Tal Umotor Reminder

Thanks DY!

oh
ha

Never mind It was on page 2
I feel silly

I guess Ive done sillier things than thank twice

There is a fascinating discussion there about rain being on par with giving of Torah, etc. I think what Gemorah is saying that natural sustenance that Hashem provides is no less miraculous than big events, and we need to pay attention and be grateful and study them. Appropriately, this is followed by a scientific discussion where the rain is being formed.

Of course, if you all lived where you’re supposed to be living, this entire discussion would be moot.

We don’t general follow “science” in halachic matters
We follow science as handed down by the Chachmei Hamesorah.

Shmuel’s Tekufa isn’t Sept 24, it is Oct 7 (until 2100 when it will be Oct 8)

That said , there is a more accurate Tekufa of Rav Ada Which was shortly before midnight Sunday Sep 25 which is obviously closer to 9/22 than Oct 7 is *

The Chazon Ish explains that the reason why we don’t use it for vesein tal umatar is that it is too complicated for the massess. We all need to figure out when to say vesein tal umatar, same goes for birchas hachama. So we use a simpler albeit less accurate calculation that is “close enough” (He explains that Shmuel isnt arguing on Rav Ada, of course Shmuel new his calendar was innacurate in Berachos he says he knew the paths of stars like the roads of Neharda)

However for the calendar which is given over to chachamim we use the more complicated tekufa of Rav Ada

*
The reason why this is off by more than you might expect, is that Jewish Tekufos assume 4 equal periods
That of Shmuel assumes 365 days & 6 hrs or 365.25 days a season is 1/4 of that = 91 days 7.5 hr
That of Rav Ada assumes a year lasts 365.24682 days a season is 1/4 of that
(For comparative purposes The Gregorian Calendar assumes a year lasts 365.24250 days (Note this too is a bit too slow and will eventually need to be adjusted as the calendar is sliding forward by one day every 3323 years))
However the astronomical seasons are not of equal length. This is becasue the Earth’s trip around the sun is not a crcle it is an ellipse so the seasons are not equal I found these values online: Spring = 92 days, 19 hours; summer = 93 days, 15 hours; autumn,= 89 days, 20 hours; winter= 89 days, zero hours. Thus while the Gregorian and Astronomical YEARS are very close to that of Rav Ada. The SEASONS are off by a few days

Oops made a big mistake in my last post

corrected here:

RE

point of clarification

you said ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”

Those two Septembers are not the same

To be consistent The question should be
Using Gregorian dates:
” why do we follow Shmuel (Oct 7) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”

or
Using Julian dates
” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sep 9)? Is science incorrect here?”

(I prefer the first way since we use the Gregorian calendar thus we are more familiar with it, and in fact in my first version of this post I made a mistake with the Julian date )

I never knew that summer is longer than winter! (in northern hemisphere). one more thing to thank Hashem for.

Thank you for the reminder and important tip in the change of date this year.

RE it is against an explicit Remah

See OC 117:1
Mechaber says we say it on the 60th day after the Tekufa
The Remah says the day of the tekufa is included.
The Mishna Berura points out that there is always 2 days between the day of the tekufa and the day we say vesein tal umatar. His example is if the Tekufa was Sunday then we start vesein tal umatar at Maariv of yom revviii (Ie Tuesday night). This is not wah twe did according to your incorrect caclulation. Sept 23 was Shabbos, if this was the tekufa we would have started Monday night

Do you not remeber discussing this last year? and the year before? and before?
soem of the comments are in this thread

I randomly grabbed the first 50 years of this century
Here are the dates of the Autumnal equinox, followed by the correct date for start of vesein tal umatar (some of these are Friday night when of course start is delayed for an unrelated reason)
Followed by the start date using your system followed by a Y if the y match and N if they don’t.

They are aligned 43/50 which is 86% pretty good but as a “rule” to keep sharing when it is wrong 14% of the tme I think you should stop sharing your system

Equinox – Correct date – your date – match?
2000 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2001 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2002 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
2003 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2004 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2005 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2006 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
2007 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2008 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2009 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2010 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
2011 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2012 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2013 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2014 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
2015 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2016 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2017 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2018 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
2019 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2020 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2021 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2022 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
2023 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2024 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2025 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2026 Sep 23 Dec 4 Dec 5 N
2027 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2028 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2029 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2030 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2031 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2032 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2033 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2034 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2035 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2036 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2037 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2038 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2039 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2040 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2041 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2042 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2043 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2044 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2045 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2046 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2047 Sep 23 Dec 5 Dec 5 Y
2048 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y
2049 Sep 22 Dec 4 Dec 4 Y

(I did this by hand so there might be a typo or error or 2, though doesnt change my overall point)

I just realized a mistake “I made
I got the dates from “timeanddate . com”

The times given are Coordinated universal time which is 5 hours ahead of New York time.
Thus for New york the above dates are not accurate
Some chnage to become correct for you

for example last year 2022, equinox was Sep 23 01:03 UTC (which results in incorrect Dec 5th) but in NY this was Sep 22 9:03 PM (which results in correct Dec 4th)

Nonethless my point still stands:

1) Your rule is limited to certian time zones, making it not such a good rule, in London my list above with the 14% error rate is correct.

2) Correcting for time difference makes some of your years more correct (eg 2022 becomes right)
Others become wrong, for example 2039 in London your system works : Equinox will be Sep 23 03:49 UTC which results in Dec 5th according to both your system and the halachic one. but in NY the Equinox will be few hours earlier (local time) Sep 22 11:48 PM which would lead to Dec 4 start date using your system while Dec 5th using the halachic system (though to be fair it is more accurate in NY than in London )

3) If you use it as a cute trick that usually works fine. But this is a-halachic in Halacha when counting days we always (almost?) count the first day as day 1. If you say ignore that and just add 60 it works fine. but to make it sound like this is how the cheshbon works when it is not true makes me squeamish.

4) You say “I am trying to find an easy way of calculating.”
This is the part I really don’t get, it is much easier to check your siddur and see “Start saying Vesein Tal umatar on Dec 4t hat MAariv unless it is before a leap year in whcih case it is Dec 5th” or google “When do we start” seems os much easier than relying on your method although it usually works.
Who is this easy calculation for?
for those who want to understand how Dec 4th was chosen and why this year its Dec 5th give them the correct answer. Who gains from your incorrect system (although it usually works)?

most important: kavanot for this year. Tal umatar should flood Hamas tunnels and keep Russian tanks stuck in the mud.

RE

“We add 14 from 2100”

Yes my #5 is wrong I tried to repost without it but both went up

“So let’s use the rule that it is Dec 4th. except before a leap year when it is Dec 5th.”

Yep that is the rule.

AaQ I don’t understand .
The calculation doesn’t work because it isn’t the way to calculate.
It’s 60 days from tekufas Tishrei using Tekufas Shmuel. Not 61 days from the autumnal equinox. Yes they often overlap but shpukdnt expect them to be the same .
Tekufas Shmuel is known to be flawed There is a more accurate tekufa of Rav Ada, bit we font use it for this because too complicated (Chazon Ish says this)

Thank you for the reminder

To calculate take Tekufas Tishrei according to Shmuel which this year was October 7 count 60 days (October 7 was day #1) giving the satrt day yom chamishi of this week
Yom Chamishi starts Wed night with Maariv, thus at Maariv on Wednesday night Dec 4th is the start date

In chutz l’aaretz doesn’t the change occur on Dec. 5 (instead of Dec. 4) on a secular leap year? 2024 is a leap year.

ubiq: Thank you. (I forgot that fact.)