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I, for one, am equally annoyed when people daven so loud that I can’t concentrate.
I complained about that once on these boards. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I had no right to complain about someone else davening loudly and disturbing my davening, even when he wasn’t even in the same part of davening as everyone else.
That’s part of the reason that I no longer rebuke anyone for talking during davening, laining, or, for that matter, for anything else. I just accept that if I’m ready to complain then I must be wrong and it’s better that I just keep my mouth shut.
The Wolf
Yussel, there is a chiyuv to stop aveiros from being done if possible.
Wolf:
We must daven in the same place 🙂 It annoys me alot, but, as happened to you, when I asked people to daven quieter I was told I have no business asking that. I guess you can’t fight city hall.
MDD:
Are you out in the streets on Shabbos trying to stop the Chillul Shabbos going on right before your eyes? Do you go to the churches to stop the Avodah Zarah? Do you go to all the treif restaurants looking for Jews so you can stop aveiros. There’s no end to what you could be doing to prevent people from sinning. Why pick on this one thing?
WolfishMusings
Not everybody here knows what they are talking about (Halachically or otherwise).
Not everybody here knows what they are talking about (Halachically or otherwise).
True, of course. But I make it a policy to treat everyone as if they are smarter than I am (because, in all probability, they are). So, if I’m davening Ma’ariv on Shabbos and someone is saying Kabbalos Shabbos loudly next to me and disturbing my davening, I just sit and cope as best as I can. If someone’s discussing sports next to me while I’m davening, I just try to tune him out as best I can.
The only exceptions are: (1) my own kids and (2) if someone tries to involve me. In the latter case, I tell them that I’ll be happy to talk with them after davening. That’s as close as I’ll come to a rebuke of anyone.
The Wolf
to “shopping 613” everyone should be welcome to come daven absolutely but not to come and disturb those who did come to daven. some more misplaced liberal tripe that is more worried about pc than about torah and halacha
wolf- sometimes a person can become so involved in a sugya that he will have difficulty stopping to debate a point in it even when that would be appropriate. what the heck dont you get.
Wolfish, I do remember that thread.
Whatever was written there, you must admit there’s a huge difference between someone (ok maybe a bit selfishly) trying to daven more sincerely, with more kavana, devotion, feeling and thereby “loosing himself”, to that of the lightheaded shmoozers and scoffers.
The vibes of one sincerely in prayer won’t ruin you neshama, while association to the other group will. ??? ???? ???? ??????.
How long are other services compared to a shacharis davening?
Also, I still don’t get why people feel the need to discuss religion at work. It’s one of the two big no-nos.
Dr Uri
I think you are exaggerating. Yes probably every shul has a little bit of talking and some have a lot to the point where its almost like they came to shul to talk. However I wouldn’t classify all or most shuls like this.
Dr. B – I assume you speak from experience and have been to more than five shuls and have left the tristate area. Often the ,”everyone” comments are based on someone’s backyard, their frontyard, and whoever else’s yard is within viewing distance.
And the mosques and churches you spent time in must have been very surprised to have you as their guest. Perhaps the silence you experienced first hand was them being speechless regarding your attendance.
Just saying
Talking is going to happen no matter what it’s just how it’s become. Non-talkers have to seek out the few quiet Shuls around wherever they may live on earth. What’s the worse approach? Do you admonish people and breed an inner hatred toward the talker, or do you “live and let live” hoping the rabbi, or someone will one day properly inspire the talker to attend shul quietly. Remember, shul can take up almost 2 hrs of a persons weekday, and more on ???, this is something we cannot judge others about if they slip or fail. For those who are infuriated by the talker- I wonder how much of your feelings come from true zealousness for ???? ??, and how much of it comes from other places. Don’t use your higher ????? as a way to denounce others and feel a false sense of superiority, cloaking it in supposed zealousness. Like yussel said, where is your ????? outside of the shul?
The rabbi and chazzan are in charge of stopping the talking, but we cannot all be police because most of us aren’t in the right position to be admonishing others. I believe that if you approach someone who you know will probably immediately cause ?????? then it is assur to approach them- you tell me how many “shush” types aren’t game for a little ?????? every so often so they can put their “religiousness” on display for all to see.
This might be too heavy for the CR- a place where putting our religiousness on display is a way of life- at least here it’s mostly anonymous
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go to an Orthodox/ frum shul of any stripe and there is talking throughout davening. Its like the talking is the main thing and agav orchey we say a few amens here and there daven shmoneh esrie and immediately resume our conversations.
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this is not true. people believe this and think it is just impossible to stop the talking in shules and give up or use it as an excuse for their own behavior. (“oh, everyone does that”) .
However there are shules where talking is nearly non-existent.
As my own ( my above observations were from when I am not in my own shul. ) Another poster said the same about his own shul above. There are others where the few talkers relegate themselves to the back while most of the shule is quiet.
look around. If you have children and can’t find a proper place to take them to daven, move.
The Aruch HaShulchan (OC 124:12) agrees with Dr. Uri.
Dr. B, I’m sure you learned all the nosai keilim on Orach Chaim 124:7 and are familiar with the ‘punishments’ listed there. Like others who posted here, I have to say that most places I’ve davened, it is quiet during davening. What you wrote here is motzi shem ra, possibly constitutes a kitrug. Are you ready to shoulder responsibility of others receiving the punishments mentioned?
The fact that the shul has a “young marrieds” minyan is an indication of what goes on…. Why group socially compatible people if not to socialize? You’re complaining about the shul itself, not just the congregants… Or are they both the same thing?
Can we all agree that nobody should ever tell someone else to stop talking in shul unless that person offering rebuke never says a word himself?
I’ve witnessed a person telling another to be quiet, only to later be engaged in his own conversation.
Dr. Uri
You seriously have a hang up with this issue. Dont get me wrong it really bothers me too and I have spoken about it here and with people in the real world but repeatedly posting here like a broken record really accomplishes little.
Not to belittle the sin, but I just hate how inaccurate that mashal is and it’s always used…
It should me more like- if you had a standing appointment with the president 3 times each day, and 4 times ??? ???? ???…
Also- Im sorry but not everyone in landau looks like they’re about ready for a meeting with the president..
E-O-M, in Europe different professions had their own shuls. Thus a newcomer could find people who could help him find a job. If it is done after davening it is fine. Perhaps the young marrieds want to bring their babies and toddlers without being told to remove them when they create a disturbance. If so, it is fine with me that they should have their own minyanim. On the contrary, may Hashem bless and keep these minyanim – far away from mine.
BTW, The Be’er Heteiv on this siman in Shulchan Aruch, discussing “sichas Chulin” during Chazaras HaShatz states that one should not sing along with the Shatz.
I don’t recall anybody ever getting too upset in shul when people sing along with the Chazzan.
Someone suggested a shidduch for my daughter. I saw the boy talking during kryas hatorah and that was the end the suggestion.
Someone suggested a shidduch for my daughter. I saw the boy talking during kryas hatorah and that was the end the suggestion.
May I ask if that was your decision or your daughter’s? Do you know for certain that she is not willing to have a husband who talks during leining?
and he happened to have been the baal koreh!
The baal koreh had nothing better to do then shmooze about the parsha in middle of the kriah?
BTW, The Be’er Heteiv on this siman in Shulchan Aruch, discussing “sichas Chulin” during Chazaras HaShatz states that one should not sing along with the Shatz.
I have been guilty of this.
Perhaps therefore, it is correct that I make it a policy to never rebuke anyone for talking in shul, even if it disturbs me.
The Wolf
Yussel
Many people dont know this Halacha.
Recently in one of the big shuls in my neighborhood they had an election for president of the young marrieds minyan between one person who wanted decorum during davening and the incumbent who promised to allow all the schmoozing status quo…. the result incumbent 85% of the vote.. Mi Kaamch Yisrael.
Voting to allow shmoozing?…to bad the “big shul” doesn’t have a Rov to keep the members on the derech. Looks like the inmates are running the asylum.
Uri Bakay,
I personally am makpid on not talking during davening, and I am bothered by talking, especially during chazaras hashatz, kaddish, and leining. I completely fail to understand why someone would do this, when not only is it a clear cut aveirah, but there is ample opportunity to talk after davening, especially on Shabbos when there is a kiddush. So I sympathize with your feelings on the issue.
That said, it is also a clear cut aveirah to speak lashon hara about the Jewish people, or a Jewish community as a whole. Drawing negative comparisons with other religions, painting all Orthodox Jews with a single brush stroke, and derisively stating “Mi Kaamch (sic) Yisrael” may just be as bad in the eyes of halacha as talking during davening.
I truly understand the frustration that you are feeling, but please don’t let another’s aveirah cause you to commit your own.
Wow! Dr. Did someone hit you in the head with a baseball bat?
you just trying to cause ruckus?
While this is an issue near and dear to my heart, you sir are just getting out of hand.
The author of the Tosafot Yom Tov blamed talking in shul for the pogroms in Ukraine in the 1650s. Maybe the talking in shul is why our enemies are succeeding so well.
I overheard a baal tshuvah tell his rabbi that his family thinks he joined a cult. The rabbi told him that he was supposed to be the cult leader, but that he couldn’t even get people to stop talking in shul!
edited
So talking is what makes us a non-cult?
While I personally can’t understand people who talk in shul, if only from a perspective of derech eretz and consideration for others (and you can eliminate “under” in “understand” in order to more accurately get at my true feelings about them, but I digress), to be a bit Reb Levi Yitzchak style here, I was talking about this with my friends and my friend brought up a really interesting point. We’d actually just been learning about the Puritans in APUSH, and it came up how they had so much discipline and were so silent during all their prayer meetings, etc, and why can’t Jews be that way. So my friend pointed out that in some ways, the whole lifestyle was a culture of sort of drudgery- your fate is predetermined when you’re born, there’s no objective to connect with God, it’s basically just wake up, sit through church, go back to bed. There’s no feeling of comfort with God. With Jews, however, perhaps we feel TOO comfortable with Hashem that people think it’s fine to talk while at an audience with the King (though I don’t like the metaphor because it implies that an audience with the king is a rare occurrence), but at least we don’t treat shul as something to dread because of how dull it is, sitting straight and staring at the bima or whatever. We really feel like shul is a place to LIVE, because Hashem’s not only here, he’s everywhere, to paraphrase our favorit Mitzvah Man- shul is a place to express, not suppress, and that’s really vital in achieving dveykus.
That’s not to say I condone talking during shul- it’s disrespectful on levels of both bein adam laMakom and bein adam lachaveiro. However, I know that I personally needed a good way to look at it, and this works for me to at least be like R’ Levi Yitzchok and say, in some way, “mi ke’amcha Yisrael!”
I don’t get it. I live in Brooklyn, and there are plenty of shuls to choose from where people don’t talk by davening and the Rabbi will shush people who do.
I will not daven in a shul where people talk, and if I were to move to a different neighborhood this would be one of my priorities.
funnybone: Happens to be, I agree. My shul is a very quiet shul in general, and I appreciate that. I would not pick a shul that had a lot of talking and disrespect unless I had a REALLY good reason (only one within a twenty mile radius…).
If that fathers in shul are schmoozing through davening, what message is being taught to their sons?
I have this image that in 10 years( earlier) my sons will be davening and everyone will be looking at them so strangely because they are actually talking to HASHEM and not the people around them.
If that fathers in shul are schmoozing through davening, what message is being taught to their sons?
Exactly… and I learned this the hard way.
While I’ve always been a stickler on talking during davening, there was one thing I used to do consistently… learn during Chazaras HaShatz. While the Chazzan recited the Amidah, I would often take out a Mishnayos and learn.
One day, I caught my son reading a novel during Chazaras Hashatz. When I asked him about it, he told me that he sees me reading, so it must be okay. I tried to justify it by claiming that, at least, I was learning, but at the end of the day, I had to admit that he was right.
Since then, I no longer learn during Chazras HaShatz. I now follow along in the siddur with the Chazzan.*
The Wolf
* I’d be lying if I said I *never* drifted off into day-dreaming during Chazaras HaShatz, but it doesn’t happen to often….
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