Teachers salaries

It’s tough, first a girl has to endure the degrading shidduch process which favors the boy and then she toils as a Morah for a a minuscule salary
The GOOD NEWS IS – HASHEM IS ON HER SIDE ! Ha-Elokim Yevukash Es Hanirdaf

Dear Thelittle,

In today’s day, there is not a necessity to work full time as soon as a new couple starts their home. For the majority, kollel is like a bridge from yeshiva to settling into a neighborhood and managing parnassah with a Torah lifestyle. According to the tzedakah organizations, there is not a higher percentage of needy kollel families than working families. Statistically this should change with second and third generation kollel families. But kollel is not hereditary.

The idea of boys staying in kollel only for the image, is a myth. Those are the ones that are too insecure to forge their own path. And they start floating through the system at a very young age. He you are advocating on sending them out to the world at fifteen, I totally agree. At twenty five, it is a case of a married man-child. It is a real problem. And staying in a kollel is the easiest way to manage their lack of confidence.

Avira> most who go to work don’t go off, but a significant amount do, and a much bigger amount have a yeridah.

I do not observe this among young professionals I observe, whether yeshivish or MO. Where I saw problems, they typically manifest in high schools or shortly after, due partially influence of school atmosphere, teachers, and parents, but not after. Could you clarify: what is the source of this yeridah, as you observe? what is a typical job, home lifestyle and how does yeridah manifest itself?

Maskim!

Dear Always,

If you do not like it, than do not use it. Call the teacher as often as you wish.

Also gadolhadorah and thelittle- you sound like my mother in law. She also thinks my husband should go find a job (he actually learns at least 12 hours a day). If this is the life we chose why do you care? Why would it bother you if a couple decides that the husband should stay in kollel? No-one is forcing the kind of life they think is right on you so don’t chose for others.

amom,
I don’t think anyone would object to your husband’s and yours dedication to Torah if you are using your own funds or money from someone who dedicated them for that purpose. Kol Hakovod! Your M-I-L may be different as she, understandably, is looking for your benefit and she may be thinking ahead at how your family will live. As Torah is supposed to be sweet for everyone, maybe you can find ways to make your MIL happy with your husband’s learning. Depending on your circumstances, Either invite her as a honored guest when he gives a dvar Torah to public; or start a class for ladies that includes her; or spend 2 out of 12 hours to learn a profession or an internship at some job so that she can see that her grandchildren will have food to eat.

Back to finances, when I said “using your own funds”, there are different views here. My personal view is that this should not include using public funds dedicated for poor people, such as foodstamps, welfare, unemployment, tax credits. Someone who volunteers not to work, for whatever great reason, should not depend on charity, but many people (and here too) disagree.

Amom- since when is learning in kollel ‘not working’? He has hours, schedule, obligation to attend and produce and likely some compensation. If that’s “not working” try selling it to some couch potato who also doesn’t want to work and see if it sells.

Amom,
so you are also blessed with MIL who helps you with money. Baruch Hashem. I don’t think this is irony that she gives more to the other siblings. There is a mitzva to help someone to pick up an animal “with him”. So, if other brothers are working hard to support their families, she wants to help them. If your husband prefers learning, then his mother feels less obligated to help with him with something he does not bother to attend to himself. And, again, I hope your husband finds a way to make his mother happier about it – not by nudging her, but by doing something that will deserve her respect in whatever ways she sees it. I personally do not know Talmidei Chahamim who do not try to excel in kibud av.

As to using public funds, as you already see, there are other opinions. It depends how programs are structured: I am all for using public funds to support Jewish schools, provided those schools fulfil the general public goals, educating responsible citizens. If the State of NJ consider establishing programs to support Torah learning as it benefits the world, I’ll vote for it. As to using programs designated for poor, as you already see, there are differing opinions here. I see several parts here:

1) benefiting from Torah learning (that is saying my kollel is working, pay me for that). You can ask your husband to point you places in Gemorah of people who refused to have any physical benefit from their learning. So, just the system of paying people to learn is problematic to begin with, as much as we have good social reasons to have it.

2) taking money from charity designated for poor, rather than for learning. In old Jewish communities, poor were supported but checked out also. I am not aware of T’Ch being supported that way. Maybe someone knows.

3) personal attitude. Why would a T’Ch want someone else to pay for his Torah learning, especially questionable? You figured out a job that pays. If you feel you do not get enough, your husband can figure out how to work for a couple of hours a week. you said a Rav permitted it. Did you ask the Rav whether you are permitted to be machmir and not do that?

4) taking general public funds designated for poor. This is a can of worms. When you asked me about a false choice between supporting homeless and a T’Ch: I will obviously pay for both. I would rather donate to a T’Ch of my choice directly and benefit from the mitzva, rather than paying extra taxes and gaining no benefit! Or maybe just use an extra hour to learn myself instead of working to pay the tax. This sounds petty as T’Ch is 1% of welfare funds – but in some places we now have whole cities and people can do analysis how much of public funds is spent on voluntarily poor.

Dear Always,

You simply never bothered to check out who these programs were crated for, or the criteria needed to qualify. Nor do you have any idea which programs are popular among kollel members and their families. There is no reason to stop now. There are starving children in Zimbabwe. Probably because of kollel.

Anom, it’s amazing how not bitter and not entitled you are at that predicament… It’s truly amazing; most people would be fuming at their mother in law and want their husband to go to work under such circumstances

n0 > Nor do you have any idea which programs are popular among kollel members

Sure. I used to be very poor, but somehow avoided using most of it. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I just said what my principles are. If there is a moral way to get gov money, gezunte heig. For example, Andrew Young’s stipend for everyone would be a great thing for learning. If the economy will survive that, it will be great. In a big picture, current human productivity in developed countries far exceeds what humans need to survive. So, choosing learning obviously a better choice than many others chosen…

Amom, I apologize if I am coming so negative, somehow we are talking past each other and not understanding. I mentioned the money aspect only as a qualification to my “kol hakavod” not even expecting that it applies to you as you were describing your job. And, frankly, I am more picky with this than with other members of society that may or may not be productive: we re talking here about yidden who spent years toiling in Torah. Surely, hopefully it is done in purity and honesty. for an extreme example, could you imagine someone learning whole day and then cursing people, or robbing them, or driving over them on the way home? Surely, everyone would say that this is not real Torah. If a college professor spends years researching Greek philosophy and then misbehaves in his private life, I will care less. This is my only concern, I hope I explained it better now. The rest are specific details that, as I mentioned before, people disagree about and I’ll try to address separately.

amom > AAQ has equal preference for his taxes helping a T”Ch or a homeless beggar.

I don’t have “equal preference”:
1) There are taxes and rules that democratically elected government designated for poor. Usually, the more poor, the more money. So each person who needs charity, gets it from people who work. So, if people (through their elected representatives) say that they are ready to pay X to each poor person, I do not think it is kosher to pretend to be such a person if you are not. As UJM mentioned, if there are programs that designated for anyone who prefers not to earn money, then, of course, it is more ok to take those.

2) when you present it as a choice, I also do not understand. So, you will not do whatever needs to be done to a homeless person in order to support Torah learning by someone who is capable of working?

> means they are making very little money for a non frum lifestyle and a frum lifestyle is way more expensive

these are all legitimate arguments when you talk to a willing donor who wants to support Torah learning. You tell him what is your “expensive frum lifestyle” and he will tell you what he is willing to support.

Dear Always,

I apologize if I’m reading your posts wrong. But there is not that much of a gap between kollel and working families, when it comes to government programs.

I think it is safe to assume that Lakewood has the largest amount of kollel families. And a large amount of young working families as well. Which families use which programs depends on personal choices besides kollel.

A decision about HUD is usually made around marriage. Those that take it, are limiting their choices of where to rent as well as not being able to buy if the opportunity arises. Since a large amount of Lakewood families look to buy before they leave kollel, this program is more stage based than saying something about kollel.

Jersey Care has a very high threshold, especially for large families. If you have private insurance, you probably are paying full tuition. There are those that squeezed by their employers and the schools, which is totally wrong. But that has nothing to do with kollel.

WIC is time consuming. Both the initial WIC appointments, and the WIC approved shopping. It is mostly used by younger families that have one parent available to make a trip out of it. And it also has a high threshold. Serious kollel men, drop WIC when it starts taking up too much time.

SNAP is probably the most associated with kollel life in Lakewood. Still, at some point most families will either not be eligible, or they really are short on money for food.

There are some other programs that have very low thresholds, and are only used by those who are actually poor. Which is not exclusive to kollel.

There is school lunches and meals on wheels for seniors. As well as making your house tax-free or special ed. Which all are not specifically relevant to kollel any more than the working family.

I have to stop here. I’m forgetting what the point of this was. I cede the floor.

Do you harass college graduates who struggle as well or just people who learn?

Do you harass degree holding moms for staying home to raise her children leaving the family on food stamps or just people who learn?

amom, I apologize and sorry for using wrong assumptions. Anyway, for teacher’s salaries – did you look at starting a class teaching in a town that has ore working people and less people capable/having time for teaching. As I put above, $5K x 15 kids = $75K – $25K expenses would give you a salary higher than now. With 2-3 friends and a shul that is willing to give you use of the building, you can thrive and use your talents.