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its also in Pirkei Avos
Is it? I don’t believe so (although I could be wrong).
We say it as a preface to learning Avos, but I don’t recall that Mishna actually being in Avos.
The Wolf
showed that you are much more learned
I don’t think knowing the location of a well-known Mishna qualifies as “much more learned.”
The Wolf
I know plenty of people that “don’t have a tv” and keep up with the latest shows in the internet.
I know plenty of those people too. I also know plenty of people who have a TV but keep it hidden in a closet away from the eyes of guests and who will deny having it to all but their closest friends.
The Wolf
Not just knowing the location, but reconciling the beginning and end of the Mishna and placing it in context with the current discussion.
We say it as a preface to learning Avos, but I don’t recall that Mishna actually being in Avos.
i think youre right.
“Yeravam. Or Achav. Or Deog.”
You forgot JC.
Wolf, stop it. Its not funny anymore.
JC is not mentioned in the Mishna. Not even in the uncensored version (that I have seen). Wonder why?
hes in the Gemorrah
So in the 300 year interim, he did have a chelek?
yes, his chalek is described there. he is one of the neshamos that Onkelos visited when he was considering gayros, and his situation is described
hes in the Gemorrah
Debatable. If it’s really him, then the timing is off and the whole Pontius Pilate story is false. In addition there are significant differences between the person mentioned in the Gemara and the person who is the subject of the Christian Bible.
I’m more inclined to believe that it’s a case of mis-identification.
The Wolf
Debatable
Interesting. I dont know anything about the matter, but thats the way i was taught it by numerous Rabbonim (on TishaB’Av).
I never realized there was a machlokes about it. Do you happen to know which Meforshim take the other side and whom do they say the Gemorrah is referring to? All the other personalities mentioned there are quite well known.
????? ????? ????? ?????
As well as other Rishonim (such as Rabbainu Tam, but I dont have that in front of me) (BH for Hebrewbooks.org).
It is on page 8 of the PDF
gavra
so whom do those Meforshim say that the Gemorrah is referring to?
A different Yeshu, who was a follower/copycat of Tzaddok & Baiysus.
thanks for the information gavra
It’s not really a matter of dispute.
The person described is a talmud of R. Yehoshua ben Perachia. RYBP lived about two hundred years (give or take a decade or two) before Pontius Pilate. If it is to be assumed that the authors of the Christian Bible got that detail right (and it’s hard to imagine that when the Gospels were written they made an error of three centuries only a single century after the events described).
Likewise, the number of disciples doesn’t match the Gospel story, nor the method of execution nor any of the other major details of the story.
If so, then you’re left with several possibilities:
1. The Christian Bible is utterly wrong about Pontius Pilate, the crucifixion, the apostles, Herod and almost everything else (we’re talking historically, not theologically, of course) in the details of the story. I find this to be highly unlikely. While certainly some of the details may be wrong, I find it hard to believe that so many historical errors could happen.
2. The identification as a student of RYBP is wrong and he was really the talmid of a later tanna. Possible, but for the sake of argument, let’s assume it’s not.
3. The Christian censors assumed the person mentioned in the Gemara is the subject of the Christian Bible and censored the Talmud without any serious investigation. As the years went on, we applied the identification of this person to the subject of the Christian Bible. (That’s my personal take on the matter.)
The Wolf
Baruch T’Heye, Reb Mod.
I generally watch TV while folding laundry. Or knitting. Or sewing. Or washing dishes. It takes me through boring household chores when my husband is at minyan, learning, doing other household chores and the kids are sleeping.
Let me chime in here in place of your good friend mosherose 🙂
You should be listening to a shiur or saying tehillim while doing these activities. It is assur to watch TV, period. Then again, you have no olam habba so shiurim and tehillim are worthless to you. <end sarcasm>
HaQer got it exactly right.
The Rav ZT”L had a TV in his YU apartment. He lived in Boston with his daughter and family after his wife died. He came to NY every Tuesday morning and gave a shiur in the Yeshiva in the morning and at the Moriah Shul (in the upper West Side) for the public on Tuesday nights (which is why it says “ki tov” twice on Yom Shlishi, btw). Then he gave shiur in the Yeshiva on Wednesday and Thursday and afterward went back to Boston.
In the evening the Rav would occasionally put on the TV (which I personally saw there) to see the news and in 1975 to see how the Red Sox were doing in the world series in order to engage his young grandchildren.
Apparently the Rav had no fear of losing his Olam Habah.
I listen to and attend shiurim frequently. I say Tehillim every day. I also watch TV. I sincerely pray that Hashem is cheshboning my good qualities along with the ones that are clearly sending me NOT to Olam Haba, according to some of the poskim.
(and it’s hard to imagine that when the Gospels were written they made an error of three centuries only a single century after the events described).”
The gospels cannot even agree among THEMSELVES as to what happened. Weren’t they written decades after the fact, anyway?
Re the Rav and TV: a lot of people of that era had a TV for the news and sports, v’zehu. I would say that the advertising wasn’t so bad then but TV was already heading towards cesspoolville then. Still, it was a simpler time. I would bet that most people who had TVs back in the day would not have them now if they were raising their kids.
The gospels cannot even agree among THEMSELVES as to what happened. Weren’t they written decades after the fact, anyway?
Yes, that’s true. The Gospels do disagree with each other about details of the events and they were written decades after the fact. But it’s still very difficult to believe that they would make a mistake of 200 years or so regarding who was ruling over Eretz Yisroel at the time.
It’s akin to someone today writing a story about the Depression and stating that the president at the time was John Adams. You may not know that Herbert Hoover was the president, but you certainly aren’t going to pick a president from 200 years earlier. Likewise, even if the authors of the Christian Bible got the identification of whoever ruled EY at the time wrong, it’s unlikely they’d pick someone who was off by 200 or so years.
The Wolf
um…i may be way off here…but this thread was not started as a review of the tuvia singer site…so I’m going to respond to the OP.
setting the gospel aside…and getting back to TV. let’s set aside the issues of prizus, nivul peh, wrong hashkafah, issurei mideoraisa, and bitul torah…lets look at this from a purely practical standpoint. let’s set aside all the quibbling. whatever you’re watching on TV, you are taking time out of your day to watch whatever it is you’re watching. let’s give a conservative estimate…i would say that it is reasonable to assume that a person would watch 2 hours of TV a day at minimum. think about this…assuming you have a 9-5 job. i think that’s a reasonable assumption. so you wake up at 6:30, daven at 7:00 eat breakfast from 7:45 to 8:00-15, then travel to work. you get back from work at around 6:00-30.
now here is where it gets interesting. assuming you have a family, you have to eat dinner with them. so lets say when you get home at 6:30 your wife is preparing dinner in the kitchen. are you going to watch TV now? you have some time…will you abandon your wife for a TV when you haven’t seen each other all day? if yes, you have problems. if no…let’s move on. so you spend a half an hour to 45 minutes with your wife in the kitchen either helping her or keeping her company while she prepares dinner. it is now 7:15. your kids come down for dinner. dinner lasts for 45 minutes. OK…8:00. dinner is over. your wife is now clearing up. this process takes 15 minutes. do you leave her? or help her? leave her? you have problems…help her or keep her company? good job. let’s move on. 8:15.
now it’s about time your small children go to bed. it’s getting late…and putting them to bed is a rather long and tedious process. can’t watch TV now…time to help the kids into bed! so you move about from room to room, helping your kids change, telling them bedtime stories, singing to them, sitting with the kid who is afraid of the dark…it is now 9:15. you see what’s happening here? if yes, you’re good. if not…keep reading.
now that the younger kids are in bed, the older kids have run of the house. your 14 year old daughter is breaking her head on her historiah homework, and calls you over for help. so you sit down, and being the good father you are you help her with her homework, and ask her about her day. it is now 10:00.
you wander off to get the older kids to sleep. 10:15. the day is over, now it’s only you and your wife awake. you have to be asleep at 11:00 to be up and refreshed for the next day. 2 hours of TV? really?!? WHERE?!? notice i left learning COMPLETELY out of the equation…WHERE DO YOU FIND THE TIME?!?
let’s go from a different tack. suppose you aren’t a father, or you have only 1 low maintenance kid. i’ll explain to you my experience. i didnt have a TV for most of my childhood. but in truth, when you’re in elementary school, as a kid you have plenty of free time anyway, so watching TV is not that much of an issue. (purely from a practical standpoint, it is even worse for an elementary school student to be watching TV, i call on any Toras Emes Kaminetz students to back me up on this) then you go to highschool. regents…mishmar…homework…where do you have the time?!? you don’t. fast forward to when you leave yeshiva for good. i’m there right now.
while i was in high school, i got REALLY hooked on movies. i am a natural born multitasker, to the point that unless i am doing 3 things at once…i am genuinely bored. in 11th grade, i had 2 TeraBytes of movies stored on my computer. that’s a little more than 2000 movies. i used to watch movies when i did everything. if i was doing homework…a movie was on one of my screen. fast forward back to the present. i am now out of yeshiva. i continued watching movies just to pass the time. i didnt have a job at the time. then i got one, and still i watched movies. i never innovated, i never had a motivation to learn more about my profession, because to do that would be to take my attention off teh movie, and instead have to devote my complete attention to one thing–a book, or an adobe program.
october of this year i accepted a deal with my chavrusa where he stopped smoking and i stopped watching movies. my productivity increased, and i learned way more about my profession. i became involved in many projects, and i learned much about graphic design. fast forward to june 22. i lost my high speed internet and am now on dial up. i now know how to do flash animations. you see what i’m getting at? if yes, you’re good. if not…well…i can’t help you.
i now know how to do flash animations
You now make movies instead of watching them?
nice post bomb
also
even given the very best and most moral programming,
would you invite a stam goy into your house, a nicely dressed well spoken person, perhaps a religious church goer who is always polite and kind.
invite them to sit in your livingroom every day for two hours and speak to your children, no proselytizing of course, just to speak to them, perhaps about daily events in his life, about his thoughts, his aspirations, his values, his beliefs, his entertainments. every day, for hours, over and over, day after day, pouring his mindset into your children’s receptive fresh minds, as they sit mesmerized, their minds absorbing like a sponge.
well, would you?
I watched quite a few episodes of House Hunters about first time homebuyers before we bought our house. It was very informative.
And who watches 2 hours of TV a night?
Our current schedule:
Up at 5, everyone ready for the day at 7. Leave – husband drops kids at daycare and goes to work, I go to the bus to work. Husband picks the kids up and we all meet back at the house at 6 pm. Make dinner, eat dinner, bath, bedtime. Its 8:30. Clean up from dinner, do some household chores, shower. Its almost 10 pm. Most nights no TV, some nights TV.
Seriously, who has 2 hours a day to watch TV?
who has 2 hours a day to watch TV?
very many people who have tvs in their house.
congratulations to you though
SJSinNYC, then you are doing it right 😀
thank you Mod 80 😀
I know a lot of people with TVs in their house and most do NOT watch 2 hours a night. At least once they have kids.
Maybe 2 hours on a sunday afternoon or something. Or a sick day. Or a season finale.
I should ammend that – when I do a lot of housework (like folding laundry, sewing, dusting in the bedroom stuff like that), I do watch 2 hours. While going about my work. It entertains me.
surely there are other less objectionable forms of entertainment.
Not if I don’t watch objectionable shows.
I know a lot of people with TVs in their house and most do NOT watch 2 hours a night. At least once they have kids.
well that sure proves your point that most people dont watch 2 hours of tv a night
Baseball Tonight from 10-11PM on ESPN. Gives you a wrap up of every game and updates on those in progress. When I have to give din v’cheshbon, I am confident that HKB”H will be fine with that(and of course the Giant games on Sunday afternoons in the winter…).
Kol Yisroel Yesh lahem chelek etc…
means that L’chatchilah every Jew by virtue of his Jewishness has a chelek to start with. Whether or not he can hold onto that chelek depends on his actions in life. That’s how I understand this line.
the shows you watch may not be objectionable…or they may be and you’re biased…but why not just get rid of the nisayon? why have something in your house that so easily can be used to watch objectionable content?
one button on your remote…
the shows you watch may not be objectionable…or they may be and you’re biased…but why not just get rid of the nisayon? why have something in your house that so easily can be used to watch objectionable content?
one button on your remote…
the sites you visit may not be objectionable…or they may be and you’re biased…but why not just get rid of the nisayon? why have something in your house that so easily can be used to watch objectionable content?
one URL in your your address bar…
The Wolf
Wolf, true. But two wrongs don’t make a right. And anyone here presumably (I sure hope) is using a filter on the net.
Wolf, true. But two wrongs don’t make a right. And anyone here presumably (I sure hope) is using a filter on the net.
Ah, yes. But the objectionable content available on the web is far worse than anything you could ever find on television. If anything, I think you’re safer with a regular broadcast TV than you are on the web.
The Wolf
You missed both points.
1. Even so, another bad thing does in no way justify a “less bad” thing.
2. The web can be filtered (i.e. YeshivaNet)
Mod-80, as opposed to all the brilliant studies quoted before in this thread?
Helpful, I see no reason to get rid of it. My Rav has no problem with me having a TV and watching proper programming.
I dont believe your assertion that “My Rav has no problem with me having a TV”, and I’m certain you will have excuses why you cant name such alleged Rav if I were to challange you to.
Mod-80, as opposed to all the brilliant studies quoted before in this thread?
According to the A.C. Nielsen Co., the average American watches more than 4 hours of TV each day (or 28 hours/week, or 2 months of nonstop TV-watching per year). In a 65-year life, that person will have spent 9 years glued to the tube.
Percentage of households that possess at least one television: 99
Number of TV sets in the average U.S. household: 2.2
Percentage of U.S. homes with three or more TV sets: 66
Number of hours per day that TV is on in an average U.S. home: 6 hours, 47 minutes
Percentage of Americans that regularly watch television while eating dinner: 66
Number of hours of TV watched annually by Americans: 250 billion
this is not big news, pretty much everyone is aware that television occupies a prime role in the life of most americans
Bombmaniac: Your decision to stop watching movies is inspirational, and your switch to dial-up is refreshing. I wish you loads of success.
i appreciate the credit for the movies, but for the dial up i deserve none 😀 I’m on dial up because the neighbour i usually share with has gone to the country for the summer 😀
Wolf: do you have a TV? do you have internet? if the answer to both is yes…well then…at least you’re consistent…the internet CAN be filtered…it can be used for shopping, it can be used for shiurim…it can be used for work…it can be used for schoolwork. true there are nisyonos involved, and great nisyonos at that! but i challenge you to find me one justification for televisions whereas i can find hundreds for internet. to give you one example…i am a graphic designer, and web designer…i’ll repeat that…web designer…i make parnassah off the internet. there is a justification. you can argue that maybe a career change is in order, but this is what i got good at. and it gives me what i need. now ask yourself…is there any such use for television? can you make a living of watching television? didn’t think so.
moreover, you are justifying use of television with use of the internet. what if i told you that suicide bombers are justified because they also rape women?
Helpful, I don’t give out the name of my personal Rav on here. I don’t need to prove anything to you. I know it, and that’s fine with me.
LOL Mod80, I know the studies. However, that’s the average American. I would say the average frum person who has a TV in their house, watches less TV than 2 hours a day.
As I said, I’m sure you have an excuse. Of course you have no compunctions claiming he allegedly says so, you just have compunctions verifying such claimed allegations. If you have no need to prove anything, you were free to never claim what you cannot back up. You shouldn’t be surprised that the veracity is questioned.
is the amount really relevant SJSinNYC??? (i hope this doesn’t get edited, because it makes a strong point) would you say that pornography is not that bad if only watched 5 minutes a day?
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