Tanach in Yeshivos

It’s to keep toxic masculinity in check. If boys were taught Tanach they would feel superior to girls in all ways this way woman will be able to have some edge of knowledge over their husbands.

We did learn Shmuel.

I agree that it’s a massive issue (though Mesivta Bachur’s answer was quite amusing!).
There’s a tremendous amount of learning going on, but some focus should be put on Tanach.

Because they learned Tanach as children.

The parts they haven’t learned have little practical value, as one doesn’t decide halacha based on Tanach.

It’s fun, so studying Tanach in yeshiva would be like having ice cream for dinner (by analogy Talmud is similar to meat and vegetables).

TY Smerel for some words of reason and mesorah of daas torah. Rather that every self proclaimed expert authoritatively stating their soap box opinion as to what yeshivos should be doing. We leave that to gedolim. Just wondering, do those that quote that mishna also follow thru to the rest of the program and learn all that is brought there? What about the other mishneh, actually braisoh, or pas bmelech tocahal? Or how about על תרבה שיחה עם האשה, באשתך נאמר, etc. we go with mesorah, particularly with something as fundamental to our existence as yeshivos and mesoras hatorah. and to novelty, I personally prefer the response of no nonsense

> something as fundamental to our existence as yeshivos and mesoras hatorah

without taking sides in the argument: mesorah of current yeshivos is less than 200 years. Nach has a longer yichus. If Hashem did not think we need it, maybe he would not have bothered with it. On the other hand, many claim that you learn Nach from quotes in the Gemorah.

Mesorah of people who think that they know better than Gedolei Yisrael is much older than 200 years! I learned that from Tanach.

I don’t know what “Gedolim” you’re talking about or what “Daas Torah”. My mesorah is that Tanach was learned throughout life and my ancestors all had it at their fingertips. And who says that Ruach Chachamim is nocha with what Smerel says? And since when is Brisk a Raya for anything?

There is an obligation to be maavir sedra too, but most people don’t spend more than an hour a week doing it. We don’t find talmidei chachamim who don’t know tanach; they do! But the stressing of it in day schools and MO yeshivos leads to neither understanding of tanach al pi chazal, nor success in learning altogether. This can be seen by the amount of MO graduates (the half who are even frum) who learn on their own or at all after their year of fun and games in eretz yisroel. They might listen to inspiring speeches encouraging them to be good older brothers who take their younger brothers to movie theaters (i heard a motivational MO rabbi speaker person say this once) but very few learn in a semi-serious (i.e. daf yomi) context.

Again it is not a Mishna and it does not say to learn all of Tanach before starting gemara.

Avira > All of our ideological enemies have stressed tanach,

Not sure of this argument, they also stress Humash! Should we stop reading it in shul? True, we de-emphasize 10comm for a similar reason. Yes to 1/3 approach that leads to spending most time on Gemorah (where Gemorah means not just Dafim, but ability to reason, etc, while halakha l’maase belongin to 2nd 3rd of Mishna). Still, this means that by 120 you need to finish not just Shas but Tanach also.

You are also right that Tzionim were using Tanach to build up a view of Yiddishkeit different from the accepted Galut mesorah. Are you saying it is a reason to de-emphasize Tanach? How was Nach treated in early yeshivos? I think Netziv in Volozhin had Tanach on the agenda, I don’t know to what degree.

“The poskim hundreds of years ago said that being meshalesh learning doesn’t apply nowadays, and that gemara takes priority, both because it is “balul mekulan””

That’s Tosafos.

Halevi, your friend’s idea is exactly the way my first beis medrash gemara rebbe taught me to approach gemara; we would learn the pesukim quoted, usually with the malbim if it was nach, then see how the gemara is using it, and then go back to the meforshim and see the pasuk in light of both. Especially in agadeta gemaros that many people gloss over, we would spend as much time explaining the pshat as we did on shmaatsa. We’d use maharal, maharsha, ben yehoyada, and others

Dear Halevi,

I agree. What is not emphasized in the yeshiva does not mean that there is less value in knowing or learning it. The Fallsberg Rosh Yeshiva says that yeshiva boys should be learning Zohar too. Yet, the common belief is that yeshiva boys are not supposed too be learning it.

What’s stopping a bachur from picking up a mikraos gedolos and start to learn nach in his spare time? This is what I did in mesivta instead of reading novels. Learning mishna berura isn’t a bad idea either. Are yeshiva bachurim so helpless now that they can only learn what is spoon fed? I think they are capable of their own extra limudim.

My grandfather was from the Mir Yeshiva. I’m told he would love to learn tanach when he came home from work. I’m pretty sure it was a lot more prevalent in the yeshivish crowd to be proficient in nach even though it wasn’t kavua.

Nope. Effected. As in caused by something. I could have just written, the strength of the yeshiva is not caused by not learning navi.

I’m aware that you post that yeshivos are about gathering pixie dust. We disagree.

Dear Avira,

You misunderstood. The top of these Yeshivos have some boys from modern backgrounds. Meaning, some of the best boys go on to these yeshivos and learn the same as the boys from the yeshiva background. Which points to the fact that the curriculum is not what makes the product. The regular yeshivos can switch to learning navi all day, and it would not alter the product in any personal way. Your being personal on the wrong topic.

The same way the yeshiva product is not based on Nov learning nach, the modern product is not based on emphasizing it.But now that you have given your full rant, I think your looking at the modern community as incompetent at it’s core. And the yeshiva community as successful to it’s mission. So then you lined up what they are practically doing with what you assumed to be their outcomes. I strongly disagree. Most observant Jewish communities are remarkably parallel. Because our terminology is different for the same nouns, we think ourselves to be much more different.

Again, any learning boy or girl that has the opportunity to study nach, most definitely should.

Also, i said above that it’s not nach or its absence that makes the big difference. It’s the list of differences above that does. I know an old temani yid who told me that they spent a tremendous amount of time on tanach when he was in cheder, for most of his schooling years; he knows tanach backwards and forwards – that’s his mesorah, and if MO schools were half as frum as the temani yeshivos were, i would only say that the litvishe don’t hold rhat way, and nothing more. However, MO learning nach has to be seen both in light of the ignorant and irreligious character of the MO educational and societal framework, and the results thereof. A temani yid taught tanach will not use it to defend feminism, because he has never heard of such things. Nor will he use knowledge of tanach as a “shtuch” to show that he is better than his peers, because he is just as (actually, more) frum as they are.

Dear Avira,

My point is that success is in the hands of the student, not the system. Do we agree that yeshiva boys learning nach is not a threat to the product?

Arguing about schools as one is absolutely better than others is silly. We have a variety of people and we need a variety of people – Yissachar, Zevulun, Levi, etc. Each of the legitimate derachim has some people who benefit from that: there are yeshivos that do not teach math graduate many Talmidei Chachamim, and there are day schools that graduates lawyers and doctors who keep shabbos. These Talmidei Chachamim will teach these doctors throughout their life, and these doctors will be curing T’Chmim … Also, there are people who would go to one type of schools and would never go to another. Both might have problems with inappropriate people not doing there what is intended and we can argue about the extent of those problems, but there is legitimacy for multiple approaches.

AAQ, I’m not against individuals entering professions; im not sure what gave you that impression. I’ve known many ehrlich doctors, lawyers and accountants. But they didn’t grow up with that being the focus of there lives or their parents’ highest hope. They learned behasmada and for whatever reason decided that they belong in that capacity. Most gedolim’s opposition for it to be the communal norm that most people should be guided in that direction has been discussed here at length; rav moshe guided the chinuch of the yeshivos and this was his shitah. I also have no taanos on people who are raised in a torah im derech eretz community, in which the norm is to learn intensively for a few years before going to college, and spending a year or two in kolel after marriage before entering the workforce. I have several friends in that community and they’re very ehrlich, learn a lot when they’re not working, and were not influenced by their college days.

MO schools don’t teach torah im derech eretz, they prioritize secular studies, secular philosophies, and teach a trifle amount of ‘hebrew’ as it’s called, to be forgotten when one exits the institution.

While I’m very opposed to zionism, I do respect the “chardal” types who learn a lot and are taught to be separate from secular philosophy and culture, and who would recoil in horror at the thought of mixing genders. My rebbe rav belsky told me once that they’re bnei torah, who have one meshigas(i don’t recall if this was his exact word, but i do remember it being a forceful term). The boys who were niftar al kidush Hashem in mercaz horav are examples of this.

Avira > Most gedolim’s opposition for it to be the communal norm

Look, communal norm is an important issue, I agree, especially with communal disarray in the last two centuries. Yes, there is nonsense taught in schools and yes there are parents who send kids to colleges and lose them. Still, there are different individuals and you don’t need to disparage them to defend your communal norm. Take, say, CTLawyer’s family – his great-grandather, I think, came from a business in Germany to start a business in US. It is nonsense to say that his family should shun science and technology and just go sell shmatas on amazon like everyone else.

AAQ, i think i was very clear in my post that i don’t look negatively individuals who enter professions or higher education. I don’t like the ideology that holds that this should be, bedavka, the mahalach for the tzibur. I also respect those communities where that is the norm, where they are otherwise very frum and committed to learning

When i say MO schools, I am referring to schools that have a
Greater emphasis/more time on secular studies than kodesh, a mixture of boys and girls, a cultivation of a non/anti torah approach to ethics, civics, politics, and ideology, and other hallmarks of modern orthodoxy. Zionism is a separate issue, but fits into the last qualifier for the most part.

There is a place for kiruv yeshivos, or as you described, private schools with a sprinkling of judaism for parents who otherwise would put their kids in fancy prep schools. That doesn’t mean that their education is valid or a serious attempt at transmitting Torah to the next generation. Good kiruv yeshivos know how to make the most out of what little time and attention for kodesh that the kids will put in.

There are many yeshivos which cater to baalabatishe jews who want their kids to be ready for college, but this isn’t their main focus. Their high school years are filled with torah as the first priority.

Dear Avira,

I think navi is Torah enough that it does not need qualifiers. We have come close enough to an agreement. As maybe you put similar qualifiers on all parts of Torah study.

I did not take this discussion as one about the MO communities doing something right. Why did you harp on that so much? Maybe you do not realize, but all your posts can be switched around too argue for the modern and against the yeshiva community. For someone who claims to have gone through both, it is weird and creepy that you cannot be objective.

PS I do not care for either side of this debate. They are both similarly limited to what their own academic approach. Life and the world at large, are barely noticed by either of them.