Tenor of Discussion on YWN: When Discussions Become Acrimonious

dont have internet-

“The Big One” had cut-and-pasted something I posted.

To answer your questions:

I don’t use the eiruv because the rabonim I rely upon say that it is problematic.

My friend’s Rabbi holds that the eruv is OK and can be relied upon.

I honestly didn’t know if in this case I should say that since he is somech on his rav it’s not at all a problem, or if since he would be carrying on my account (because of my invitation) I should ask him not to.

I therefore asked Rav Feivel Cohen what I should do.

If a friend is doing something that me/my family would not do because of chumra I probably wouldn’t say anything regardless of the situation.

If a friend is doing something clearly asur due to lack of knowledge (such as adjusting the heat of an electric oven on yom tov) I would speak up.

If a friend is doing something that me/my family would not do because because my rabonim say it shouldn’t be done, but his Rabbi says it’s OK I probably wouldn’t say anything normally, but would ask him not to do it on my account – the same way I wouldn’t ask him to take my garbage out on Shabbos.

Even if quoted in the Gemarah, the story of the woman is NOT halacha, nor meant to be considered as such, would you not agree with that statement? Whatever lessons the Tanna wanted to glean from his mother’s statement, she is not a rov, she has no paskening power, and this was not a p’sak. It was simply her own opinion, right or wrong. I am fine with the lesson to be learned, that a woman feels she has been zocheh to a great sachar from Hashem in Olam Hazeh because of her own added dimension of tznius. But that does not mean that THAT is the reason she was so blessed. We cannot presume to know why Hashem rewards or does not reward in a specific way.

Joseph-

I’ve davened there, but not often.

The reason I asked him was because of his stature as a talmid chacham and posek.

(please understand that I prefer not to give personal info in a public forum)

ICOT: Sorry, can’t resist (feel free to disregard this post); do you frequent a large shtiebel on 17?

ICOT, the issue being Ocean Parkway’s status as a rshus harabbim?

Joseph-

A more thorough answer:

I don’t remember and may never have known what all the facets of the “Brooklyn eiruv” issue are, but as best I can recall they were:

Is Ocean Parkway a rishus harabim d’oyraisa?

Do the various elevated train lines and overpasses count as breaks?

I believe many chasidim in Boro Park rely on the Boro Park eruv because that community is entirely surrounded by elevated (west end and culver) train lines, while in Flatbush they would not carry.

joseph

Only Simple Heilige Righteous Yidden – roshei taivos?

sounds to me like you hit the nail on the head.

sorry – couldn’t resist.

ICOT,

If we agree O.P. is a reshus harabim mdoraisa, what constitutes a “break”? Why is Queens (or even Nassau) not affected by O.P.? Brooklyn and Queens are both part of the same city. Why should the Brooklyn-Queens “border”, be considered any differently than say the difference between Flatbush and Crown Heights (insofar that O.P. would prevent an eiruv)?

These really are somewhat academic, as I think (for whatever technical reasons) Reb Moshe (and the Satmar Rebbe I believe) paskened an Eiruv wasn’t possible in Flatbush, Boro Park or Manhattan.

Most of these threads are people stating their opinions on gray matter. But to start arguing based on complete ignorance. Why dont we leave the arguing to the more knowledgeble?

The whole eiruv business reminded me of a joke about two friends for ten years who used to learn together, etc. One day one friend called the other saying he needed him for a minyan and they only had nine. The friend apologized but said he couldn’t go. So the first guy begs him, it’s a snowy day, nobody is coming to shul, they really need him. Sorry, he sys, he can’t come. When pressed, he finally admits he can’t be part of the minyan – he’s not Jewish. “But what are you talking about?” Screams the first guy.

“We learn together, you come to shul, YOU KEEP SHABBOS!!! If you keep Shabbos and are not a Jew, you are chayav misah!!” “I know,” says the other guy, “but I always was mechalel Shabbos in one way. I carried on Shabbos.” “What do you mean,” says the first guy, “you can carry on Shabbo, we have an eiruv!” “AHHHH,” replied the friend, “but I don’t HOLD from it!”

Avrohom Avinu kept Shabbos even before he was megayer. How could he, if he wasn’t yet a Yid (chayiv misa)? He wore tzitzis too. And since he had no chiyuv to wear them, he was “carrying” on Shabbos, hence “violating” it.

My Rav, and I, discus matters of the Real World. I’m not seriously going to talk to him about an internet forum.

notpashut- “orthodox?”

What’s the deal with the question mark? That is very disrespectful, and highly offensive. This is a RABBI you are talking about. (who has smicha, and IS Orthodox. Do you have smicha? I’m thinking, NOT) Learn a little something called DERECH ERETZ. Yikes!

p.s. I am not here to argue who is right or wrong. I’m just posting my details on this matter on an internet thread in YWN.

Well, after an absolutely, mamash, gevaldig shlomo zzl’l concert motzei shabbos that went on till one in the morning, I am back adding my two cents to some of the questions discussed.Joseph and others, notpashut,noitallmr, I had the opportunity to ACTUALLYy learn the BACH this shabbos and other “nosei keilim’ of the Tur and Shulchan Aruch.

It is INCONTROVERTBILE that the Bach and his succesors do not consider “beged ish’ a Piece of clothing of the opposite sex in two different situations: 1) even it is a “beged Hiddur”- meaning a fancy and important piece of clothing, if it is put on by the woman (or the man)for a specific purpose (like cold or rain), not related to wanting to look like the opposite sex, it is PERMITTED. The Taz ( Bach’s son-in-law) and the Shach CONCUR.

the other situation is of a piece of clothing that is not used for “hiddur’- importance, then it is mutter anytime.

Before jumping on me- PLEASE check the sources!!

Ok- now, the Bach does not specifically mention pants or the like and I surmise that the acharonim mentioned prohibit pants because of znius , not “lo silbash’. This fact is truly clear from the BACH, the TAZ and the SHACH.

Interestingly, the Tur and the Shulchan Aruch mention a “mitznefet” as a ‘beged ish”, because it is a piece of clothing that a man wears to look important. SO, women, to put on a (man’s) hat may be “lo silbash’!

Anyway- It is absolutely clear from these acharonim that what a “beged ish” is much more limited than you’d think. Woman’s pants are not even “beged ish”, so wearing pants may not be “znisudik” but ‘lo silbash’ it ain’t.

notpashut- I have not seen the various teshuvos that Joseph mentions but I can only quote the gedolei acharonim like the Bach ,the Taz and the Shach.

Joseph, I checked the Bi-ur halocho about woman’s hair and ,if you would quote it properly, he writes that , in her house, she is permitted to go without her hair covered. True- the Chofetz Chaim himself continues and strongly questions this custom but he writes it in Biur halocho, which ,as you know, is not the way he actually paskens.

The issue of hair coveing is very extensive and really cannot be covered in a short email posting. There are a multitude of halochos and customs -Das moshe, das jehudis, etc. The Rambam seems to have his own way of looking at this (see Hichos soitah)and “nahara ,nahara pashtei” ,the customs on this have spread far and diffently to various communities.

One correction- the mother who said that “the walls of her house never saw her hair’ had the zechus of “Kohanim gedolim'(not a Tannah ,as I wrote mistakenly) as descendants (Massechet Jummoh).Still ,it was a “madreiha’, not a halacha.

I won’t even venture into the discussion about eiruv. For that, you need a whole blog!

joseph, we are talking at cross-purposes here. A miniskirt is-as you write- not zniusdk and should not be worn. Absolutely. I don’t whitewash the znius question at all. If my memory still serves me right- the Bach and the other acharonim allow any piece of clothing of a man if it is not an important beged. For example- long johns in the winter. “Lefi anyus daati”, this would not be considered ‘lo silbash’,even if they were men’s long johns.They surely are not an important part of clothing and are worn to fend off the cold. Culottes- a kind of combination skirt-pants, is ONLY worn by women and is actually quite zniusdik should be allowed. Pants UNDER a skirt (such as soem yemenite women wear) should be allowed.It is zniusdik and it is surely not a ‘beged ish”.

Please remember that the Bach is talking about a beged who actually belongs to a man, unlike my examples where they are absolutely a woman’s garment.

Look, I am not here to pasken and the acharonim whose teshuvos you bring have their reasons for the issur. My main point was that it is not ‘lo silbash”. Simply put ,if all these pieces of clothing would be actually “lo silbash” I am not sure thet Bach and his followers could say it is Ok. Additionally, there is also a hetter of “the community’s customs” (lefi minhag hamokom).Look it up.

Anyway- regardless of our different political views, I respect your knowledge, If you have a chance, look at the Bach. it is very lengthy but it will be worthwhile. (You can also check the Taz and the Shach subsequently, who follow in his footsteps.)

Thank you, RabbiofBerlin, for a very informative couple of posts.

rabbiofberlin, So you agree that, due to the tznius violation, a woman wearing jeans or corporate suitpants on a summer day is assur?

rabbiofberlin, Regarding your car trip example: if instead of sweatpants, she used a miniskirt, would that change the metzius of its permissibility? If you claim that tznius is unnecessary when only surrounded by immediate family, then you seem to say that a miniskirt too would be acceptable in that environment.

But even more importantly: is she able to get from her home into and out of the car unseen? When driving, is she invisible to others on the road or street?

Joseph – what about women’s pajamas? Are they allowed to wear pants then? Just curious what you hold by.

I personally have to wear pants for work many times. I work in power plants that are old and dangerous. Skirts are a hazard. I am constantly climbing over and under pipes, walking on grating – there are dangerous pieces of equipment that a skirt could get caught on. My rabbi allows it.

When I lived in Brooklyn I asked the Rabbi of the shul I davened at about the eruv. He said it was kosher so I used it (and still do when I go back). To me, it was important to have an eruv because I had never lived without one, so I wasnt so sensitive to making sure my pockets were empty. My sister on the other hand didnt hold by the eruv. Her Rabbi forbid her from inviting people who used the eruv because it might possibly cause them to carry. Since I lived in the building with her, it didnt affect me, but it affected my sister. I personally disagreed with her Rabbi because it was a lack of disrespect for other poskim. However, he isnt a Rabbi I hold in high regards for many reasons, so this didnt shock me.

Question: Wanted to hear your opinion, and why.

A skirt that passes the knees by 2 inches.

OR

A skirt down to the ankles, with a slit that reaches 2 inches up before the knee.

Which one (or both?), do you think is less appropriate, and why?

I could not ressist adding a “knaitsh'(angle) to the discussion about eiruv. I truly don’t understand how Rabbonim can tell their congregnats NOT to invite OTHER people in case they may use the eiruv, which they think is kosher. Even if that particular Rov does not “hold’ of the eiruv, there is a gemoro in Jevomos that says that Bais Shammai and Bais Hillel “lo nimnemu milehasi”. They did not refrain from marrying into each other’s families although they had diametrically opposite views on ‘tsoros’ (too complicated to explain now to the layman-please forgive me!)In other words, they would hold one shittah but accept the other person’s shittah without it affecting how they acted towards them. I fail to see why this could not be done today.

rabbiofberlin & sjsinnyc,

The answer to both of your questions is one in the same.

Some times a Rov can hold A & understands that there is room for another Rov to hold B – he simply does not agree with that p’sak.

However, sometimes (& this is the case with the Flatbush eiruv) the Rabbonim who hold A are of the opinion that B is completely & totally erroneous & therefore there is no room to be lenient whatsoever.

I myself saw signs up signed by two of the most prominent poskim in America as well as Rav Elyashiv Shlit”a stating that anyone who carries in the eiruv is a “mechalel shabbos b’farhesia”.

So again, I’m a nobody & I can’t tell you not to rely on your Rabbi, but the aforementioned Rabbonim are of the opinion that your Rabbi is making a MISTAKE, they don’t merely disagree.

Notpashut, I have not been following this whole discussion, but seem to vaguely recall that Reb Moshe writes that even though he has his opinion on the flatbush eruv (machmir), he has no problem with a Rov who disagrees and paskens to be maikil.

I have no problem with accepting other people’s stricter psak. I have no problem abiding by it either, when necessary (I only use bodek spinach when my sister comes, per her request). But I do have a problem when people make it seem like my psak is totally wrong and halachically unacceptable.

sjsinnyc

It can’t be that their Rav said your sister can’t be invited at all even if she agreed not to carry, that makes no sense! Either I’m misunderstanding you or you misunderstood them.

As far as your statement “I do have a problem when people make it seem like my psak is totally wrong & halachically unacceptable.” Perhaps I can give you an analogy which will help you understand.

Imagine I say that I think Bloomberg is a better mayor than Guiliani & you disagree. We can then have a pleasent argument & I’d hear your reasons & you’d hear mine & we would not be able to agree.

Now imagine I say Dinkins was a better mayor than Guiliani or Bloomberg – you wouldn’t even argue with me! We wouldn’t be having a DISAGREEMENT, you would simply say that I am making a MISTAKE.

Same thing here, these Rabbanim hold that it’s chillul shabbos mammash, they don’t even agree that there is a legitimate tzad to be maikel.

Pashuteh

I don’t know what to tell you about R Moshe but this is the way I understand the situation.

SJSinNYC

I did not misunderstand your post. I understood that they cannot invite at all. You still have to accept the Psak. It’s hard but you wouldn’t get Schar for anything if it’d be easy. (What would you say if I would ask you not to prepare spinach at all for me because my husband does not trust bodek’s standards…?)