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July 4, 2017 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1310534DovidBTParticipant
As a BT, one thing I’m still trying to understand is the way that observant Jews avoid mentioning Hashem and the Mitzvos when talking to non-observant Jews or non-Jews.
For example, some prominent and well-regarded Torah-observant Jewish lecturers will talk about tradition, morality, etc., when making a point, but avoid saying “We do this because it’s a commandment from G-d.”
Doesn’t that represent a lack of emunah and bitachon?
July 4, 2017 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1310569☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI don’t think it’s due to their own lack of emunah, it’s just that they’re trying to instill emunah in others who may be lacking, and are trying to be subtle, because they think it will be more effective.
July 4, 2017 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #1310571LightbriteParticipantMaybe they’re trying to get on the level of a less observant Jews and nonJews.
Saying “We do this because it’s a commandment from G-d” may alienate unobservant Jews and nonJews.
For the record, when I was less observant, a rabbi told me point blank, “We do this because it’s a commandment from G-d” (in his words), and I loved it! It was refreshing to hear oneself speak in this way, instead of the sales-pitch approach –which I less prefer and can be a turn off.
So yes, I agree that saying that we do this because Hashem said so does require emuna and bitachon. At the same time, maybe observant Jews have more success saying it in other ways, or want to avoid confrontation. Avoiding confrontation in itself may supersede here, since it’s looking out for one’s pikuach nefesh.
Sometimes maybe it’s better to let the kiruv speciailists and rabbonim do the teaching.
July 5, 2017 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1310963oyyoyyoyParticipantAgree. Its not easy to listen to someone talk about G-d for a while, people get anxious. Not everyone, even many frum jews, can think G-d and not get scared off. It helps to realize He’s not out to get you but that takes time. Also, since holy topics are more esoteric and have very fine points, it can be hard to relate to them and even if a person can understand and relate to them he may not be able to actually live with them as a concrete reality – be able to relate to them with his whole self. The idea can just dissipate.
July 10, 2017 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1314129lowerourtuition11210ParticipantDovidBT: Many FFB are taught not to say certain things (especially to non-observant yidden) since it will now put the non-observant in a position of “meizid” (intentional) instead of “shohgeig” (inadvertent).
As for non-jews, if you tell them it’s “We do this because it’s a commandment from G-d” they will generally respond “but it doesn’t say that in the Bible”. Do you really need to then get into a discussion abut Torah Shel Ba-peh?
July 10, 2017 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1314794DovidBTParticipantThanks for the responses to my question.
I’m still not convinced, but it gives me some ideas to ponder.
July 11, 2017 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1314990WolfishMusingsParticipantbut avoid saying “We do this because it’s a commandment from G-d.”
Whenever I speak to people, that’s *exactly* the reason I use when people ask me about the mitzvos. Yes, there may be other, incidental reasons, but ultimately, it boils back to “because God said so.”
The Wolf
July 11, 2017 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1315190Avram in MDParticipantDovidBT,
I’m still not convinced
What does that mean? That you think observsant Jews are lacking in emuna and bitachon?
July 11, 2017 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1315208Avram in MDParticipantDovidBT,
For example, some prominent and well-regarded Torah-observant Jewish lecturers will talk about tradition, morality, etc., when making a point, but avoid saying “We do this because it’s a commandment from G-d.”
Doesn’t that represent a lack of emunah and bitachon?
I disagree completely. The fact that Orthodox Jews talk unabashedly about Hashem is part of what drew me towards Orthodoxy in the first place. When, however, a non-Orthodox Jew asks me why I keep my fridge light off on Shabbos, simply responding, “because Hashem told me to”, while true, would not actually answer the question. He’d immediately retort, “where in the Torah does it talk about refrigerators??”
July 11, 2017 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1315217☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant“where in the Torah does it talk about refrigerators??”
That’s actually a simple one to answer – לא תבערו אש – but I get your point.
July 11, 2017 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1315275JosephParticipantI think it would answer the question, Avram, but it wouldn’t be sufficiently a clear answer to the questioner.
July 11, 2017 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1315293Avram in MDParticipantJoseph,
Exactly.
July 11, 2017 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1315290Avram in MDParticipantDaasYochid,
That’s actually a simple one to answer – לא תבערו אש – but I get your point.
True – I could have probably come up with a better example, like answering why we observe 8 days of Passover instead of 7 (Avi K with a plug for moving to Israel in 3… 2… 1…).
July 11, 2017 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1315310feivelParticipantdovid i think you are not convinced because i suspect you sense a different reason. i think what you are sensing but not clearly able to articulate is the following. we who work on and have established some degree of Emunah are nevertheless in exile and steeped in the ways of the goyim. we sometimes forget why we do things and do them out of habit. we sometimes drift away from Hashem. we sometimes feel uncomfortable mentioning Hashem for fear we’ll look foolish. the other reasons and calculations given here are also true. but our humanness and lackings are always there also. maybe thats what is bothering you
July 11, 2017 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #1315314JosephParticipantWB, Feivel!
July 11, 2017 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1315489DovidBTParticipantAvram:
When I said “I’m still not convinced,” I meant that I’m not convinced that refraining from talking about G-d (and the Torah and the mitzvos) is the right way to for a Jew to behave. I’m not saying that it’s wrong either, merely that I’m still trying to understand.
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“When, however, a non-Orthodox Jew asks me why I keep my fridge light off on Shabbos, simply responding, “because Hashem told me to”, while true, would not actually answer the question. He’d immediately retort, “where in the Torah does it talk about refrigerators??”
You could reply that our faith is based on not only the written Torah, but also on the Oral law that G-d gave to Moses, and that both have been studied, interpreted and elaborated upon by our sages over the centuries and millennia. You could say that you have been taught by Rabbis whom you trust that we’re not permitted to operate lights on Shabbos and that rule is based on the Torah. You could offer to refer the questioner to books or web sites that explain in more detail, if he’s interested.
Or you could simply say that the answer is complicated and that you don’t have time to go into it right now. If that doesn’t satisfy the questioner, so what? That’s his problem.
The above is not intended as advice for you to follow; it’s just a response to your question.
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Feivel:
Thanks for the response. I’ll take some time to think about it.
July 12, 2017 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1316176oyyoyyoyParticipantR Shlomo Freifeld sometimes translated “cheit” as failure or missing the mark (he brought a proof to the meaning.) He said sometimes we need to give a little life to these concepts. When asking what does cheit meant he remarked along the lines of, “a sin? a sin, a sin, sin has as much meaning to us as…ich veis vos (i dont know what).” And, “go to a university and tell someone about sin, theyl laugh in ur face. It has no meaning.”
I think i get where feivels coming from but i dont think it’s fair to say that about everyone. There were/are big people that sometimes garb ideas in more relatable ways.
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