- This topic has 84 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 11 months, 2 weeks ago by .
-
Posts
-
There is a joke about a yakke who said to his wife I will come home late we are starting today Vesen Tal Umotor.
I believe this year we start on Thursday night, December 5.
Tal umotor or Tal uengine?
And only 127 days until some in the tzibur have the minhag of removing “Mashiv HaRuach;” whereas most others replace it with the “Morid HaTal,”. It can get confusing unless you are a meteorologist or a rosh medinah who can control the weather with a black sharpie.
Meno is correct
as this year is a leap year, we start on Dec 5th, ie Thursday night.The reason for this is as follows:
Vesein tal umatar is said (in chu”l) 60 days after tekufas tishrei
for this calculation we use Tekufas Shmuel, that takes the year as ebing 365.25 days (ie 365 days 6 hrs)
There are 4 tekufos (seasons) each is a quarter of a year ie 91 days 7.5 hours. TekufasThus a season begins 6 hours later each year than in the previous year
Tekufas tishrei is always on October 7. however it moves up by 6 hours ever year2015 Oct 7 9 PM
2016 Oct 7 3 AM
2017 Oct 7 9 AM
2018 Oct 7 3 PM
2019 Oct 7 9PM
2020 Oct 7 3 AMNow, in 2016 and 2020. instead of the tekufa moving forward by 6 hours, it moved back by 18 hours. This is becasue there was an extra day in Feb 2016 and 2020 (leap years) thus the following October’s tekufa moved “back” a day add the 6 hours that always moves forward so net is moved back 18 hours.
Now to determine when you say vesein tal umatar count 60 days from October 7 (with Oct 7 being #1)
And you get December 5th.
however the halachic day begins the previous night. Thus last year Dec 5th was Wed, which halachicly begins Tuesday night (when our calendar day is still Dec 4th so in a typical year we start Maariv on Dec 4th.However every 4th year, the tekufa occurs on Oct 7th at 9 PM. This occurs in years before leap years. such as this year 2019. This year the Tekufa Tishrei was Oct 7 9 PM Halachikly this was Tuesday (although your calendar said Monday) 60 days after Tuesday (Oct 8 on the calendar) is Dec 6th. Thus this year 60 days after the Tekufa is Friday Dec 6th, we begin Vesein tal umatar at the start of this 60th day ie Thursday night when our calendar reads Dec 5th.
(The above holds true in the 20th and 21st centuries. in the 22nd century ie after 2100 chaneg all the date move up one the tekufa will occur on OCt 8, and Vesein tal umatar on the nights preceding Dec 6 and 7 (ie on Dec 5th and 6th)
Int eh 1800’s subtract a date, the tekufa was on OCt 6th and vesein tal umatar started the nigths preceding Dec 4th and 5th (ie on Dec 3rd and 4th)hope you dont mind the arichus, this is a topic that interests me and people often don;t have it quite right . I beleive this is the accurate, if perhaps technicla and wordy explanation.
please let me know if there is any errorGH: “have the minhag of removing “Mashiv HaRuach;”
Minhag?? or Halachah?
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49623&st=&pgnum=275
And Sif Gimmel in the Ramah
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49623&st=&pgnum=276
Reb Eliezer
“October 6 + 60 = Dec 5”the first day is counted (it (almost?) always is in halacha, eg Milah is on 8th day birth is day 1, bris is 7 days later)
October 7 is day 1
There are 24 days left in October (31 -7) Oct 31 is day 25
November has 30 days nov 30 is day 55
Dec 5th is Day 60 so at the start if Dec 5th (ie maariv the previous day) we say Vesein tal umatar“Equinox Tekufas Tishri = Sept 23”
i’m not sure where you got that.Beis yosef OC 117
וכתב הר”ד אבודרהם ויום ס’ יבוא בכ”ב מנובי”מברי (ד’ דעצעמ’) אם היה אותו פיברי”ר מכ”ח יום אבל אם היה פיברי”ר מכ”ט יום תהיה השאלה בכ”ג נובי”מברי (ה’ דעצעמ’) כי תקופת תשרי לעולם שבעה ימים קודם (ד’ או ה’ אקט”ברי)Tekufas Tishrei occured on September 24 pre advent of Julian Calendar 60 days before Nov 22 (including the first day)
This corresponds to Oct 7 on the Georgian calendar (add 13 days as you correctly pointed out )
The dates added in in the tur were in the 1800’s when Nov 22 julian = Dec 4 gregorian.
since 1900 when the Gregorian calendar skipped another leap year nov 22 Julian = Dec 5th GregorianAlso note and this is what further confuses people. The Beis yosef is telling you the 60th day of the Tekufa in his day Nov 22 or 23 . but this means that Vesein Tal umatar was said the night prior ie Nov 21 or 22
Its as if you tell your friend PEsach this year is Thursday April 7. This usually means that the Seder will be Wed night April 6. this can be confusing if you’re not clear.
Reb eliezer I have an easy way to remind you that October 7 is the tekufa
As you may recall In 2009 We said Birchas Hachama
This was on Erev PEsach ( remeber the fuss, how this is the first time since nes Purim, ( never mind that Purim which wasnt during birchas hachama, and it was Erev PEsach in 1925)
At any rate IT was April 8. and iyh in 2037 it will be April 8 and so on for the remainder of the 21st century.Birchas hacham is when the Tekufas nissan is at the start of Yom revii ie 6 PM on april Tue 7 then birchas hacham is recirted that day ie Wed April 8.
A tekufa is 91 days 7.5 hours. ( a quarter of 365 days 6 hrs)
Tekufas tammuz 2009 was Wed Jul 8 1:30 AM
Tekuffas Tishrei 2009 was Wed OCt 7 9 AMShifting gears adding a 6 hours
Tekufas tishrei 2010 was Wed Oct 7 3 PM
Tekufas tishrei 2011 was Wed Oct 7 9 PM (<- halachickly thursday)then there is an extra day in february 2012
so tekufas tishrei 2012 was Wed Oct 7 3 AMetc but it is always on OCt 7 (during this and last centuries)
see you at the next one in under 17 years!
Plot it out using excel. Cell A1 = 10/07/2019. Cell D9 – 60 cells from A1 is 12/05/2019.
Ubq thank you for the explanation. Fascinating.
“google 2019 automn equinox”
why? does google use tekufas shmuel?
“Simply check the automnomal equinox for the year.”
your method is simple and it does often work but not always the equinox for 2039 will be September 22 yet, as it is a year before a leap year vesein tal will be said on Dec 5th (your method leads to Dec 4th)I’m not sure what you are showing from the Rambam.
the relevent osurce is tefila 2:16
There the Rambam says
אֲבָל בְּשִׁנְעָר וּבְסוּרְיָא וּבְמִצְרַיִם וּבַמְּקוֹמוֹת הַסְּמוּכוֹת לְאֵלּוּ וְהַדּוֹמִין לָהֶן שׁוֹאֲלִין אֶת הַגְּשָׁמִים בְּיוֹם שִׁשִּׁים אַחַר תְּקוּפַת תִּשְׁרֵי:The machabar says the same
ברכת השנים צריך לומר בה בימות הגשמים ותן טל ומטר ומתחילין לשאול מטר בחוצה לארץ בתפלת ערבית של יום ס’ אחר תקופת תשריThe Rema brings ויום התקופה הוא בכלל הס’
and the mishna berura elaborates
כלומר יום שנפלה בו התקופה מחשבים מכלל הס’ אפילו אם התקופה נופלת בחצי יום או אח”כ רק שיהא קצת קודם הלילה ולעולם ב’ ימים בין התקופה להשאלה דאם התקופה ביום א’ השאלה בתפילת ערבית השייכה ליום ד’:In 2006 and 2002 the equinox was September 23 yet the vesein tal umatar was begun on Dec 4th (your method would lead to September 4th)
You think we need a reminder with this weather!?
“Ubi, I think when you say preceding you are making a mistake when It is Dec 4,…”
What is “it” in that sentence? when what is Dec 4?
“Why can’t we say everytime Dec 4 except before a leap year Dec 5”
We can! and we do! I’m just explaining how those dates are derived. But that is absolutely the rule for the 20th and 21st centuries
“and now I don’t care if 2100 is a leap year.”
I’m not sure what you mean, by “don’t care”
in 2099 we will recite it Dec 5th although 2100 isnt a leap year on the Gregorian calendar.Then going forward the rule will change to: we say everytime Dec 5 except before a leap year Dec 6 until 2200 when the dates will shift to Dec 6/7 nd then 2300 it will be Dec 7/8 in 2500 it will switch Dec 8/9 (note 2400 is a leap year so the dates wont change)
As an aside:
The date is moving forward 3 days in 400 years (or 1 day in 133.333 years). allowed to proceed long enough the start date will be in January then February etc eventually it will be in April. Of course the date of Pesach is moving ahead as well but at a slower rate ~1 day in 217 years (*see below) whih means at some point we will using our current rules we will start vesein tal umatar after Pesach! Of course a sanhedrin will be reestablished long before that, and will no doubt fix this bimheira beyameinu.*Our calendar assumes 19 years = 235 lunar months. Thus an average Jewish year ((235 x 28-12-793)/19) is 365 days 5 hours 997 chalakim 48 regaim. This is known as tekufas Rav Ada. It equals ~365.2468 days
A tropical year is 365.2422 days
Thus our calendar is moving ahead 0.0046 days relative to the seasons. Which is ` ~1 day in 217 yearsReb Eliezer, what you’re missing is that the Gregorian correction (10 days in the 16th century, plus 3 days since) brings the equinox back to what it was in the 4th century, when the date of Easter was established at the council of Nicaea. At that time the March equinox was on March 21, so Gregory corrected the calendar to bring it back to that date. But our Tekufos were set about 500 years before then, so Tekufas Nissan, instead of being on April 3 (March 21 + 13 days) is four days later, on April 7. This is also why Xmas is on the 25th rather than the 21st.
Reb eliezer I dont know the answer to your question on the Beis yosef. It is clearly a mistake I didnt see the avudraham inside Iwonder wha tit says there.
“ubi, you are contradicting yourself in two posts for Dec 5 . Meno is correct i.e.. Thursday night and maariv the previous day???”
no contradiction. (though a typo is possible someplace, please point it out) I grant it is confusing. i’ll break it down slowly:
There are two ways to say when we start vesein tal umatar.
This is true for any Jewish day.
Say someone asks when is chanuka this year? There are two possible answers you could correctly answer Monday Dec 23 ( ie the first day of Chanukah is Monday Dec 23) Or you could correctly answer Chanukah starts Sunday Dec 22. This isnt a contradiction, both are true. As you know Jewish days begin the night before so they are referring two 2 different things.The start day of vesein tal umatar is no different.
We start 60 days after the Tekufas Tishrei (according to Shmuel, not according to scientists), with the day of the tekufa being day #1.
Tekufas Tishrei this year was Monday October 7 at 9 PM. Halachicly this is Tuesday (October 8). (much like halachikly Friday night is Shabbos)
you now count 60 days with day #1 being Tuesday Oct 8. If you do this correctly you will find Day #60 to be Friday Dec 6.
Thus Friday (Dec 6th) is the first DAY we begin saying vesein tal umatar.
Friday begins thursday night at maariv (when your calendar says Dec 5th) So we start on Dec 5th2021* the chesbon is as follows:
Tekufas Tishrei in 2years will be Thursday October 7 at 9 AM.
you now count 60 days with day #1 being thu Oct 7. If you do this correctly you will find Day #60 to be Sun Dec 5.
Sunday (Dec 5th) is the first DAY we begin saying vesein tal umatar.
Sunday begins Motzei shabbos (Saturday night ) at maariv (when your calendar says Dec 4th) So we start on Dec 4 thMeno is correct “I believe this year we start on Thursday night, December 5.”
This is because Friday (Dec 6th) is the 60th day after the tekufa so Friday is the first DAY of vesein tal umatar. Friday starts Thursday night Dec 5th so we start Thursday night Dec 5thSo in short your rule “can’t we say everytime Dec 4 except before a leap year Dec 5” is true
*I skipped 2020 becuase there is a twist, but the premise is true:
Next year the chesbon is as follows:
Tekufas Tishrei next year will be Wed October 7 at 3 AM.
you now count 60 days with day #1 being Wed Oct 7. If you do this correctly you will find Day #60 to be Shabbos Dec 5.
Shabbos (Dec 5th) is the first DAY we begin saying vesein tal umatar.
Shabbos begins Friday night at maariv (when your calendar says Dec 4th) So we start on Dec 4 th (of course we dont say vesein tal umatar at maariv Friday night but thats a side issue, and interesting question arises, if someone says the wrong shemoneh esrei and realizes during baruch alinu, the halcha is he finishes the beracha, should he say vesein tal umatar Friday night ? On the one hand thats the start point, on the other hand klal yisroel didnt start yet? IIRC IShei yisreol says he says vesein beracha because klal yisreol didnt start yet)Actually the goyishe leap year is not the cause of us pushing off VTUM to Dec 6. The reason we push it off to Dec 6 is because according to our Cheshbon of tekufas which we have been counting for 5780 years, the sequence of fall tekufa falls out 3am, next year, 9am, next year 3pm, next year 9pm. In every 4th year when it falls out at 9pm, is it technically the next day already according to our reckoning of the start of the day at 6pm. So we push off VTUM to Dec 6. It just so happens that it follows the same pattern as the Julian calendar leap years, so we use that as a reference. The way it works out is when the NEXT year has a Feb 29, we push off VTUM the year earlier.
The Avudraham writes that if THAT year is a Julian leap year we push off a day. But he wrote that only according to the ancient calendar in which the year started March 1. According to that calendar we add a day the same year as the goyish leap year. But according to the currently universally accepted convention that the year starts Jan 1, we have to look to the NEXT year to determine if we should add a day.
RE
sure
There is always a 2 day difference between the day of the week when the tekufa is and the day of the week that we start saying vesen tal
for example if the Tekufa was Sunday then vesein tal is At Maariv for yom revvi (what we call Tuesday night which is the start of yom revii)This year the Tekufa was Tuesday (halachickly) so vesein tal is begun 2 days later in the week, at the start of Friday ie Thursday night
in 2021 The tekufa will be Thursday so vesein tal is begun 2 days later in the week at the start of sunday ie Motzoei shabbosshatzmatz
Your first paragraph is correct.
I have a questionon your second paragraph . do you have a source that the Julian calendar began March, I was under the impression it began in January . And even if they did the word “היה” still doesnt fit well.
My thought was that maybe he means if this year IS a goyish leap year, ie 5780 has an extra day in February, thoug hthis explanntion, even if more accurate, still suffers the same flaw. as היה doesnt quite mean “is” though perhaps this is better than “will be” which it clearly doesn’t meanThanks shatzmatz
I stand corrected . Although January 1st was known as New years, not all countries started the year January 1st. although many of them switched to starting in January even priro to accepting the Gregorian Calendar. In Spain in the !300’s (where the Avudaraham lived) January was no the start of the Year.
Thanks again, fascinating
Ubi
Think about this:
July used to be called SEXtember = 6th month
SEPTember = 7th month
OCTober = 8th month
NOVember = 9th month
DECember = 10th month
Jan = 11th
Feb = 12thThats why February was left holding the bag as the shortest month. It a leap year they simply added a day to the “end” of the year.
All this shows how ancient out mesorah is. history of 2500 years ago is reflected in the way we do mitzvos.
It’s mamish ah shanda that we use the goyishe calendar to decide when to change our davening.
It is not the goyishe calendar but the solar calendar. Why do we use it? because it doesnt fluctate like the lunar calendar.
The Pope changed the solar calendar 400 years ago. Why did we change our calculations for VTUM based on the Pope’s decision?
ujm
“Why did we change our calculations for VTUM based on the Pope’s decision?”
We didn’t change, we use the exact same calculation. However the Calendar you use changed.
SO for example Lets say someoen decides that its too confusing to call December “December” since it isnt the 10’th month and for now on we will call December “Dodecamber” Naturally we will start Saying Vesein Tal umatar on Dodecamber 4 or 5th. But not becasue WE changed our nomenclature, but because they did
We count 60 days from Tekufas Shmuel We always have. and still do . Tekufas Shmuel Assumes the year to be exactly 365 days and 6 hours. The Julian Calendar assumes the same. Society follows the Gregorian Calendar. So we use a different date, not because we changed, but because they did.
Tekufas Shmuel on the Calendar we use fell out Oct 7 3 AM. count 60 days (Oct 7 is #1) and Day 60 will Be Shabbos Dec 5th. So at the satrt of Shabbos ie Friday night Dec 4th we would have started Vesein tal umatar if we said baruch aleinu on Shabbos
If you prefer to use the Julian Calendar and ignore Gregory’s change.
Then Tekufas Shmuel this year was Wed Sep 24 3 AM. (on the Julian Calendar) 60 days later is Shabbos Nov 22 on the Julian Calendar (that is this week PArshas Vayishlack Nov 22 Julian = Dec 5 Gregorian) and Vesein tal umatar is on the same dayRE
There are a few minor inaccuracies in your discussion on the calendar
“whereas Jewish holdays are determined through the moon. Pesach is spring and Succos fall time”
This is a bit contradictory if holidays are by the moon then they have nothing to do with seasons. The truth is holidays are based on BOTH the moon and the sun. The DATE is based on the moon but has to be in right season based on the sun.
“that lunar year having normally 354 days”
There isnt really such a thing as a “lunar year*” we take 12 months and call it a year these years can vary 353, 354, 355 years of course there are leap years with 13 months with 383, 384, 385 days. I’m not sure what you mean by “normally” having 354 days. This isnt the most common length for a year (mode) nor the average (mean) . The average length for a year (rounded to the nearest whole number) is actually 365 exactly as you said to keep it in sync with the sun.This is why the Gemara in Makkos says Hasatan = 364 corresponding to the days of the year minus Yom kipppur. Many wonder why use the “goyish calendar” or the “solar calendar” The answer is simple. The number of days in an (average) Jewish year is 365 (rounded to the whole number). There is no such thing a “Days in a lunar year” A lunar year doesn’t have days it has 12 lunar months . For example see Megillah 5a Where we learn “lechodshei hashana” that we count months for a year not days. see RAshi there. If we DID count days the number of days in a year is 365 and if someone made a neder not to drink wine for a year if you count by days would have to wait 11 days longer . But we DON’t count days we count Months so after 12 months can drink wine again. it might be 3 53, 354 or 355 days but we dont count days.
“The variation of the two months above causes the movement of Rosh Hashanah as Adu lo Rosh,”
The opposite is true Lo Adu Rosh (and other dechuyos) determine how many days are in kislev and cheshvan . the Molad for Tishrei 5782 is Monday Night. Because the molad is after noon Rosh Hashana is pushed to Tuesday. Because Rosh hashana is pushed to Tuesday (not pushed because Lo adu rosh, but principle is the same), and thsi past Rosh Hashana was Shabbos we need a calendar with 353 days So we make both cheshvan and Kislev chaser with 29 days “subtracting” a day from the 354 days we get by having 6 months of 29 alternatign with 6 months 30 ( (6×30)+(6×29) = 354).
The reason why we don;t want Rosh hashana on Friday or Wednesday is to avoid Y”K on Sunday or Friday which see R”H 20a(* Similarly, there isnt really such a thing a solar month. We take a solar year (approximately 365 days) and divide it into 12 arbitrary chunks of time varying 31/30 days (and one 28) )
These are admittedly minor “inaccuracies” and forgive my nitpicking. I just enjoy the topic
RE
Thats fair, and in academic literature this year which seforim refer to as “kesidron” is referred to as “normal” (though a 384 day long leap year is also refereed to as “normal” )
If a person accidentally starts Baruch aleinu tonight (*Friday Dec 4th) he completes the beracha.
does he say Vesein Tal umatar livracha?
At first glance. Of course he does, it is the 60th day after the tekufa so we start asking for rain. Of course we don’t actually start until Motzei Shabbos only becasue we dont say baruch aleinu on shabbos. In a scenario where you would say Baruch aleinu (like above case) . Seem like you SHOULD say Vesein tal umatar
However I vaguely recall seeing in Ishei Yisroel that the fellow doesnt say vesein tal, since Klal yisroel hasnt started yet, so should continue to say vesein beracha. I looked and can’t find it. Does anyone know any sources that address this ?
עד תפילת המנחה – ואם טעה במעריב ליל ראשון של פסח והתפלל תפלת ש”ע של חול ונזכר לאחר שהתחיל ברך עלינו שהדין הוא שצריך לסיים כל אותה ברכה כמש”כ בסימן רס”ח אינו אומר טל ומטר כיון שגם הצבור אינם אומרים. ואם חלה השאלה ביום שבת וטעה והתפלל של חול והתחיל ברך עלינו ג”כ אינו אומר טל ומטר כיון שהציבור עדיין לא התחילו והיחיד נגרר תמיד אחר הצבור [מ”א]:
ביאור הלכה
קי”ז
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.