- This topic has 94 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Whether practising a divergent custom from the prevalent view in a private minyan of your own is permitted or not, appears to be a machlokes between Rav Elyashiv and the Gra. Rav Elyashiv holds that wearing Tefillin in a private minyan is Assur. The Gra clearly held that it is not Lo Sisgodadu to hold a private Minyan of not-wearing Tefillin in a yes-wearing Tefillin city. Thus, the Gra held that a private Minyan is called B’tzin’a.
I have posted here the relevant T’shuva of R’ Moshe. I have put the words that we have been trying to draw attention to in brackets.
?’ ???? ?????? ????”? ??”? ????? ????? ?????? ????”? ???”? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????”? ?????? ???”? ?? ????? ?????? ????”?, ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ??? ???????? ?????? ???”? ??????? ????”? ????? ??”? ??”? ?? ?????? ?????? ????”? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ????? ?????? ????”?, ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?”? [??? ????] ????? ????? ????? ?”? ?? ???? ????? ????????, ??? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ?”? ?”? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ?”? ?”? ??????? ???? ????? ????????? ??? ?????. ??? ?”? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???, ??? ???? ???????? ???????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??????, [??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????] ???? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ?”? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????.
K’hal Adas Yeshurun of Beitar is not largely Baalei Tshuva and Geirim. I think whoever made such a rash statement should visit there, as I have.
In the KAYJ of Ramot, one may wear Tefillin in the Ezras Nashim as I have seen visitors and members doing. And the reason has more to do with the shul not having its own building, but rather it is a bomb shelter in an apartment building, hardly separate from the general community. I should know, I have visited there frequently.
I have visited Erlau on CHM twice a year and everyone davens Nusach Ashkenaz. Most of the Tefillin-wearers are descendants of the Rav and the others (and it is more than ten) told the Rav at one time, that if it is good enough for the Rav, it is good enough for them. You may imagine if you like, but I would suggest visiting instead of imagining.
There are two Yekkishe minyanim in Kiryat Sefer. One of them, run by Rabbi Goldschmidt, one cannot wear Tefillin in the main shul. In the second, run by Rav Neumann, Tefillin on CHM is the norm and it is done in the shul itself.
Rav Scheinberg was not talking about Bnei Chu”l. He was talking about residents of Jerusalem.
I seriously doubt that Rav Ulman forbade Tefillin on CHM for the Goldschmidt shul in KS when he permitted it for the Viener shul in Jerusalem. It must have been someone else.
The Tshuvos of Rav Yitzchak Karo (there are only two) are at the end of the volume. Siman 1 discusses what to do when the poskim and the chachmei kabbalah are at odds with each other. Tefillin on CHM is used as an example. See the Sefer at: http://hebrewbooks.org/1838 on page 385 (page 404 of the PDF)
Rainus: You cannot invent a new shita from a story about the Gra.
I have davened in KAJ-Beitar as well as spoken there on Fri night and I know most of the members personally. My observation, confirmed by one of the organizers of the minyan, is that the majority may have families that originated in Germany/Switzerland generations ago but few of them have fathers who wear tefillin at all. Would you like to go over the list of regular mispalelim name by name?
I have heard from numerous sources intimately involved in the Yekke shuls that Ramot does NOT wear tefillin CHM based on R’ Elyashiv’s psak.
My neighbor Deutch is a chossid of Erloi and tells me that his family and the vast majority of Erloi do NOT daven Ashkenaz. I still need to ask him how many wear tefillin.
R’ S. Z. Ulman forbade KS from wearing tefillin.
Thank you for the quote of R’ Yitzchak Karo. now I understand that “therefore…” in your original post was your own words and not a continuation of his quote. BTW, it a strange statement he makes to say that minhag sfarad follows the Rosh in all matters, any ba’al halacha knows this is not true.
hello99:
“strange statement he makes to say that minhag sfarad follows the Rosh in all matters, any ba’al halacha knows this is not true.”
Not strange if you know the background and history.
Rabbeinu Osher, the ??”?, went to Spain from Germany, established a German style Ashkenaz Yeshiva there and had a great hashpo’oh on the Sepharadim.
Those who know minhogim are aware of this. Moroccan minhogim, especially, ad hayom hazeh, have the influence of the ??”? and ????? imprinted on them.
I am very aware of history as well as Sefardi minhagim. However while it is true to say that the Rosh “influenced” Sefardi minhagim as you write, R’ Yitzchak Karo writes that “all of Spain follows the Rosh for all dinim and all Issur v’Heter”. This statement is strange. Sefardi minhag follows the Rif, Rambam, Ramban and Rashba much more closely then the Rosh. The Beis Yosef in his introduction famously writes that he generally follows the majority of the 3 pillars of halacha: the Rif, Rambam and Rosh. Since the Rambam writes in his hakdama to Mishna Torah that he argues on the Rif in less then 8 places, the Rosh is usually outnumbered.
Whether the fathers of mispallelim in Beitar’s KAJ wear Tefillin at all, should not be anybody’s concern, unless he needs to be motzi laaz on someone. Perhaps you should make this the topic of your next speech there, as well as a public apology.
In any case, my father wore Tefillin on CHM as well as my grandfather. But not because they were Ashkenazim, as I try to be. In fact, my great-grandfather and his father did not put Tefillin on CHM. They were Stoliner Chassidim. Rather my grandfather came to Canada in the mid-20s and decided that anybody who goes without Tefillin there for a whole week will become a goy. Thankfully, he remained a yid.
I have returned my family to the way of Ashkenaz which was the case for generations before Chassidus, for all its benefits and good sides, discontinued a lot of time-honoured and hallowed traditions.
If the Beitar KAJ mispallelim are returning to the true way of their ancestors, I bless them with success, and may all of the Jewish People follow in their footsteps and not just jump on the kabbalistic bandwagon without understanding why they’re doing what. The ikar of a kabbalistic practice is to solidify a kabbalistic idea in your soul. If the idea is lost, the action is largely wasted. In Ashkenaz, the shitah was to refrain from practising publicly any custom that has only kabbalistic explanations. Thus, the Sefaradic kabbalistic and chassidic eras had little or no effect on Minhag Ashkenaz, which is now returning slowly to the forefront of Jewish life, spearheaded by the indomitable Rabbi Hambuger of Bnei Brak.
Rainus: I feel bad for you that you have run out constructive points to make and must resort to attempts at personal insults. The topic of discussion was largely based on conflict between “minhag hamakom” and “minhag avos”. If one does NOT have any minhag avos there would be NO heter to violate minhag hamakom.
If your family was originally from Stolin then they were never Ashkenazim/German Jews, rather they were Litvaks. So you have not “returned my family to the way of Ashkenaz”, as minhag Lita has many significant differences from minhag Ashkenaz.
I am shocked by your rant against the “kabbalistic bandwagon”. Are you aware that the Magan Avraham and many other Gedolei HaAchronim quote extensively from kisvei haArizal and their words are nearly unanimously accepted by all Ashkenazi Jews and have been for many hundreds of years.
I clarified with my Erloi neighbor the conduct in the Erloi Beis Medrash. In Erloi in Beitar tefillin are only put on at home before davening and not in shul at all. In Yerusholaim, the Rebbe has always worn tefillin in the Ezras Nashim or Sukka with a minyan of just 10 men accompanying him. In recent years a number of bochurim have jumped at the opportunity to daven with their Rebbe in a small group and joined bringing the numbers a little higher. However the Rebbe considers himself to be wearing tefillin in private and tefillin are never worn in the Beis Medrash by anyone.
Despite the words of Teshuvos Divrei Chaim, Tzanzer bochurim do NOT wear tefillin in EY. The Divrei Yatziv writed that minhag EY trumps even a teshuva from the Divrei Chaim and their long-standing minhag.
Additionally, not wearing tefillin CHM is not only based on Kabbala. It is the opinion of the Tosafos, Raavad and Rashba predating the popularity of Kabbala, and the Teshuvos HaRashba testifies that the minhag was NOT to wear tefillin CHM, not like the Beis Yosef’s uncle.
hello99 to Rainus: “If your family was originally from Stolin then they were never Ashkenazim/German Jews, rather they were Litvaks. So you have not “returned my family to the way of Ashkenaz”, as minhag Lita has many significant differences from minhag Ashkenaz.”
If he is an Ashkenazic Jew that means he has roots in Ashkenaz, and he therefore is going back to his roots.
“my father wore Tefillin on CHM as well as my grandfather. But not because they were Ashkenazim, as I try to be”
Ashkenazi is a generic term referring to Northern European Jews and indicates nothing about Germanic origin. Just as most Sefardim have nothing to do with Spain.
hello99: “Ashkenazi is a generic term referring to Northern European Jews and indicates nothing about Germanic origin. Just as most Sefardim have nothing to do with Spain.”
Not correct.
Ashkenazic Jews have roots, somewhere down the line, in Ashkenaz (Germany). That is why they are called Ashkenazim, even if they or their parents came from Poland, Lithuania, Russia, or Hungary and never stepped foot in Germany. Because, if you know history, the Yidden migrated from Germany to Eastern Europe due to various persecutions over a long period of time, spanning centuries. So even if they never were there, if you go back generations, you will see that they have a connection to Ashkenaz. That is why the Yidden of Eastern Europe speak Yiddish (Judisch-Deutsch), which is basically a medieval German dialect mixed with some Jewish words and a small amount of Slavic words in some versions. Because they shtam (are descended from) Ashkenaz, if you go back in time.
Authentic Sepharadim have a similiar kesher to Spain.
hello99: “R’ Yitzchak Karo writes that “all of Spain follows the Rosh for all dinim and all Issur v’Heter”. This statement is strange. Sefardi minhag follows the Rif, Rambam, Ramban and Rashba much more closely then the Rosh. The Beis Yosef in his introduction famously writes that he generally follows the majority of the 3 pillars of halacha: the Rif, Rambam and Rosh. Since the Rambam writes in his hakdama to Mishna Torah that he argues on the Rif in less then 8 places, the Rosh is usually outnumbered.”
I think that R. Karo knew ????? ???? better than you. You are thinking about the way of the Shulchan Aruch. R. Karo was describing the matzav before that.
Bear in mind as well, that the Rif was in Morocco and the Rambam in Egypt, while the Rosh was in ????.
hello99: “Additionally, not wearing tefillin CHM is not only based on Kabbala. It is the opinion of the Tosafos, Raavad and Rashba predating the popularity of Kabbala, and the Teshuvos HaRashba testifies that the minhag was NOT to wear tefillin CHM, not like the Beis Yosef’s uncle. “
The Ritva says to wear tefillin chol hamoed, as does the Meiri, Rosh, Ohr Zarua, Maharam miRotenberg, and Smak.
MHY: “Ashkenazic Jews have roots, somewhere down the line, in Ashkenaz (Germany)”
Actually there were “Ashkenazi” communities in France, Italy and Austria as far back in history as the ones in Germany. Anyways, there were established communities in Eastern Europe 500 years ago. Why should someone drop 5 centuries of minhagim because his ancestors may have briefly sojourned in Germany previously? And if you want to follow only “original” minhagim, go farther back to Bavel and EY???
“Authentic Sepharadim have a similar kesher to Spain”
Not true. The community in Bavel even had yeshivos that were open consecutively from before the destruction of the First Beis HaMikdash until Saddam Hussein closed them. Similarly Egypt had a community during the time of the Bayis Sheini. Neither of them originated in Spain, but they are referred to as “sefardim”.
I think the Rashba knew minhagei Sefarad as well, and he writes that they did NOT wear tefillin. Remember the Beis Yosef left Spain 5 years old while the Rambam was born and raised there and only move to Egypt later in life. The fact is that anyone familiar with minhagei Sefarad knows that they do NOT consistently follow the Rosh, who only moved to Spain after his children were grown and married unlike Marcus Lehman.
I am aware that many Rishonim hold tefillin is not worn CHM. My point was that those who do not wear did not ORIGINATE from Kaballa.
hello99: “Actually there were “Ashkenazi” communities in France, Italy and Austria as far back in history as the ones in Germany. Anyways, there were established communities in Eastern Europe 500 years ago. Why should someone drop 5 centuries of minhagim because his ancestors may have briefly sojourned in Germany previously? And if you want to follow only “original” minhagim, go farther back to Bavel and EY???”
The ikkar yishuv of Ashkenazic Jewry, the spiritual center, was in Germany. That is where Rabbeinu Gershom Meor hagolah and those who followed after him were. We refer to ourselves as Ashkenazim for a reason. In the kinnos of tisha be’Av we recall what happened in Vermayza, Shpira and Magentza (????? ??”?). Why? What shaychus do they have to us, most Ashkenazic Jews who are not considered ‘Yekkes’? Answer : As the poskim bring, we are ???? ?????, we are descended from Ashkenaz. While there were some Ashkenazic Jews that lived elsewhere, the main yishuv in the old days was in Ashkenaz.
“Anyways, there were established communities in Eastern Europe 500 years ago.”
Eastern Europe five hundred years ago was still shvach compared to what developed there later. By the way, can you name one rishon from Poland?
“Why should someone drop 5 centuries of minhagim because his ancestors may have briefly sojourned in Germany previously?”
If that person is an Ashkenazic Jew he is connected to minhogei Ashkenaz. Ashkenazic Yidden in Eastern Europe were connected to Ashkenaz. When they moved they took minhogei Ashkenaz with them. However, over time, some minhogim got lost, forgotten, and changed. In Ashkenaz they kept the old minhogim better.
” And if you want to follow only “original” minhagim, go farther back to Bavel and EY???”
Actually it is believed by scholars that minhogei Ashkenaz come from Eretz Yisroel.
hello99: “”Authentic Sepharadim have a similar kesher to Spain”
Not true. The community in Bavel even had yeshivos that were open consecutively from before the destruction of the First Beis HaMikdash until Saddam Hussein closed them. Similarly Egypt had a community during the time of the Bayis Sheini. Neither of them originated in Spain, but they are referred to as “sefardim”.”
Note that I wrote authentic Sepharadim. Sepharadim means Jews from Spain. Middle Eastern Jews that were not in Spain (or not descended from such) are not Sepharadim. There is a different term that is used for them, namely ‘edot hamizrach’. It is an error to refer to them as Sepharadim. They have different minhogim. In fact, there were clashes between them and the Sepharadim, esp. after the Sepharadim had to leave Spain and moved into countries where they lived, due to different practices. There are teshuvos about such things.
hello99: “I think the Rashba knew minhagei Sefarad as well, and he writes that they did NOT wear tefillin. Remember the Beis Yosef left Spain 5 years old while the Rambam was born and raised there and only move to Egypt later in life. The fact is that anyone familiar with minhagei Sefarad knows that they do NOT consistently follow the Rosh, who only moved to Spain after his children were grown and married unlike Marcus Lehman.”
The Rashba lived a long time before R. Yitzchak Karo. R. Karo described the matzav he saw and knew, and he says they followed the Rosh. Do you know better than him? Were you there?
Re the Rambam, the point is where he wrote his seforim, not where he lived as a youngster. He wrote the Mishna Torah in Egypt, long after leaving Spain.
MHY: “The ikkar yishuv of Ashkenazic Jewry, the spiritual center, was in Germany. That is where Rabbeinu Gershom Meor hagolah and those who followed after him were”
Actually in the times of Rashi and the Baalei Tosafos there were more people and Talmidei Chachomim in France.
“Eastern Europe five hundred years ago was still shvach compared to what developed there later. By the way, can you name one rishon from Poland?”
500 years ago was NOT the Rishonim. Frankly I am shocked at your condescending tone toward the communities of Eastern Europe in the 1500’s that gave rise to the Rema, Levush, Bach, Sma, Maharam Lublin, Maharsha, Maharal, Shela HaKadosh etc
“In Ashkenaz they kept the old minhogim better.”
Dream on.
“The Rashba lived a long time before R. Yitzchak Karo”
My point exactly. The original minhag in Sefarad was NOT to wear tefillin, long before the Zohar was even discovered.
The bottom line is it is impossible to determine that one set of minhagim is “superior” to the others, and each individual should continue following his minhag avos unless it conflicts with minhag hamakom.
MHY: It seems you have conceded the point that minhag hamakom in Yerusholaim is NOT to wear tefillin and that it is assur in public, correct.
Hello99 has made some very valid points. The minhag in Spain was indeed not to wear tefillin on chol hamoed long before the Zohar was even discovered.
The Zohar was composed by a Tanna. Your text has been duly corrected.
hello99: “MHY: “The ikkar yishuv of Ashkenazic Jewry, the spiritual center, was in Germany. That is where Rabbeinu Gershom Meor hagolah and those who followed after him were”
Actually in the times of Rashi and the Baalei Tosafos there were more people and Talmidei Chachomim in France.”
There are more Jews in the USA now than were in Poland, Hungary or Russia. But we still look back to our roots in Europe nevertheless.
“”Eastern Europe five hundred years ago was still shvach compared to what developed there later. By the way, can you name one rishon from Poland?”
500 years ago was NOT the Rishonim. Frankly I am shocked at your condescending tone toward the communities of Eastern Europe in the 1500’s that gave rise to the Rema, Levush, Bach, Sma, Maharam Lublin, Maharsha, Maharal, Shela HaKadosh etc”
You missed the point, which was that Poland’s Yiddishe yishuv was younger than that of Ashkenaz. There were great gedolim there, but they didn’t equal the rishonim of Ashkenaz.
“”In Ashkenaz they kept the old minhogim better.”
Dream on.”
It is true, fact.
“”The Rashba lived a long time before R. Yitzchak Karo”
My point exactly. The original minhag in Sefarad was NOT to wear tefillin, long before the Zohar was even discovered.”
As pointed out earlier, the Ritva, one of the gedolei Sefarad of that time, advocated tefillin on chol hamoed.
Rav Yitzchok Karo knew what he was talking about, he was there and you weren’t.
“The bottom line is it is impossible to determine that one set of minhagim is “superior” to the others”
Incorrect. Not all minhogim all equal. There are different levels of minhogim and we have expressions among the poskim reflecting this, such as ???? ???????, ???? ??????, ??????? ???? ????, ????? ????,
“and each individual should continue following his minhag avos unless it conflicts with minhag hamakom.”
Yes, they should continue to put on tefillin on chol hamoed, even in Eretz Yisroel, where, despite claims by some, there is no one minhag hamokom, due to the diverse population with multiple botei dinin. 🙂
hello99: “MHY: It seems you have conceded the point that minhag hamakom in Yerusholaim is NOT to wear tefillin and that it is assur in public, correct.”
No.
Please don’t put words in my mouth.
MHY: “There are more Jews in the USA now than were in Poland, Hungary or Russia. But we still look back to our roots in Europe nevertheless”
You missed MY point. I am challenging your assertion the the “roots” were in Germany. I mentioned Rashi and the dozens of Baalei Tosafos to prove that in the early part of the Rishonim from about 1050 on the majority of the talmidei chachomim and yeshivos were located in France NOT Germany. You claimed that 100 years earlier the primary roots were in Germany, but you did not mention a single name other then Rabbeinu Gershom to support your hypothesis. Actually, even Rabbeinu Gershom himself was originally from Metz, which is in France!!!
“””In Ashkenaz they kept the old minhogim better.”
Dream on.”
It is true, fact”
Your saying so does not make it a fact. Can you prove in any way that Yekkeske minhagim are more “authentic”??? I demonstrated in a different thread that the minhag of unmarried men wearing a talis is a relatively new innovation, the Maharil, Rokeach and Rosh, all Rishonim from Germany, write that the minhag was not to wear them. Also waiting 3 hours after meat has no basis in Halacha or minhag, in fact the German poskim over the centuries all write that the minhag was to wait 6 hours, including Rav Hirsch in Chorev.
“Incorrect. Not all minhogim all equal. There are different levels of minhogim and we have expressions among the poskim reflecting this, such as ???? ???????, ???? ??????, ??????? ???? ????, ????? ????”
Now you do it again. you are calling the minhagim of Lita and Poland minhag shtus. WATCH YOUR MOUTH!!!
“in Eretz Yisroel there is no one minhag hamokom due to the diverse population with multiple botei dinin”
I have already disproved this spurious allegation at length.
“You missed the point, which was that Poland’s Yiddishe yishuv was younger than that of Ashkenaz”
Do you think that because they were younger they upped and corrupted all the minhagim their fathers followed precisely for hundreds of years???
Hello99 to ME “If your family was originally from Stolin then they were never Ashkenazim/German Jews, rather they were Litvaks. So you have not “returned my family to the way of Ashkenaz”, as minhag Lita has many significant differences from minhag Ashkenaz.”
Minhag Lita is a variation of Minhag Ostreich (or Minhag Polin as it is called today). If my family was from Stlolin, there is no way to know if my family was originally from Lita, Polin, Russia or Ashkenaz, because the chasidim changed the Nusach and a host of other minhagim along the way. My father observes a cholent of Minhagim from Stolin, Lita, Ashkenaz (because my mother is a Yekke). Therefore, he suggested to me to select a coordinated and consistent set of Minhagim from an established Kehilla in Klal Yisrael. After much research, I discovered that Minhag Ashkenaz is the best specimen. And so I adopted it.
Hello99 to ME: “I am shocked by your rant against the “kabbalistic bandwagon”. Are you aware that the Magan Avraham and many other Gedolei HaAchronim quote extensively from kisvei haArizal and their words are nearly unanimously accepted by all Ashkenazi Jews and have been for many hundreds of years.”
Nowhere in those Acharonim is the stipulation that you must follow their words. Obviously, one who comprehends the spirit of the Kabbalistic suggestion, can then incorporate its practice in his daily life. But those who practise a mode of behaviour that has no explanation, except Kabbalistic, to which they are not privy, are merely fooling themselves into thinking that they are doing like the Ari HaKadosh.
Hello99 wrote: “I clarified with my Erloi neighbor the conduct in the Erloi Beis Medrash. In Erloi in Beitar tefillin are only put on at home before davening and not in shul at all. In Yerusholaim, the Rebbe has always worn tefillin in the Ezras Nashim or Sukka with a minyan of just 10 men accompanying him.”
However, the door between the Minyonim is always open (between the Sukka and the Beis Medrash) and the chazan (wearing Tefilin) for Shacharis and Hallel stands in the doorway as chazan for both Minyonim.
Hello 99 wrote: “Actually there were “Ashkenazi” communities in France, Italy and Austria as far back in history as the ones in Germany. Anyways, there were established communities in Eastern Europe 500 years ago. Why should someone drop 5 centuries of minhagim because his ancestors may have briefly sojourned in Germany previously? And if you want to follow only “original” minhagim, go farther back to Bavel and EY???”
The Ashkenazi community of Germany (including Holland and Alsace-Lorraine) is a continuation of the communities of Italy. Rabbeinu Moshe ben Kalonymus of Lucca (passed away 4650) was brought by Emperor Charlemagne to Mainz to restart the Jewish settlement. Rabbeinu Tam (??”? ??? ???? ???? ??) voiced this sentiment about the two Torah-famous cities in Italy of Bari and Otranto. ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?’ ???????
In the Siddur of Rabbeinu Shlomo of Worms (lived during period of 1st Crusade-4856) he considers the customs of France and England to be inferior). It is no wonder that Rashi, who was born and served the community in France, nevertheless learned in Germany for there was the seat of Torah.
The Jewish community of Austria is relatively recent in these terms, having been started only after the expulsion of French Jewry in 5154 (the community in Germany was already established 500 years previously).
Regarding Bavel and E”Y, the Minhagim of Ashkenaz synthesize the Minhagim of Bavel and E”Y. The “Ashkenaz” community of Italy followed the Minhag E”Y exclusively until Abu Aharon came from Bavel to Italy and taught Rabbeinu Moshe of Lucca (mentioned above) the Kavanos of the Prayers. Thereafter, much of Minhag Bavel was incorporated. Nevertheless, many Minhagei E”Y were kept for special occasions. For example, the saying of ????? ???? ????? ????? instead of ?????? ?????? ????? was the Minhag E”Y for the whole year, regardless if there were Kohanim present or not. This Minhag was preserved for instances when there were Kohanim on Yom Tov. Saying ??? ??? ????? ?????? instead of ??? ????? in Maariv was said in E”Y every day. This is preserved for instances when the piyyutim of Maaravis are said.
Thus, Minhag Ashkenaz is certainly the most authentic and communities still exist that practise it.
Hello99 wrote: “Not true. The community in Bavel even had yeshivos that were open consecutively from before the destruction of the First Beis HaMikdash until Saddam Hussein closed them. Similarly Egypt had a community during the time of the Bayis Sheini. Neither of them originated in Spain, but they are referred to as “sefardim”.”
I do not know where you got the idea about the Yeshivos of Bavel because it contradicts a Gemara in Sukka (see ?????? ???”? ????? ?’ ?”?). And there certainly have not been Gedolei HaPoskim all that time in Iraq. The fact that Egypt had a a community does not say anything about if they has Yeshivos.
Hello99 wrote: “Also waiting 3 hours after meat has no basis in Halacha or minhag,”
Waiting 3 hours after meat is a chumra. It is a chumra on the Minhag of waiting 1 hour after meat, which does have a Mesora. In fact, many Rishonim in Ashkenaz held that no waiting is necessary at all. Therefore, 3 hours is certainly enough for members of those communities.
For personal reasons, I did not change from my six-hour wait, although I am not makpid on my children.
Rainus: I don’t have time to debunk each tangential point you raise, but I will make my main arguments.
1) You have not mentioned a single name of a Rishon born in Germany before Rashi and the Baalei Tosafos, who were in France, to support your assumption that the community and Yeshivos in Germany preceded them.
2) Even if the community in Germany did predate the other European communities, there is no proof or logical reason to assume that Frankfort or any of the other German cities preserved the original minhagim more accurately then the communities that migrated to Central and Eastern Europe. Why should we assume everyone who moved to Poland and Lithuania wantonly chucked all their traditions overboard even before Chassidus and all those who remained in Germany faithfully preserved the “authentic” traditions without deviating by a hairsbreadth? And we see that each city in Germany had it’s own minhagim, how do you know if Frankfort, Hamburg etc is the “true” tradition?
3) I proved by the way of examples (3 hours and talis, and Kabbalas Shabbos can be added to the list) that the German communities did NOT preserve their traditions completely unchanged (regardless if 3 hours is a chumra or kula, it is certainly a change). If we see they made these obvious changes it is only logical to assume they also made numerous more subtle deviations. It is much more logical and reasonable to assume that in EVERY community minor discrepancies crept in over the centuries, all of them are valid but none are identical to what was practiced 1000, and certainly not 2000, years ago.
4) Why would the Magen Avraham, who is probably the foremost authoritative sefer on Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim, have written all the things he did just for the fun of it?
Hello99 considers this the first of his main arguments:
“1) You have not mentioned a single name of a Rishon born in Germany before Rashi and the Baalei Tosafos, who were in France, to support your assumption that the community and Yeshivos in Germany preceded them.”
One of my acquaintances is presently working on a Memorbuch for Ashkenazic Jewry. That is, a Memorial book for all the communities in Ashkenaz that suffered persecution since the beginning of the settlement in Mainz until now. This work will also include, where available, a list of every rabbinic personality since Rabbeinu Moshe HaZakein ben Kalonymus of Lucca (who was brought to restart the Ashkenaz settlement in Mainz) until the present day.
Although this is hardly a comprehensive list, I will assemble a list of the Rabbinic personalities that preceded Rashi.
Rashi passed away in 4865, nine years after the massacres of the 1st Crusade.
Rashi learned by three great Rabbanim in Germany: Rabbeinu Yaakov ben Yakar (Worms), Rabbeinu Yitzchak ben Elazar HaLevi (Worms), and Rabbeinu Yitzchak ben Yehudah (Mainz).
These three Rabbanim all learned by the famous Rabbeinu Gershom ben Yehudah of Mainz. Rashi also learned by Rabbeinu Eliezer HaGadol ben Yitzchak of Worms and Mainz.
Rabbeinu Eliezer HaGadol ben Yitzchak learned by his relative Rabbeinu Shimon HaGadol ben Yitzchak, Rabbeinu Gershom ben Yehudah, and Rabbeinu Yehudah ben Meir HaKohen; all of whom were in Mainz.
Rabbeinu Yehudah ben Meir HaKohen himself was a disciple of Rabbeinu Gershom ben Yehudah.
Rabbeinu Shimon HaGadol ben Yitzchak is most famous for his Selichos and Krovos which are an integral part of our liturgy for the Yamim Noraim.
Rabbeinu Gershom ben Yehudah learned by Rabbeinu Yehudah ben Meir HaKohen HaZakein Leontin. He lived in the days of Rabbana Amnon (the author of Unesaneh Tokef), himself from Mainz.
Rabbeinu Shimon HaGadol’s grandfather was called Rabbeinu Abun HaGadol, and he was from Mainz as well.
This all points to well-established Torah academies in Germany, way before Rashi. If you can do the same for France, I would like to see the list.
Could Hello99 elaborate on this question?
“4) Why would the Magen Avraham, who is probably the foremost authoritative sefer on Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim, have written all the things he did just for the fun of it?”
I do not understand what promted this derisive comment?
Hello99 posted the following:
“2) Even if the community in Germany did predate the other European communities, there is no proof or logical reason to assume that Frankfort or any of the other German cities preserved the original minhagim more accurately then the communities that migrated to Central and Eastern Europe. Why should we assume everyone who moved to Poland and Lithuania wantonly chucked all their traditions overboard even before Chassidus and all those who remained in Germany faithfully preserved the “authentic” traditions without deviating by a hairsbreadth? And we see that each city in Germany had it’s own minhagim, how do you know if Frankfort, Hamburg etc is the “true” tradition?”
I suggest that anyone who wishes to get a true appreciation of the authenticity, validity, and authority of Minhag Ashkenaz, to review the Sefer ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????, published by ???? ????? ?????. This will give a much more comprehensive impression than the few comments that I can make on this forum. If the Sefer is unavailable or unobtainable, I will endeavour to obtain a copy for Hello99 if he is interested.
Rainus – ???? ??? for your information. I had stopped writing here earlier after another poster put words in my mouth and did other inappropriate things that according to the ???? in ???? ???? are the characteristics of a ????. In such a case, as Chazal say, ???? ??:? is invoked. Nevertheless, there may be an inyan to respond anyway at times, in case some readers may be confused.
Re preservation of minhogim – No place had all the minhogim exactly but some places had them preserved better than others. Just like if you go into different Shuls and botei medrash today you will see that some have things more in order than others. In some places there is a Rav, Shamas, tzibbur, baalei batim, that are makpid on things, in other places they take a more lackadaisical attitude. The same thing in the past.
The Maharil (Responsa, siman 95) relies on the Rosh that our Mesorah is better than that of others and the Mesorah of others is to be rejected in the face of our own.
Rav Chaim ben Betzalel, the brother of the Maharal, states (in his introduction to Vikuach Mayim Chaim) that even the rulings of the Ramo, representing Minhagei Polin, do not obligate the Bnei Ashkenaz as they have guarded their Minhagim carefully.
On the Aron HaKodesh of Worms was etched the pasuk (M’lachim 1, 19:4) “I am not better than my forefathers”, to serve as a warning not to change the Minhagim by an iota.
The Chavas Yair (M’kor Chaim 66:9) said that Bnei Ashkenaz are healthy like oxen from distortions and ruin in their Minhagim.
The Korban N’sanel (Responsa siman 5) wrote that Minhagei Ashkenaz are based on golden foundations and are better than Minhagei Polin. The great Rabbanim who spread Torah in Yisroel, like the Maharil and Mahariv, set for all generations all the stringencies and Minhagim which we Bnei Ashkenaz are bidden to follow.
Rav Yonasan Eibeschutz (Kreisi Upleisi siman 35) states that the Torah was passed on to the sages of Ashkenaz and what do we know that they knew not?
hi don’t have time to read all the blogs but this rainus fellow is generally right on par. it was stated here that rabbi ulmann of ciryas safer ruled for the yekkes of his city not to make a minyan with tephilin. i was there and he spoke thus unto me; the reason not to make a minyan with tephilin is that ciryas safer is a city with base din echod bo’ear and therefor one may not deviate from the local minhug in anything at all even in the nussach hatefilluh and if one makes a minyan that does not davin ashcenas he is transgressing the prohibition of exactly and possibly even more so then a minyan that puts on tephilin. also he continued and said that in any other city in erretz yissroail one should certainly make a minyin to put on tephilin on chol hamoeed, and he himself personally can not understand anyone today who does not put on tephilin. those were his very words. i think he added that if all the shuls in town do not fallow the same minhug in all and everything there does not apply this prohibition. he also stated the simple fact that there is no such thing as minhug israel, but they are all rather the cholent of people who were not gedoilim. to this i must add with regards to a ignoramy saying mention on this blog earlier that n israel they fallow minhug hagru”h. this is complete and total nonsense no more then the wishful deception of those european followers of the the Spanish and mosterabee minhug. to list the few infamous ones in short; the aforementioned, duchoning, saying pitum hacetoyres, not saying boruch hashem, not saying peeyoutim, chazzen and others not wearing a tallis, saying caddish derahbonon after ayn kaylokaynu, saying cavai before it, doing melochoh as early as they do after shabbos, are all, hock lock and sinker, spanish minhugim. all in all it seems that israel wins hands down the title for worst minhugim. sorry about the brevity.
all in all it seems that israel wins hands down the title for worst minhugim.
I’ll take the Minhugim of E. Yisroel a lot faster than howard the blogger’s opinion of them.
From my husband:
hello99, thank you for properly quoting the Beis Yosef not only b’sheim amro, but also from its proper location. It has bothered me that many people mistakenly attribute these statements to the hakdama of the Shulchan Aruch. Rabbanim have pointed out to me that the Mechaber follows the “big 3” rishonim significantly less consistently in the Shulchan Aruch than in the Beis Yosef. I would love to someday see a kuntres that goes through the Shulchan Aruch methodically to check its consistency with the “big 3”.
hello99 and what is Minhag HaMakom — I must take issue with your statement about minhag hamakom in eretz israel is to not wear tefilin. A minhag hamakom means that all the frum jews have accepted the minhag in a community or area. That is the true definition. While if even a many of people in Israel may follow the custom of not wearing tefilin on Chol Hamoed, certainly there are large portion that still wear on CHM. As stated in previous posts there are even several shuls in Jerusalem area where they do wear on Chol HaMoed, as well as the many who do so privately. So even in Jerusalem this claim is not accurate.
Fact is Israel does not as of yet have a minhag hamakom regarding this. People who make this claim are getting ahead of reality and I think you would have a very hard time proving that at some point in history all the jews of eretz israel had stopped wearing tefilin on Chol HaMoed..
Perhaps it will eventually be that all jews in Israel accept this, but it has not happened yet. So until there is a real minhag hamakom where no one wears tefilin on CHM, the posts that state to follow after ones customs are correct, if you wear, do it either at home or in a shul that does this.
Its is a Mitzvah Draita … and I often am confused how one can be forced to change minhag based on Draita , such as on tefilin on CHM in Israel, yet other minhags drabbanan are forced to keep (such as kitniyot)… in both cases I cited there has never been a minhag hamakom in eretz israel, unlike the 2 days of Rosh Hoshana which is a real minhag hamakom for eretz Israel. ( after Hazal made the Calender, Rosh Hoshana was observed for only 1 day in Eretz Israel, for over 1000 years, until the students of the Gra did cause great influence to change this on their arrival, and eventually all the jews of Eretz Israel accepted it, thus we have 2 days here in Israel, based on Minhag hamakon).
I think your last part of your post is not true.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.