Talking in Shul

Hundreds of thousands of Jews were murdered during Tach V’Tat, the Tosfos Yom Tov says, as a result of the widespread talking in shul.

No, because each will be talking about his own concerns.

And if they’re all discussing the same topic?

The Wolf

Joseph, are you cherry picking again? Rabbi Heller ( the Tosfos Yom Tov ) also believed in secular learning. He was well versed in secular science with a particular interrst in arithmatic, natural sciences and astronomy. He was also interested in philosophy and works by non Jews. So, if you accept his psak on the cause of the massacres, i assume you accept his views on secular learning

Several shuls were destroyed by this serious aveira (Mishna Berura 124:27). Even learning quietly is prohibited (ibid s”k 17). The Tosafot Yom Tov blamed the Khmelnytsky massacres on this and wrote a “misheberach” for “מי ששומר את פיו ולשונו לא לדר בזמן התפילה”. It is also prohibited to talk during keriat haTorah (SA 146:1) and the Haftarah (ibid seif 3).

The talking phenomena has always fascinated me. Lawyers would never dare walk into Federal Court 15 minutes late and shmuz with their buddies as they walk to their seat. Teachers would never allow students to wander the classroom shmoozing.
Others wouldn’t think of walking in late to a shiur and shmooz while the rav is giving the shiur.
Yet many of these same people have no problem walking in late to shul and start greeting people who are already davening. It cuts across the spectrum of yiddishkeit.
I think part of the problem is that most people do not have a good understanding of what the tfilos mean and why Chazal selected them. Each of the brachos in Shmoneh Esreh has a background and a reason as to why chazal selected it. In their haste to start teaching Gemorah, the yeshivas give the tfilos short shrift.
I think that people would talk less if they understood why they were in shul

lesschumras:

In contrast to a school, where discipline is imposed and made into a huge part of the curriculum (for another thread), and even the courtroom where there are rules that are enforced by court officers, the shul is a free for all. The expectation is that the person entering the shul is doing so with a level of self discipline that is appropriate for the ongoing conduct of the shul and its tefiloh activities. Unfortunately, the expected level of maturity for this is much less than we might hope for, and we get disappointed by many who use the shul as a social meeting place (which it should be, except before or after davening).

You also noted correctly that too many do not understand tefilos. It is still quite exceptional for a yeshiva to offer a regular class on tefiloh. For the most part, we count on the command of Lashon Hakodesh that was gained during yeshiva years to understand the translation of much of what we recite. But that does a poor job in helping us understand just what we are saying, and it completely misses our need to be emotionally involved with a heartfelt tefiloh experience when we have zero understanding. Teaching tefiloh is a challenge, as it is not academic or rote. It should be unnecessary to provide worksheets, homework, and tests. Rather we should be sharing the beauty of each tefiloh, how it expresses our praises to HKB”H, how it spells out our needs, and how to include the core of kavanah in each part of the davening. As long as we are preoccupied with the decorum of how and where to stand, etc., we are stuck in the chitzoniyus of the davening. It may be a valuable part of it, but distracts many from the core of it. And when this nucleus of the tefiloh is missing, engaging in davening is a chore that we seek to fulfill to check it off from our task list. In reality, it is nothing of the sort. We should be seeking the chance to daven all day, anticipating the opportunity. Yeshivos cannot do this using their tried and true methods of education. It requires a form of teaching that is emotional, not rote, and is experiential. I can note that I have begun to encounter yeshivos that have allowed academic time for teaching tefiloh, and I laud that baby step of progress. I hope it continues and accelerates into a pattern of frenzy in tefiloh that spreads everywhere. Our children need it desperately.

Iacisrmma, he speaks not his mouth and tongue. You can see it on a website called Shulsigns. Do a search on “תוספות יום טוב”.

Little, actually the Mishna Berura says (124:27) that a shul police force should be established. The Kaf HaChaim adds (s”k 37) that the offenders should receive many punishments and be publicly shamed

I think people would stop talking in shul if they were given somewhere else to talk.

Little, you are correct. Perhaps the shul board should consider fines (if legally enforceable) and denial of honors. I heard of one shul where each section had an official shussher – and the list was posted so that everyone knew. I would add people whose cell phones ring, and even more so those who run out to answer them. I had a thought his morning during davening that holes should be bored in their ears.

Little, I am in favor of the super glue solution.

how about a dab of super glue on the lips?

That’ll help them daven better.

To the heilege wolf

How can they al be talking, what is the שליח צבור doing?

Wolf, is it because they are all taking?

No. They’re usually silent.

The Wolf

In our shul, they say the Misheberach of the Tosfas Yom Tov every shabbos.

My shul did that too, although they recently stopped it. I was actually very upset when they stopped it (despite the fact I talk during laining). Alas, my opinion (being worthless and stupid) was not asked when this change in practice was being considered.

The Wolf

pretending leining is talking

It is, is it not?

Perhaps you can more properly classify it as singing or chanting, but those are both subcategories of speech.

The Wolf

@CT Lawyer, I am proud to say I did not miss a minyan since Covid, In the beginning I davened outdoors then as things abated in May I went indoors, regardless of where I was I followed that particular shuls rules, this past week I was out of state and the shul I daven in had three rules, 1, masks must be worn in the shul [kiddish was outdoors with no masks], 2, Cell phones must be turned off in the shul [weekdays of course, zero tolerance for chillul shabbos] 3, absolutely no talking during davening, the sign in shul said that chazen will stop davening until the talking stops.

@always ask questions, your opinion and $2.75 get you on the subway [if your brave enough]