguments are taken from Hilchos Chol Hamoed, where they make more sense. The Grama, though, just doesn’t fly. By the way, Shvus Leshvus is not a Hetter.

quark2-

I will respond to several things you said, and try to be mekatzer with each response.

Maybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.

A psak halocha decided by someone with the requisite smicha and subject knowledge is what “counts”, not the “feeling” of someone looking to be moreh heter.

Bob said to ask a rabbi. Bob, i ask a rabbi a question i have in torah or halacha, not a question i have in electricity. Rabbis aren’t electricians.

Therefore, Rabbis can’t pasken on monetary issues (they’re not bankers or economists), kashrus (they’re not butchers), and pretty much any other topic.

Electricity’s workings aren’t rocket science. I assume anyone who paskens on these topics makes sure he has the required knowledge before doing so.

“1. Light switches actually connects a circuit PHYSICALLY. This can create a spark. You cann test this at night, slowly move a light switch on (try to get it right in the middle). You will see sparks at the switch as it connects the circuit.

2. Modern computers and electronics use an ELECTRONIC circuit to connect the the power, so there is not a physical on/off. When you press the power button a microchip connects the power without a significant spark”

The person who wrote this doesn’t know as much about electricity and electronics as you may think he does.

I Googled what you posted and read what he wrote.

First of all, it’s a bad idea to force an arc in a light switch. It can actually damage the switch’s contacts because of the heat that can quickly generate.

Second of all, even modern computers use a mechanical switch to power on. That switch then triggers an electronic circuit that keeps the power running. The mechanical switch is low voltage so the spark will be smaller than a 110-volt switch (like the older computers had) would create.

Third of all, I think I saw on that site that fluorescent lighting works with an electric arc. That’s incorrect. There are different types of fluorescent ignitions, but none of them use arcing.

I notice you are focusing on the “spark” portion of the discussion. There are several other halachic issues with electricity on Shabbos.

quark,

You haven’t addressed the issue of use of electricity. There is not one accepted posek who would go along with you.

I will explain more about “maashe ksivah”

For some things, you need a “maaseh ksivah” which means to actually write out the letters. For example, the Halachah of “chuk tochos” that you are probably familiar with.

I think that it is pashut that this is no better than chuk tochos. You are causing a letter to form on a screen, but only by a roundabout way (causing the circuits in the chip in the phone to align in the right way etc.). That is why chuk tochos is not ksivah (letter was formed in roundabout way). This is no better.

Whether or not Shabbos needs a “maaseh ksivah”, like i said, the Ran holds that it doesn’t, but i think that there are those that hold that it does (if not it probably wouldn’t be known in the “yeshiva world” as “the Ran’s chiddush”). But of this i am not certain, as i am not actually learning the sugya at the present time.

About electricity. The reason for the issur of electricity is the matter of much debate. The one that i am most familiar with, is the issue of the spark. I posted something earlier about there not being a spark in devices like cell phones or laptops. I have done some further research into this, and it appears that my first source was mistaken.

Even so, there may be other issues. I don’t really know much about the inner workings of a cell phone. I don’t know when and how the spark is created. In a regular light switch, it happens the instant you flip the switch and complete the circuit. It is possible, from my perspective of relative unfamiliarity with the workings of a phone, that the spark is a grama.

I don’t know if that makes it mutar, but it certainly makes it much less of a chilul shabbos.

I think that the other main shita, besides for those that hold that electricity is derabonon, is that since a light or a fan is attached to the house, by completing the circuit you are doing boneh.

This definitely would not apply to a cell phone, which is not connected to the house (even a connection with a charger i don’t think is a connection for this, because when you turn on the phone you are completing a circuit that is wholly within the phone, and is still not connected to the house. That would be for using the phone while it is plugged into the charger. As for plugging the phone into a charger that is connected to the wall, i don’t know how that circuit works.)

Again, i have never really studied the issue/sugya of electricity on shabbos at length, in a concentrated manner. Those who did would probably be able to find various issues with this comment, whether leheter, or li’issur. But “Kach hie darkah shel torah…”

Correction / clarification to my previous post:

1) Old-fashioned fluorescent lights that use replaceable starters do have an electric arc within the starter module (but not within the bulb itself). I wasn’t aware of this, and just saw it when checking to make sure my facts were correct.

2) The flow of electricity from one end of the bulb to the other is considered an arc. However, this arc doesn’t involve the heat and/or sparking that (AFAIK) cause the halachic equivalent of aish.

I can only try: How does the points you just made in your clarification effect the impressibility of turning on a fluorescent light (either old-fashioned or newer) on Shabbos?

Hacham-

Every keypress and mouse click is physically completing a circuit.

(This time I checked to confirm before posting ?)

There is a different type of keyboard called a “capacitive keyboard”, but you probably don’t have it.

Hacham-

How does the points you just made in your clarification effect the impressibility of turning on a fluorescent light (either old-fashioned or newer) on Shabbos?

The older fluorescent fixture is more likely to be a problem because of the actual spark generated within the starter than a newer fixture, which has a different type of ignition.

My first post, where I said that “there is no arc” in fluorescent lighting needed:

a) Correction – there is a spark within the starter module of older fixtures which require a starter (most people probably don’t even know what a fluorescent starter is).

b) Clarification – the current running thru any fluorescent bulb is called an arc, although it’s not the type of arc associated with actual sparking such as an arc light or short circuit has, and is therefore not the d’oraisa of aish.

(moderator – sorry about the repeated edits)

DaasYachad yes, grama is still assur medarabanan, but there are many nafkeh minos between someone who is mechalal shabbos deoyrayseh or derabanan, and there are also nafkeh minos in regards to the issur.

The reason why a printing press is not kosher for sifrei torah, is because it has the din of chok tuchos. Other problems include that of lishmah and ksidron ( by a sheim hashem). But it is actually a machlokes the shach and the taz about the kashrus of a Megillah made by a printing press. All the achronim pasken that is is assur and look in Mishnas hasofer Perek 28 that says you are mechuyav to put such a megillah in genizah.

On shabbos you are oiver kesivah midoiraysa even without a maaseh kesivah .The poskim do not pasken like that ran

The shitas chazon ish about electricity has no shayachos that it is connected to a house. His shitah can be found in Chazon Ish Orach Chaim Siman 50 ois 9. He says that completing the circut in itself is boneh medoiraysah. It sounds like a big chiddush but when you learn boneh you see it makes a lot of sense. The Minchas yitzchok argues on this chiddussh. For a halachik understanding of the problems with chashmal and the shita of the chazon ish, look in tzitz eliezer 1:20, Sefer Meorei eish 2 vol.(from Reb Shlomo zalman) MInchas Shlomo 1 :11. Rov haposkim agree to the chazon ish and hold that turning on anv electric thing is deoraysah. Reb Shlomo zalman has an arichus about talking into a telephone that is already on if it is assur midrabanan or mideraysah ayin shum Vdok.

About the rabbonims understanding of electricity, look in meorei eish chelek 2 (5770 ed.) perek 13 and MInchas Shlomo 1:9 and 1:10. In both places reb shlomo zalman explains the metzius of the entire inyan before hondling the psak. On the ha’ara on bottom it says that before he began to write about the inyan he spoke to many electricians etc. to understand the metzius completely.

Now about writing on a computer connected to a screen look in Shevet Halevi 6:37 HE says it is assur mideroisah because it is ksav hameskayaim and you need a new peulah to erase. look over there where he assures typing on chol hamoed etc.

People who text on Shabbos are usually the ones who can’t go anywhere without their phone, in other words they’re addicted. They know it’s wrong so they try rationalizing. Unfortunately, I’m one of those people who can’t go anywhere without my phone. I was only mechalel shabbos once 2 years ago. Many of my friends are regular bais yaakov girls who look just like everyone else and they text on shabbos…it’s sad.

R’ Henkin demonstrates that nowadays a mechalel shabbos’s wine is fine.

Which R. Henkin? The godol zt”l or the rabbi in Israel with the same name (and descendant)?

yitayningwut: Your comment implicitly implies that Harav Shlomo Zalman would matir talking on a telephone on Shabbos, but just wouldn’t “openly” pasken so. Whatever “openly” means. Are you sure you meant that?

There is a different type of keyboard called a “capacitive keyboard”, but you probably don’t have it.

I can only try:

IF this type of keyboard — that doesn’t involve circuits when pressed — were used on Shabbos (without typing – just using the arrow keys and <Enter>), what issur (if any) would transpire that would prevent the usage of a computer (that was already on) via this technology on Shabbos?

Happiest, anyone dealing with life and death situation or crisis situations such as doctors, hatzola and maybe even Rabbonim who deal with suicide patients carry radios, beepers, cellphones etc. That is why you got the answer you received. Other than that people who look for their own loopholes and give themselves excuses are doing just that. They do NOT have a heter to do what they wish. You asked and you received a proper heter.

Happiest, Rabbonim and Hatzalo members do not text on Shabbos, They will however answer an emergency call. Kids who are texting are texting to their friends. Kids who are on the computer are on the computer as they are any other day of the week. It is very nice to try to be dan l’kaf z’chus. But on the other hand we have to understand that these kids are hurting inside for some reason and they are turning away from yiddishkeit. They are looking for loopholes to break the rules and ONE aveirah makes it easier to do the next. So when you look for an excuse, loophole, heter to allow them this or explain it away you only make it easier for them to do the next aveirah.

When a girl buys her first “iffy” skirt that exactly cover the knee completely but it is not above the knee. It is really questionable and she allows herself to let it go. If she feels ok in it and wears it then the next time she will buy that type again and maybe even go shorter. She got used to it and the second time will be easier, and the third time she won’t even give it a second thought.

The first time the kids chew treif gum, they are not sure. The second time they still feel a little queasy, the third time they are already sharing it with someone else telling them that gum doesn’t count.

If you catch these kids early enough as they are floundering and testing the waters you can save them from going down that dark journey. If you look at them as lost souls or “bad kids” and give up on them right away, or judge them, or masser on them and cause them all kinds of consequences and predicaments throwing them to the wolves, you are throwing them away like yesterday’s garbage.

The point is that it is wrong to be looking for technicalities and making excuses for why it can be OK. It really is NOT ok. It is NOT Shabbosdik behavior and to try and figure out why it might NOT be assur on Shabbos and therefor might be permitted and they might not be oiver a halacha is just pushing them into more dangerous territories. Well if texting is permitted then the cell phone is general is permitted so I can call my friends on shabbos. And as long as I leave it plugged in it won’t run out of battery so that’s not a problem. And if the computer is not a problem then I can listen to my music through the computer all shabbos, and email, and buy things because I am not exchanging money, my credit card is already on my account, etc., etc, etc. And I get menucha from shopping, etc. Where does it stop?

Hacham-

IF this type of keyboard — that doesn’t involve circuits when pressed — were used on Shabbos (without typing – just using the arrow keys and <Enter>), what issur (if any) would transpire that would prevent the usage of a computer (that was already on) via this technology on Shabbos?

This is basically a type of touch-screen technology (there are a few types).

This means that the keyboard itself isn’t having circuits closed and opened, but rather the current is increasing and decreasing.

As far as the halachic ramifications of this current altering, I don’t know.

Even if the current fluctuation isn’t as problematic as closing and opening a current, which normal keyboards do, there is still the issue of electronic components that are probably closing and opening circuits, too.

just a simple question. Who are these mechalelei shabbos texting?

And are they being responded to?

yitayningwut

I heard the psak about soda caps several years back. I think it was from Rabbi Abadi (who has a large following, but im sure that there are people here that don’t “hold” of him, even though he was appointed by Rav Aharon to be the posek of Lakewood. Anyway you don’t necisserily have to “hold of him” for it to be a limud zechus). I am going to try to ask someone who knows his pesakim better to make sure.

You bring up a good point. How is it different than ink which is made up of tiny molecules as well?

I can think of two sevaros off hand.

1. When you magnify ink, even a billion times, you will see that all the molecules are attached and connected, with no spaces in between. But if you magnify print, you will probably find small gaps and spaces between the dots.

2. It is possible that the end result is the same, but the manner of “ksivah” is different. The printer doesn’t necesserily create the dots in order. For example, for the word “the”. First the printer may put a dot on the bottom of the “e”. Then a dot on the top of the “h”. Then another dot on the bottom of the “t”, etc.

Since it is being written in this “jumbled” manner, where the dots of the letters are being formed out of order, this is not considered ksivah.

But to get the right sevara, it would probably be best to discuss it with the Rav who gave the psak in the first place.

Someone mentioned something about writing on a computer screen, that it is ksav gamur that will later be erased.

That is a very interesting sevara, which can probably have other applications. It gets into the reason behind the din of ksav sheino miskayaim.

But even so, i believe that an image on a computer screen is refreshed hundreds of times a minute, so that may anyway make it ksav sheino miskayaim. Is the Rav who issued that psak aware of this?

(this is definitly the case with the older “fat” screens, and im pretty sure that it is true with the new “thin” screens as well.)

”I believe that it is the shita of Rishonim that one is only chayav for ksav ashuris. See the Chayei Adam shabbos 37:5 (“rov” poskim etc.)”

You make it sound as if the chayei adam brings this down from rov haposkim. However if you look at his words you will see there is no way of using this as a heter for texting. and only bdochek does the chayaei adam say tzorich iyun if you can ask a goy to write in another language ltzoirech mitzvah. ( the rama holds you can be soimech ltzoirech mitzvah while the chayei adam is mesupak)

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