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Yitayningwut: Great post, I agree with your analysis, thanks.
On the ball and Lomed Mkol Adam – Thank you:)
Lomed Mkol Adam – “I would say that interenet addiction to immodest sites are just as chamur as texting on shabbos.”
Now how could a possible Lav D’orysa be equal to a Lav Sh’yesh Bo Korais, if texting is a D’orysa? You can say one might lead to the other as certain Mussar Seforim say, but you can’t say they are equal. Go review Masechtos Makos, Sanhedrin and Kreesus.
I’m hard pressed to think of another device in the Yetzer Hora’s arsenal as damaging as cell phones. They give a person the ability to Privately view unlimited pritzus 24/7. They enable people to connect with the absolute worse types of relationships that would otherwise be unreachable. They have an addictive quality to them as shown by the fact that people can’t stop using them even on Shabbos or Yom Tov. This is also evident by the fact that people routinely nurse their cell phones in their hands and hold them up to their faces even when not using them. Just take a look and you see this all the time. Cell phones, having so much power of privatized nisyoinos built in make them an emotionally attached device.
To walk around openly using a cell phone b’farhesia is blatant chuzpah & a disregard for sensitivity to basic avoidos Hashem. This is true for all adults. All the more so for children who don’t have the advantage of fully thinking for themselves yet. Children follow the examples of their parents, adults and teachers. How disturbing is it that principals and teachers and parents walk around openly using cell phones with all the inherent taivos associated with them in front of the same children they suggest shouldn’t use them? So much hypocrisy is tantamount to psychological abuse to the children.
Billam Harasha is one of the most evil Rashaim in the torah. not because he was a Navi who failed to use his nevius for good. Not because he took the job from Balak to curse the Jews. He is and always will be despised as one of the biggest Reshaim in Tanach for inciting the Bnos Midyan against the Yiden handing the Yiden over to the terrible nisayoin of pritzus and arayois. Are we acting any better when we allow or set up the children under our care (children, students, campers) with cell phones? They may be too immature to realize the inherent dangers involved in the long run of having cell phones but we should not be. What are we doing this for? What are we getting out of giving the children cell phones?
I for one do not and have not carried a cell phone and do not have any of my children carry cell phones. No one in my family misses it one bit. We all survive very nicely without this horrible device that most people think they couldn’t live without.
2morecents – Now I can understand your sentiments about phones with the possible connection to the net. But having a phone that can’t – is no different than having/owning a land based phone. Saying such a thing is Ossur no matter what, is “Kol Hamoisif Gorea”!
And no, my cell isn’t just a “kosher” phone with a disconnected net, it’s not possible to get the internet (old model).
Health-
Now how could a possible Lav D’orysa be equal to a Lav Sh’yesh Bo Korais, if texting is a D’orysa? You can say one might lead to the other as certain Mussar Seforim say, but you can’t say they are equal. Go review Masechtos Makos, Sanhedrin and Kreesus.
You are certainly correct but I don’t think you and Lomed Mkol Adam are truly disagreeing.
The Gemara in Nedarim 22a says lots of terrible things regarding someone who gets angry, as if it’s the worst of the worst. One of them is ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??. Says the Rosh, and other rishonim explain similarly, ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????.
If I am inferring correctly from Lomed Mkol Adam, the intention was not that in a vacuum it is worse, but rather something along these lines.
Health: Check up the Gemara in Krisus which states that one who transgresses a certain sin, its as if he transgressed all the 3 Chamuros. Do you hold that a Bo’el Aramis is less chamur than a one time Chillul Shabbos, just because Beth Din doesn’t give capital punishment for it?
Lomed Mkol Adam – “Check up the Gemara in Krisus which states that one who transgresses a certain sin, its as if he transgressed all the 3 Chamuros. Do you hold that a Bo’el Aramis is less chamur than a one time Chillul Shabbos, just because Beth Din doesn’t give capital punishment for it?”
I fail to follow your train of thought.
First of all -Are you talking about Loshon Hora in your first sentence? And if you are, what does that have to do with anything?
Second of all -Being Mezaneh with a Goy is only a D’rabbonnim, not a D’orysa with Skeela! Just because there is the Din of Kanoyim Poigim Bo doesn’t make it worse than Chillul Shabbos!
You should have just agreed with yitayningwut – he gave you a good defense!
“How disturbing is it that principals and teachers and parents walk around openly using cell phones”
So be proactive: Daven. Pray for these lost nearby neshamos in ata chonen and in Hashivenu. Pray for them and the rehokin like a woman prays for her children at candlighting. On shabbos, focus some kavana and invest some heart in what AM mekadshei shvi’i means, if you daven sfard, pour it into ‘veyanuchu vo KOL yisrael. Don’t just be moved, be moved to practical action.
i just saw the title for this thread. its a good thing i know that now, because i was just gonna text on shabbos, but i guess i’ll go murder someone instead!
Health: sorry, I meant the Gemara Nidah 13A.
I fail to understand why the Torah punishment of an aveira is the measuring stick to determine the severity of a specific aveira. You had yourself stated earlier that Ritzicha is more chamur than Shabbos even though its capital punishment is less severe than Chillul Shabbos. Someone who is Bo’el Aramis cha”v invites on himself a world of “Klipos” r”l, whereas someone who is merely mechalel shabbos cha”v does not metameh himself with all these “Klipos Teme’os” r”l,which is the essence of the real Gehinom.
How could we possibly have gotten to this point, that we are not literally shocked out of our skin, when we hear about so many of our kids texting on shabbos?
How LOW have we gotten! A complete disregard of Hashem and His Torah!
What has brought us to this point?
Is this what happens when we integrate into goyish society to the extent that we have?
Of course we should be shocked about chillul Shabbos, but that is still an aveira strictly bein adam laMakom, whereas murder is inclusively both bein adam laMakom AND bein adam l’chaveiro at the same time. It’s a double whammy. And it shocks the sensibilities to think that a person could actually take the life of another person on purpose. Comparing that action to someone turning on a light on Shabbos, will not affect most people the same way (even if theoretically it should).
Regarding Gehennom, I believe that the heat of fire here on Earth is 1/60 the heat of Gehennom? I wouldn’t C”V ever want to go there.
What concerns me is that some of these texting teens say that they are keeping “Half Shabbos.” I wish that there were a way to make them realize that any Chilul Shabbos is not correct.
On the ball — don’t try to read reasons into halachos of the torah. Being mechalal shabbos is not wrong because there is something “morally wrong” with it. It is wrong because hashem said so, and only He knows why.
The outcry over the recent murder was because of the moral issue, not the halachic one. (X)
Veharayah, it wasn’t only jews who were upset about what happened. The goyim wanted to lynch him in the streets.
Why are people upset about these teens, but not upset about the millions of jews in israel and all over the world, who do not keep shabbos at all? Are they all tinok shenishbah? Does it even matter?
They are jews, but they don’t have shabbos.
recently an issue was brougt up and many said it was only done by a few and not really to be concerned about it.
I am not sure that many teens are actually doing this
LMA – “I fail to understand why the Torah punishment of an aveira is the measuring stick to determine the severity of a specific aveira.”
Got a better measuring stick?
“Someone who is Bo’el Aramis cha”v invites on himself a world of “Klipos” r”l, whereas someone who is merely mechalel shabbos cha”v does not metameh himself with all these “Klipos Teme’os” r”l,which is the essence of the real Gehinom.”
Well obviously something that is a D’orysa is more important than a D’rabbonom. I guess the D’orysa of Shabbos will attract more Klippos than Boel Aramis.
Did you start learning Chassidus at a young age? Even so don’t confuse yourself on Aveiros -some are just worse than others! Shabbos is in the Aseress Hadibros, while being Mezaneh with a Goy wasn’t written anywhere in the Chumash except by Pinchas to teach us Kanoyim Poigim Bo!
It says in Talmud Eruvin, Chillul Shabbos is worse then Avodah Zora
Health: “Lo Sachmod” is one of the Aseres Hadibros and it’s nevertheless not even punishable by Malkus. Are you implying that “Lo Sachmod” is more chamur than Bo’el Aramis because it’s one of the Aseres Hadibros?
The Lav of “Lo Yihyeh Kodeish” is stated in parshas Mishpatim, way before Parshas Pinchos. Do you think Klal Yisroel thought being mezaneh is not a grave sin before Pinchos came around and killed Zimri?
FYI, I’m not at all a Chasid.
I realize this is important, but with all the issues facing teens today I am not sure this is the MOST important issue (not even close)
being a teen involved some rebiliousness, but before you say its M’Darraisa
I say is it better for a teen to text on shabbos than Take drugs, Drink Alcohol, Hang out with members of opposite gender and engage in activity, Speed in cars (Teems have high accident rates)
And dont think you teens arent engaging in these behaviors either, I see ALOT of drinking for example going on.
Being m’challel Shabbos bfarhesya is not the most important issue!?!?!?!
Woe, for how low we have fallen!
Would you rather your teen text or Drink?
Before you say neither, what if you could only choose one? Sometimes in life you have to choose your battles. People have only so much energy and funds to do battle. Its the reality of life.
Teens who drink might not only get themselves into real trouble, they might get sick, die or C’V kill someone else (Drinking and Driving).
Absolutely! Better drink than be mechallel Shabbos. How could it even be a question?!
This story was a year ago
While the teen here was not drunk , he was driving illegally and recklessly.
Look what was destroyed. Teenagers enagage in reckless behaviors.
Its better to fight more serious reckless teenage behavor. Someone can and likely will grow out of the texting, These people in this accident can never recover
Drinking on Shabbos and driving too? Then he is still a mechallel Shabbos.
That guy wasn’t even drinking in the story you linked to! Nor was it Shabbos!
I didnt say he was drinking and driving nor was it on Shabbos
I said he was engaged in reckless teenage behavior, Drinking is an example of reckless teenage behavior. Driving fast with a girl in the backseat is another example of reckless teenage behavior (as in this story). I am led to belive that its mostly teens who are texting on Shabbos.
I would think that Drinking occurs more often than reckless driving, but I could be wrong.
My point is teenagers enagage in reckless behaviors and its difficult to fight them all. You sometimes need to pick and choose which ones to fight.
Mechallel Shabbos is 100X worse.
“Mechallel Shabbos is 100X worse”
You can teach someone about NOT being Mechallel Shabbos and enjoy the beauty of shabbos….as far as I know, we can’t bring people back from the dead…
Don’t you realize that however sad it is, the murdered child rests peacefully in Gan Eden eternally, while kids who text lose their eternal life! Life in this world is short and only a corridor to the next, as it says in Pirkei Avos
Maybe that girl is in Gan Eden, but the boy who made a mistake is ruined for the rest of his life and might be in Jail.
The girls family will forever be scared because of her death and ALL her classmates went to the funeral (her friend lived a few doors away from me) and they will be scarred for life.
Every year especially around Purim time more than a few Bochrim drink and drive and get into a serious accident.
Just look at Kiddush in Shul on Shabbos, Watch the Liqour table see how many teens take from it and see how many take more than a shot of hard liquor. Probably alot more than text.
Again I am not trying to minimize texting, but if a Rov has 30 mins to give a mussar shmooze to a bunch of teens , It would be alot better to give it on the evils of teenage recklessness like drinking or driving recklessly. even though its not exactly in the torah as opposed to the texting speech which seems “easier”
Being mechallel Shabbos is incomparably worse than drinking.
No One Special…..”Don’t you realize that however sad it is, the murdered child rests peacefully in Gan Eden eternally, while kids who text lose their eternal life! Life in this world is short and only a corridor to the next, as it says in Pirkei Avos”
And what about the anguish the family goes through? What about the endless pain they must deal with…what if they can no longer function and let their Yidishkyte slip away or worse develop a hatred for it?. This happened to many who lived through the horrors of the Holocaust, many of them through away their Judaism…
I’m sorry but Murder to me is worse…Like I said before you can teach and inspire someone about the beauty of shabbos…we can’t bring people back from the dead….
sorry, didn’t mean to take away from their pain, may no one ever know it. I just meant that we should also start feeling pain by people who are losing their eternal life. Not that I’m not pained more by murder, but I guess really we should be equally effected by both. was just trying to bring out this point.
Rabbanim should definitely be giving teens guidance on reckless driving and the likes. It is very important. Something like texting shouldn’t even have to be mentioned, if the Rav stresses on good chinuch in general, beauty of shabbos, yiras shmayim, ahavas hashem, etc.
LMA – “Are you implying that “Lo Sachmod” is more chamur than Bo’el Aramis because it’s one of the Aseres Hadibros?”
Yes. Anything Meforish B’kra is more Chamor than something that at the most is Halacha Moshe MeSinai!
“Do you think Klal Yisroel thought being mezaneh is not a grave sin before Pinchos came around and killed Zimri?”
I have no idea what they thought, but they didn’t know the Din of Kanim Poigim Bo till then!
What is your obsession with Arayos? In my Torah there are 613 and only a few are Arayos!
Health: The Halacha l’moshe M’isinai refers only to the oinesh; the issur was well known before.
The Midrash states that Avrohom Avinu stations himself at the entrance of Gehinom, all of his children he pulls out of Gehinom except for those who were Bo’el a Bas Neichar [Aramis] and thereby lost their “Ois Bris Kodesh”.
The prohibition of Arayos is the foundation of our connection with Hashem. This is precisely why Bilam Harasha advised Mo’av specificly to be machshil Klal Yisroel through Arayos. As the posuk states “V’Ra’ah Bicha Ervas Davar V’shuv Mei’acharecha”.
LMA – You didn’t answer my question.
Anyway, I don’t recall the Medrash about Avrohom Aveinu talking about Boel Aramis, I remember just about the Bris part, not anything more -are you sure?
“The prohibition of Arayos is the foundation of our connection with Hashem. This is precisely why Bilam Harasha advised Mo’av specificly to be machshil Klal Yisroel through Arayos. As the posuk states “V’Ra’ah Bicha Ervas Davar V’shuv Mei’acharecha”.”
While what you wrote is true, I don’t think Klal Yisroel would have been destroyed by just being Mezaneh. (It’s only a D’Rabbonim.) That is why the Moavite women always took out their Avodah Zorah and said you must do this also and they did!
For those who violate Shabbos we try to bring them around to fully keep Shabbos. We generally assume that they were not fully aware of seriousness of the violation. When I learned the Gemara of Shabbos I learned that one who violates Shabbos, but does not know the seriousness of the violation can later bring a sin offering to atone.
To bring them to fully keep Shabbos we must show them the beauty of Shabbos, not invoke “Fire and Brimstone” which can turn them off and lead then to fully give up trying to keep any of the Torah.
For those who violate the 6th commandment, we are more interested in protecting society, than in trying to “bring them around”.
We need to protect society from those that violate the 4th commandment in as much as we protect society from those that violate the 6th commandment. Fire and Brimstone is mentioned in the Torah and the many mussar seforim that relate the terrible things that one will experience both in this and the next world for violating Shabbos.
Josh31…well said…
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