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To put this into proper perspective, you have to understand something about me — I am non-confrontational to the extreme. I know that it may not seem that way based on the way I act on these boards, but in real life, I am extremely non-confrontational. If someone or something bothers me, I am far, far, far more likely to just bottle it up inside me and let myself stew than do what needs to be done to remedy the situation. Yeah, I know it’s a character flaw… so sue me. 🙂
Anyway, this past Friday night, I was davening Ma’ariv in shul. I stand in an out-of-the-way corner, so as to disturb as few people as possible. Unfortunately, the few people who daven closest to me have a tendency to hold conversations during davening. Despite my own failings in this field with regard to laining, I still get very upset about talking during davening*.
This particular Shabbos, there was a fellow who seemed to have no problem holding whole conversations during Ma’ariv itself. He went on and on about how big a bargain he got on the cold cuts for his Purim Se’uda and various other topics that could easily have waited until after davening and did NOT have to be discussed at that minute. The fact that he was standing less than five feet from me only made matters worse.
I am generally a person with a *very* long fuse. And yet, for some reason, this particular Shabbos, with this particular person, I nearly snapped. I was ready to confront him during davening and ask him to kindly shut up — but I bit my tongue (figuratively) and just continued to stew and simmer.
Finally, at the end of davening, I decided to confront him — which, for me, is a huge thing. I went over to him, apologized for being presumptuous (since I’m only a guest in the shul while he is a member), and asked him to kindly not hold conversations near me during davening — especially if the conversation could easily wait until after davening.
He took it rather well. He didn’t seem to be offended by my request, apologized and said that he would be more careful in the future.
And yet, I still feel terrible about the whole thing. I feel bad that I confronted him, I feel bad that I made him feel bad and, worst of all (perhaps selfishly) I feel bad that I lost control of myself and felt so compelled to confront him. I pride myself (one of the few things that I do pride myself on) on my extreme tolerance and patience — and I let this person “beat” me.
It’s sad (in a funny sort of way) — in one sense, I know that a lot of you are going to tell me that I did nothing wrong — and in a way you’re right. But yet, in another way I can’t help but feel that by confronting this person, I lost control of myself, let myself down and made the person feel bad (whether he deserved it or not). Do I feel worse that I made him feel bad or because I “violated” my own standards? I don’t know…
In any event, it royally stinks to feel bad about this… and yet I do. Welcome to my life.
The Wolf
* Yes, I’m well aware that some might say that this makes me a hypocrite. Consider it a character flaw of mine.
** Perhaps that’s why I write a blog. It gives me the ability to “vent” without actually confronting someone.
Wolf- think about it that you did it for Hashem and not for yourself.
There are two separate issues here. One is telling him something about talking during davening. The other is telling him anything at all. In regard to the first issue, you were completely right. If next time he has something to say during davening and then decides not to because you asked him not to, it goes on your “record” that you stopped someone from talking during davening, and the people around him were actually able to daven. Thats an A+ right there. The second part is another issue entirely. Everyone is allowed to make a mistake once in a while. And losing control is a temporary thing. One more thought: often feelings of guilt will make someone be extra careful in the future. Not so terrible.
It sounds like your “confrontation” was done quite respectfully, as he took it well. We all need some work on our middos, but I don’t think you should be beating yourself up too badly for feeling frustrated; you’re a human being (despite your screen name :).
I’m a bit confused about one thing, though. How do you talk while you’re laining?
I once had a similar situation, except it was in the shule where I grew up and was a regular. Another member (who incidentally had smicha) was a constant talker. At the time, I must have been in my late teens, and he was in his early 50s. It got to the point where I just couldn’t take his constant chatter anymore, so after davening one Shabbat morning I pulled him aside. I very respectfully asked him if he could stop talking during davening. He became confrontational and said, “Why are you asking me? I’m not the only one talking.” I said (again, very respectfully), “That’s true, but you know the halachot about talking during davening. You know better.” He harumphed and walked away, but at mincha that afternoon he came over to me, said I was right, and apologized for what he said earlier. He also said he would stop talking during davening – and he did.
Wolf, I agree with you whole-heartedly. It is terribly frustrating to go through davenning with whispers (not all people are so kind as to whisper, there are very often LOUD conversations) going on, like you say- less than 5 feet away.
My question is, how do you stop such things? People can be told a bazillion times to stop, but from my experience, people just don’t listen. Any suggestions?
I commend you on you holding back, and that you asked nicely- I know that both are very difficult for me. I either snap, or I hold it bottled inside me while the annoyance eats on my insides… So, sh’koyach to you 🙂
Meanwhile, any suggestions for me? What do I tell davenning chatterboxes?
“When you’re davening you’re talking to Hashem, when you’re davening you’re talking to Hashem- our King, it’s a very special thing, when you’re talking to a King, when you’re davening you’re talking to Hashem!” (I love that song!) 🙂
Wolf: You rebuked someone, obviously in a beautiful way, evidenced by the fact that they took it so well.
If someone were to feel good about themselves afterward, they may come close to be “mischabed boklon chaveiro”. The fact that you feel bad, shows how much respect you have for others (even after you help them..). If I dare say, it sounds like the way it should be.
It seems that you said it rather well.
Of course, the idea is not only to not disturb YOU (sorry, no italics) from tefilla, but not to speak in a shul because it’s a lack of yiras Shomayim, etc. (Plus it disturbs EVERYONE.) I’m not saying it should have been said like this, but at least in retrospect we should realize this.
I know that the story happened during Ma’ariv, but a point to note: Rav Pincus zt”l in She’arim B’Tefila writes of the extreme importance of chazoras hasha”tz. I most certainly have to work on my appreciation and concentration, etc. – but to talk during chazoras hasha”tz?! You (not you the blogger, but you the talker) can’t wait five minutes at least? Again, not something you can necessarily say, but the idea is there.
What to tell people? How about, “let’s garner zechus for Klal Yisroel and refrain from talking during davening!” “Though we don’t have the Bais HaMikdosh, the shul is a mikdosh me’at, and it’s our job to treat it respectfully.” “It’s hard to fully grasp it, but a shul is a special place, so let’s refrain from speaking.” Etc.
Chochma bagoyim ta’amin: Dale Carnegie in How to Win Friends and Influence People wrote that one of the ways to correct people is to begin by talking about your own faults. So how about, “Not talking in shul is a nisayon for me, too – maybe we can work on it together?” ETc. Take the idea and “run” with it.
Rabbi Yisroel Reisman shlit”a, in one of his recent Motza’ay Shabbos shiurim, spoke about the kovod one must accord a shul/bais medrosh . . .
Don’t feel bad for doing what is right!
Before the shul we daven at was redone the mechitza was in middle vertically. Therefore, on one side of the mechitza directly were men benches and on the other side women. The women’s side was considered the better seats but for the men it was the end and yes there was alot of talking. My mother should be well was in shul every Shabbos early enough so to be there at the beginning. Near the mechitza were the shmoozers on the men’s side. This would disturb her and she would either bang on the mechitza or say things as nu, nu or sh,sh to quiet them. Once one of the men yelled back (and i am just paraprasing, not even using the real words he used) and said ” you old woman what are you excited about, you are almost smelling the grass”! My mother is an almana and very proper and kept quiet. This story goes back at least 18 years if not more. My mother is B”H still here with us and yes you guessed right, some of the einiklech named after this man were already Bar Mitzvahed!
Don’t feel bad for doing what is right!
Wolf you didn’t fail you didnt react as it was happening you allowed yourself time to cool off and then approached him respectfully. Since his reaction was appreciative i’m sure he took it to heart and took no offense dont beat yourself up.
” “When you’re davening you’re talking to Hashem, when you’re davening you’re talking to Hashem- our King, it’s a very special thing, when you’re talking to a King, when you’re davening you’re talking to Hashem!” (I love that song!) 🙂 “
If you love it so much, how about getting the words right? 😉
When you’re davening, you’re talking to Hashem,
When you’re davening, you’re talking to Hashem Hashem,
It’s a pretty scary thing
When you’re talking to a King,
When you’re davening, you’re talking to Hashem,
It’s a pretty scary thing
When you’re talking to a King,
When you’re davening, you’re talking to Hashem.
I am wondering why everyone is pretending there isnt an issue here…
You KNOW you did the right thing.
Wolf, it’s not always easy to the right thing. But you did it for Hashem’s Kavod and that is right.
Also a bit difficult because it involved possibly hurting a man’s feelings.
* Yes, I’m well aware that some might say that this makes me a hypocrite. Consider it a character flaw of mine.
I wouldn’t merely consider hypocrisy an incidental flaw; someone who fumes at one who talks during davening yet himself talks during laining is likely not fuming out of righteous indignation, but out of personal annoyance.
I have a theory, though. I think when you say that you talk during laining, you’re just using a clever play on words; you are actually the one reading the Torah (you’ve mentioned that you are a ba’al koreh), hence the reference to “talking” during laining. If so, you’re not a hypocrite, but something which I’ve accused you of before: overly self-critical.
Am I correct about your reference to talking during laining?
“In reality, however, it’s not so clear. I could have just kept quiet as I had done many times in the past.”
I am not a “quoter” but…
“B’makom she’ain ish….”
It’s not always easy to do the right thing.
(I do think this is for attention.)
Wolf,
I know exactly how you feel. I have been bothered by talking, sometimes right in front of me while I’m in the middle of Shemoneh Esrei, and it makes my hair rise [wolf pun intended], because not only does it injure the davening of the talker, but of the listener(s), and of my own davening and others nearby through disturbance and distraction. In fact, it is harmful to the entire tzibbur, as the disruption ripples away from the source. And… I am also one of those who would find any kind of personal confrontation abhorrent and painful. I hate conflict to a fault.
This may seem silly to you, but I noticed that you said:
I stand in an out-of-the-way corner, so as to disturb as few people as possible.
I think, unfortunately, that habitual talkers might use the same logic. Talk in the corner so we don’t disturb others… too much. When I was new to my shul, I preferred to stand in the back, and had a lot of problems with disruptive talking around me. Then I moved towards the front, closer to where the Rav sits, and I hear very little talking there. Like night and day.
So my advice/question in your case is… which would be harder for you: to confront the talkers, or to sit more in the front, where perhaps you will be surrounded by people who, like you, came to daven seriously. For me, sitting up front was easier. And now it’s my “regular” place. I’d opt to do it even as a guest at a different shul. I’d just choose an “out of the way” place near the front.
PS – Why do you insinuate that leining is somehow in the same category as disruptive talking during davening? Isn’t that potentially disingenuous?
Wolf, I think you can tell by now that I am a fairly moderate type of person. You absolutely did the right thing. Period. If someone were to be offended by what you said, then they would be doubly wrong, first for talking sduring davening in the first place, and then for failing to accept mussar which is given in the right spirit.
Wolf~ I say ‘ditto’ to oomis.
Yeah, I think it’s more about violating your own standards and that he “beat” you. Hashem gives us opportunities to correct our flaws.
Wolf not only did you not anything wrong, you did exactly what should be done in such a situation. Kol yisroel areivim zeh li’zeh, both in gashmiyus and ruchniyus. If I’m not mistaken, the Mishna Brura actually says that one should yell at people talking during davening, but I always took that to be the last step (ie stop them from talking even if you have to yell at them) and that doing it nicely is far better.
Actually, I had a pretty similar situation myself this morning; during shachris, two people in front of me kept shmozzing. My first step was (as it usually is) to daven extra loudly while looking straight at the people. This time that strategy didn’t work, so in between paragraphs I gave a low “shh”. Sure enough, a couple of seconds later they stopped talking.
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