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The six Israeli Jewish hostages were murdered shortly before located. They were very close to where the Israeli Arab hostage was rescued a few days ago. Which is what alerted the terrorists that the army was nearby and would locate them.
Was it worth for Netanyahu to have not agreed to a cease fire, that would have freed the hostages before they were killed?
Ujm, do you actually believe that Hamas would nicely give back all the hostages, repress their killing instincts and give up their culture of war and death and stop their murderous rampages on Israelis if Israel if pull would out of Gaza?
what alerted terrorists? maybe gunfire and bomb explosions? Tzahal was going thru that whole area.
Despite all the passions, the fact is that holding the border is an important issue. Ask yourself – why it may be a “red line” for Hamas? Obviously, because they intend to use the border for re-supply. So, even if you don’t have detailed information Israeli government has, you can conclude that this is an important issue. I am not telling you what the right solution is in the difficult situation, but at minimum this is not some personal preference by Bibi, but a serious security consideration that one needs to consider. Making the issue into a political pressure point against Israeli government is exactly what Hamas and other sonei Yisroel want to happen.
Perhaps. Indeed, it seems likely that they were killed when it was clear to their captors that they would not play a role in hostage negotiations, but rather were to be freed soon by troops closing in. But lets say that the terrorists would have demanded a price for their lives that ultimately would cause more bloodshed than six lost lives, and Netanyahu would have bowed to pressure and agreed. Is that what any of us want?
I think the real argument here is whether we think that had the government wanted to, they could have both negotiated a deal and also not compromised Israel’s security. The other side is that inasmuch as that has not been the case, why imagine so?
ujm is an Iranian funded bot
Was it worth for Netanyahu to have not agreed to a cease fire, that would have freed the hostages before they were killed?
Yes, because a ceasefire could mean thousands more Jews killed ch”v, as Hamas has no reason not to repeat what they did on October 7th.
“Was it worth for Netanyahu to have not agreed to a cease fire”
Not sure what universe you live on, but Netanyahu never “didn’t agree to a cease fire [sic]”. There never was a cease fire [sic] deal brokered.
Joe, you’re woefully ignorant of what was being negotiated.
Hamas wasn’t going to release hostages. One of the main sticking points was that Hamas wanted to release dead bodies, not living hostages, and Israel said no, it must be living people. Hamas refused to give in. So Netanyahu agreeing to a deal would not have helped these people.UJM and HaKatan and the entire Neturei Karta
are De Facto allies of Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran,
whether they realize or not,
and whether they admit it or not.I have already explained why this is true many times,
right here in this Coffee Room,
and I will not waste my time by explaining it again.After 120 years, their status as ALLIES of the genocidal terrorist
bloodthirsty enemies of the Jewish People will be held against them,
and they will be in very big trouble,
even will all their piety and Talmudic scholarship.Additionally, UJM and HaKatan and the entire Neturei Karta
are guilty of promoting a provably-false version of
Jewish History, in which anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish
persecutions never really existed, until “THE ZIONISTS” appeared.Repeatedly promoting this provably-false version of Jewish History
will cause them to be included in the category of liars,
which the Talmud teaches will be punished in Olam HaBa,This provably-false version of Jewish History, in which anti-Semitism and
anti-Jewish persecutions never really existed, until “THE ZIONISTS” appeared,
was invented by people who did NOT KNOW the history of Jews in Arab lands
and did NOT KNOW the history of Islam, did not know the history of the
Middle East, did NOT KNOW much about Jewish History in general,
because their ancestors did NOT live in Muslim lands,
and because they believed in studying ONLY Talmud and nothing else,
and because they believed that studying Jewish History
is Bittul Torah, which is a sinful waste of time.Agreeing to a cease fire will just cause more terrorism Chas VShalom showing these terrorists that terror rules and pays off best and always wins. This is something serious that you can’t let terrorists win or it will just cause more years of terrorism Chas VShalom
I don’t even get question. How does the tragic brutal murder of these hostages change the equation and situation any more than the tragic killing of Israeli soldiers does? It is true that if Israel does not give in to Hamas’s demands more of the hostages may be murdered R’L. It is true that Israel had the option to give in to whatever Hamas wanted long ago and save some more hostages. Therefore what? It was even a lot more clear before the Israeli response to October 7th started that there would be Israeli causalities fighting Hamas. Every single neutral miliary analyst back then gave us a MUCH higher estimate of what the casualty amount would be. They also told us that Israel would accomplish far less in fighting Hamas than it did. But with the exception of the pro Hamas crowd everyone agreed that it made sense for Israel to respond despite the inevitably of Israeli soldiers getting killed fighting Hamas R’L. It was understood that not doing so will cause even more casualties R’L over the long term. How does the murder of six hostages change that equation in the slightest?
Joseph,
You’re a vile piece of stinking human excrement. You never gave a damn about the hostages and repeatedly mocked all efforts to free them. You and your twisted NK besties had the happiest Simchas Torah ever, celebrating the Hamas butchery of October 7th.
You’ve always hated anyone who doesn’t look and think like you do. Go slither back into the filthy sewer you oozed out of.
Ujm, did you forget you are still in golus? The assimilated Jews in Europe also thought they were safe…until the Holocauset happened. You think that just because within the span of years from the Holocaust until now most of the Jews who died were from Israel and we are safe in the US…that is very naive.
philosopher,
Joseph, like his hate-filled NK buddies, believes that Zionism is directly responsible for every evil, including anti-Semitism, war, terrorism, COVID, hemorrhroids, the Holocaust, pogroms, Chmielnicki, the Inquisition, Blood Libels, the Crusades and even the Churban. They feel that all Jews should move to the new Jerusalem of Brooklyn and celebrate when those in Israel are killed.
I believe killing hostages is a crime, war crime, and against international laws and norms no matter what anyone believes.
You have a small politically motivated group that will scream “Bibi”, while even the terrorists would’ve gone to the international courts if you did the same thing, instead of making it political nonsense.
So, what are you going to do about it? Cry “Bibi”?If you believe that radical Muslims like Hamas and Hezbollah
can be trusted to negotiate honestly. or negotiate with honor,
or negotiate in good faith, then you DO NOT UNDERSTAND
the religious beliefs of radical Muslims, which teach that
negotiations with non-Muslims need not be honest,
and need not be sincere, and need not be complied with.Any treaty that Muslims make with non-Muslims,
can be broken and violated at any time,
if it benefits Islam or Muslims.
THIS IS WHAT ISLAM TEACHES!! THIS IS WHAT ISLAM TEACHES!!Hamas has intentionally broken 100% of the cease-fire
agreements that they made, over past 20 years.Since Hamas has proven themselves to be completely dishonest,
and completely dishonorable, and completely untrustworthy,
there is no logical reason to criticize Israel’s government
for its flaws with negotiating cease-fires with Hamas.It looked at the beginning that the murder of hostages was done by retreating terrorists who could not move hostages and did not want to leave them. But it appears now that they also pre-planned using the murder for propaganda purposes. Hopefully, Israeli public will understand this process and that their emotions are being manipulated by terrorists.
Gadolhadofi, your comment is hysterical 😀 the anti-Zionists blaming, among other things, hemorrhroids on Zionism 😂. But the truth is not too far from that. Anti-Zionists seriously blame the Holocaust on Zionism. That is absolutely disgusting, it’s a deliberate perversion of history. The blaming of terrorism on Zionism is disgustingas well. The Fakestenian terrorists EXCUSE is Zionism just like all the haters who have have killed Jews throughout history always had one excuse or another why they were “justified” to murder and persecute Jews.
Joseph,
So once again, this thread was never really about the hostages, for whom you could care less, but to beat your scrawny, heartless chest about the evils of Zionism.
You’re repulsive.
There are so many variables that complicate this discussion.
Firstly, what is the after game? I get it that the goal is lets say to stay in Gaza for another year or two. But there will be a time just like Lebanon when we tends will leave. Who controls the place then? And who says they will be better? Will it be a ” new group” who pretends to be peaceful (maybe the PA) and that will force Israel to allow more freedom but then when it turns around CVS they are even worse? Or keeping Hamas there but having a good excuse to box them in more is perhaps the option which may be the ceasefire option?
Secondly, the prisoner exchange. We like to say this was all Sinwar YMS brains. But was it also not Deif and mashal YMS?, Sure letting out prisioners can result in senior experienced operatives to turn around and kill us. But in reality there are just so many rutheless palestianins drinking the jihad kool-aid that if it’s not these animals its them.
Of course meanwhile hostages are suffering a holocaust and there is no viable way to free them by force rather CVS Hamas will kill them if we get to close
And what if we make a deal and go back in after our fellow brothers come home? The world will scream and we won’t be able to grab all the freed prisoners that have blood on their hands but we can get a nice amount.
I am not suggesting that this approach of standing frim with no ceasefire is wrong. From a torah perspective we have the mahram M rutenberg. Although R Michoel Ber Z’l did negotiate with nazis. I heard R Asher Weiss couldn’t pasken either way when asked. Ultimately I just don’t think its a simple as everyone makes itUjm, there are almost no Zionists today except for the religious right-wingers. The secular are not Zionists anymore. No one said we are not in golus anymore. If someone feels safer Israel, kol hakavod to them, but you feel more secure in the US which is an illusion just like the Jews who felt safe in Germany before the Holocaust.
Bring me a source that Rav aHutner and Rav Avigdor Miller said that the Zionists bear guilt for the Holocauset.
Yes, overall the Muslims were better to the Jews however they still murdered Jews and stole Jewish children, especially girls. They forced tens of thousands of Jews to convert to Islam which so many did because they still served One God under Islam so it was not like converting to Christianity which is pure a”z. If the scores of Jews in the Arabian lands who converted to Islam would refuse to be converted like the Ashkenazim refused to be converted to Christianity, and therefore killed, many more Jews would die at the hands of the Muslims.
It’s utterly ridiculous, and only the due to brainwashing, to think that Zionism is to blame for current Muslim violence. In the last decade, Muslims have killed hundreds of thousands of their own Muslim people, they killed Yazidis, Christians, and other minorities, they have displaced millions of people, but sure, if not for Zionism they wouldn’t hurt Jews…what planet are you living on to believe that?!
As some say here, situation is not that simple. Keep in mind that Israeli government has more information than CR posters. If they need certain conditions, they are most likely basing them on specific information they have. Do they have perfect information and doing perfect analysis, not necessarily, as evident by the posture they had a year ago. If you are so smart, you should have complained on Sep 7, 2023. If not, give the decision-makers some benefit of the doubt and do not participate in political actions that makes their work harder even if you are “following your feelings”.
Joseph,
You define “we Jews” as yourself and your NK buddies, who are this generation’s devoted acolytes of Joseph Goebbels.
ujm.
“Was it worth for Netanyahu to have not agreed to a cease fire, that would have freed the hostages before they were killed?”
There was no ceasefire that the terrorists agreed to, other than a complete stop to the fighting, and the IDF should back out. Anything else that was deemed reasonable was rejected, per the neutral negotiators.
Yet, it’s absurd to accuse anyone else other than the terrorists who intentionally murdered innocent civilians. If we are going to blame others, why not on those who put restrictions on the Israelis and did not let them move in, get the job done quickly, at any price to the Palestinians, and move on? This is the should be the consequence of instigating war and killing civilians for no reason. Denying Israel to respond aggressively and limiting their response emboldens terrorists and allows them to operate.
Yes, overall the Muslims were better to the Jews however they still murdered Jews and stole Jewish children, especially girls.
Philosopher,
This is a very true and important point that the NK always ignore.
Remember the Rambam’s FIERY words about the Muslims after escaping the Almohads:
ידוע לכם שהקב”ה הפילנו במהמרות עונותינו בתוך אומה זו שהיא אומת ישמעאל שרעתם חזקה עלינו והם מתחכמים להרע ולמאוס אותנו כמו שגזר עלינו יתברך ואויבינו פלילים ושלא תעמוד על ישראל אומה יותר אויבת ממנה ולא אומה שהרעה בתכלית הרעה לדלדל אותנו ולהקטין אותנו ולמאוס אותנו כמוהם . . ואנחנו בעודנו סובלים שעבודה וכזביהם ושקרותם למעלה מיכולתנו שאין ביכולת האדם כח לסבול…
“No nation is as wicked as them or hates us as much as them.”Anyone who says that Muslims have historically always treated Jews nicely and peacefully is sadly mistaken.
> circulated the notorious canard that Gedolei Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth,
Could someone clarify what the Rav meant here by “distortion of truth”? Especially in light of the poster’s further quotes.
Ujm, what you wrote about Rabbi Hutner zt”l is copy and paste from somewhere? What is the source? You did not bring me a source where it says that he says what you claim he did. Furthermore, I’m not an expert on Rabbi Hutner’s biography, but he was a talmud of Rabbi Kook zt”l who mentored him for years and I can’t believe that he was so anti-Zionist if his mentor was Rav Kook.
What you write Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l said about Zionist leaders I can’t confirm nor deny. However, I see nothing that you wrote where he blamed the Zionist movement on the Holocaust, rather he blamed the atheist Zionist leaders for failing to do more to save Jews from the Holocauset. Thats quite different than blaming the Holocaust on Zionism as a movement. (Same as what you claim Rabbi Hutner said) One thing I can tell you as a fact I that I listened to many of Rabbi Miller’s tapes and on one tape someone asked what he says about the State of Israel. He said he cannot comment on that. The questioner repeated his question but Rabbi Miller said he cannot again that answer on that.
Here’s an audio on what he answered on the topic of voting in the Israeli elections which is a similar to what I heard that he is not poskening on the issue of the state of Israel, he is leaving it to other gedolim.
Discussions of what happened during the war is missing the boat _literally_ – the boats that were available to at least some who wanted to leave troublesome Europe to almost any other place in the world, including goldene medinah and zionist Palestine. Beltzer Rebbe admitted after the war that he mislead people who relied on him, maybe some others also. In truth, it was not easy to predict the horrors, some like R Elhanan had a premonition. Poland as a whole, both non-Jews and Jews, felt very optimistic based on their victory in 1920 war against USSR, their strong cavalry, their flourishing democracy after a couple of century of being colonized by neighboring empires, and their alliances with major powers. Still, sober analysis could lead people to conclusion that living between Communists and Nazis is not an ideal place. The realities of 20th century were sinking in too slowly. Maybe if Yidden paid more attention to horrors of USSR (dismissed by some as excesses) and Nazi Germany (dismissed as happening to assimilated Jews only), they would react better.
Still, I wonder how many people in CR are descendants from those who left Europe and those who stayed. Show of hands?
Menachem Shmei, indeed I agree with you here. The Rambam himself wrote how evil they are. He knows the Muslims better than the anti-Zionists and even us Ashkenazim who always repeat that the Jews had it better under the Muslims. Jews also lived in peace under various Christian rulers too. I for one will not argue anymore that Jews suffered less under the Muslims. We see how they treat people today, they are not different today from the barbarism they displayed throughout history.
Ujm, the strawman argument is that the Muslims became barbarians due to Zionism.
Interesting thought about Muslim vs Christian Jew-hatred:
When large numbers of Jews, along with major Jewish infrastructure, were located in Christian Europe, most of the significant antisemitism came from Christians.
However, after mass migration to Eretz Yisroel, which is surrounded by Muslim nations, Muslims suddenly became the primary source of antisemitism.Perhaps this shift had less to do with Zionism and more to do with the fact that Jews face hatred wherever they are.
Ujm, so are you going to blame Muslim barbarism and bloodshed throughout all of history, throughout all the centuries, on Zionism? What about the fact that they killed hundreds of thousands of their own people and other minorities in the last decade? Is that also because of Zionism? All of their “holy wars” that they fight between themselves, the decapitation they do on their own people, the violence, etc. they only do that to other Muslims and other minorities but they wouldn’t dare harm Jews? Yes, I’m sure it was Zionism that made the bloodthirsty, violent, pereh adam kidnap and murder Jews…
Dear UJM,
Your false version of Jewish History has been refuted many times,
both inside and outside this Coffee Room;
but you don’t know when to stop, because you are a
hate-filled, close-minded, stubborn, brainwashed fanatic.You are also a De Facto ALLY of:
Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Iran & the Islamic State (ISIS).Here we go again:
[1] Mohammed, the founder of Islam,
beheaded more than 800 Jewish men,
and made their widows and orphans into slaves.[2] The Koran, chapter 5, verse 82,
says that Jews and polytheists are THE WORST ENEMIES OF MUSLIMS.
Not just enemies of Muslims, but “THE WORST” enemies of Muslims.[3] The Hadith (one of Islam’s most important holy books)
teaches that The Last Day cannot come until 100% of Jews are DEAD.This means that ALL JEWS MUST DIE,
even those Jews who are non-Zionist, even those Jews who are anti-Zionist,
even women, even teenagers, even children, even toddlers, even babies.The Hadith also teaches that when The Last Day comes,
rocks and trees will miraculously begin to speak, and say:“Muslim! A Jew is hiding behind me! Arise, and slay [kill] him!”
Islam also teaches that Jews are dishonest & wicked & go to Hell.
[4] This is a very small sample of Muslim hate against Jews.
But I do not have all day to do this, so I will stop here,
because “a word to the wise is sufficient”.Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOT========================
Once full-scale war broke out after the State of Israel
declared its existence on May 14, 1948 [CE]
Reb Shraga Feivel’s [Mendlowitz] thoughts
were never far from Eretz Yisrael.A group of students saw him outside the Mesivta building
one day, talking excitedly with Rabbi Gedaliah Schorr
and gesticulating rapidly with the newspaper held in his hand.“If I were your age,” he [Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz]
told the students, “I would take a gun and go to Eretz Yisrael.”SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 338) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965========================
In a conversation with the Satmar Rav, shortly after his talk
on the U.N. declaration, Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz]
was subjected to the sharpest criticism for his “Zionist leanings.”Later he told his family, “I could have answered him [the Satmar Rav]
Chazal for Chazal, Midrash for Midrash, but I did not want to
incur his wrath, for he is a great man and a tzaddik.”He added with a twinkle, “And besides, he has a fiery temper”…
SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 335 to 336) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965Ujm, you keep repeating the same mantras yourself.
1. Meanwhile you have nothing to remark about the Rambam’s declaration about the Muslims, the violent Muslim rampages on communities that did not accept their religion, the Arab/Muslims have always been violent, period. You have not responded to the fact Muslims committed hundreds of thousands murders of non-Jews in the last decade. Zionism has nothing to do with Arab/Muslim violence, period.
2. I bought you a link of the recording of Rabbi Miller regarding the Israeli elections, he did not say you cant vote, simply said hes leaving up to other Rabbis (many more Rabbis encouraged/encourage voting in the elections than the anti-Zionist rabbis). You wrote what Rabbi Miller and Rabbi Hutner wrote against the atheist Zionist LEADERS, it was not against the Zionist movement. You ignored the fact that Rabbi Hutner learned under Rav Kook so he couldn’t have been an anti-Zionist. I heard Rabbi Miller on a recording say he can’t answer a question about Zionism. I believe when he was younger he was anti-Zionist and in his later years, as the Chareidi communities became more and bigger he did not speak against Zionism.
3. I don’t have pride in the State. I am against the secular “education” the Israeli government provides for Jewish children. I am against the secular government giving citizenship for non-Jews, i was against the Israeli government giving away land “for peace” . I am against a lot of things the Israeli government does. But I’m also against Jews not defending themselves. I support Jews having an army and fighting their enemies.Joseph,
Do you really think that R. Hutner, zt”l and R. Miller, zt”l are having nachas from your unwavering hatred against Jews and disdain for the hostages?
UJM what have you done constructively to help the hostages or the situation in Israel?
1,
By constantly criticizing other Jews and spewing lengthy posts, Joseph hopes to destroy the Zionists entity, perhaps by boring its supporters into submission. Then, his NK messiah will arrive and maybe free the hostages, if he feels like it.
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