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AAQ, I will add something to it. Davening to understand Torah aliba dehilchasa, to reach halacha will help in learning.
1,
“Where does it say you can’t go “Kulah shopping” Muttar is mussar assur is assur.”
That’s an oversimplification. Why keep halachos at all? To serve Hashem. Should we serve Hashem like we love Him and want to do the best we can, or like the halachos are loathsome to us and we seek every out we can get to lessen our burden of having a G-d, C”V? Sometimes the act of asking a shaila when we know the potential answers, by putting the decision outside of ourselves, is a means to better serve Hashem. Shopping for the answer we want is better than not asking a shaila at all, but does it show more of a desire to do Hashem’s will, or our own?
Da – where is this issur mentioned?.
Excessive chumros are discouraged, al tehi tzadik harbeh, but they’re definitely not forbidden.
Also, wanting to satisfy multiple opinions is not “searching” for chumros.
The Chidah explains that everyone eats gebrochs on the last day of Pesach to show that it is a chumra and not an issur whereas issur of kitniyos for the ashkanazim applies also the last day.
I am surprised that nobody hear has ever learned avos. @1, Have you never heard the words “Asei Lecha Rav”? You are supposed to have 1 Rav for yourself- one person who you ask your shailos to, and you should do whatever he says. If your Rav tells you something is assur, then that is your psak and you should consider it assur. If you then go and find a Rav who will mattir it for you, then it really shows something bad about you. It displays that you have very little or no yiras shamayim- you only want to do the ratzon Hashem if it works out for you, and if it doesn’t, then you will make it work. At this point, why wouldn’t you just go to a reform Rav, who will mattir anything for you. By going kulah shopping, you show that you have no realy respect for halacha, and that you do not understand in any way how halacha works.
I hope you only wrote that there is nothing wrong with kulah shopping as a troll.Aveirah, it can be an issue of Yuhara to search out chumros. I did a Google search to find an exact source, and actually it turned up an old thread from the Coffee Room (and my old friend Feif Un): https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/taking-on-chumros
Also look up what R’ Shlomo Wolbe said about proper Avodas Hashem vs serving your own ego and desires to be more “frum”, without considering what it actually means.
Shmili, you don’t have to always ask one Rav. It may work out depending on a person and on the Rav.
Sometimes, a person who is already knowledgeable may ask shailos in medicine from a Rabbi who specializes in that, and so on. Of course, the same may be achieved by you asking your Rav and Rav going to a specialist. This is, l’havdil’ like a primary doctor recommending a specialist.
In many cases, chumra is a neder, taken by you or your ancestors. Changing it would require hatarat nedorim. Taking nedarim is generally discouraged. Many examples of nedarim is due to impulsivity or personal conflict (I swear I am not giving you my saw any more), or desire to control your impulses. It is way better to not do them, but some may need it.
We are all familiar with popular chumros bein Adam l’Hashem. Is there an accepted list for bein Adam l’Havero?
If not, we should learn such from Gemora. Gemora has examples of how special Rabbis behave. There are also halachik discussions where something may or may not be allowed because it may lead to something else. Conclusion is often more permissive. We can learn chumros form the other opinion there.
Damoshe, when something is yuhara the poskim say it’s yuhara. Usually it’s when it’s something excessive that nobody else around you – bnei torah, not ignorant smartphone heada – does.
The Pischei Teshuva questions, what is the prohibition of chalav akum? He says that if is not rabbinical then it is worse as it becomes biblical as a neder taken on.
Shmili it doesn’t mean you can’t take advice from more than one Rabbi. I think that’s the flaw with the chasidish world. Whenever one person says that’s what’s done or your in cherem.
“I did not research this beyond the visuals.”
Can I take this as a confession that you have very little insight into the actual groups among the ultra-orthodox?
n0, I live “OOT” as you’d call it. Thus, I meet all kind of people out of their natural environment or see them during brief stays there. I talked about a number of issues with people with various, but do not interrogate them about every minhag. I generally separate people by their middos , learning, not whether they wear same socks as I do (confession: _some_ socks preferred, I am not 100% open minded).
Okay. Let me educate you. Almost any group of Chassidim are not machmir more than any group to the right of MO. You will always find individual outliers, but as a group they are not into chumros. The individuals that you identify as Chassidim outside of their locale, are much more likely to be more strict in their observant than the mainstream.
Although, they have some areas where they are generally more stringent eruvin is definitely not one of them.
On Yehurah.
“Usually it’s something excessive that nobody around you does.”
Please use an objective standard. It will then be useful even for Jews who follow the Torah regardless of their social pressures.
No – clearly you’ve only been around baalebatish chasidishe people, who are no more knowledgeable in halacha than their litvishe counterparts, both of whom know and keep far more than right wing MO, with the exception of those who learned under rabbi shechter and stayed in kollel elyon – they do keep halacha to that extent, and even moreso sometimes.
But chasidishe and litvishe kollelleit are very into chumros. Take a look at one of them, and you’ll see.
Avira > “Usually it’s something excessive that nobody around you does.”
n0> Please use an objective standard.it is an objective standard. Fitting in the community is a Torah value (that I find hard :). Torah allows for social pressures. Shalom is a Torah value and it is achieved by people following the norms. R Steinsaltz writes that one of the reasons of nervous breakdown in EY is that you have people from multiple very different cultures in the same bus every day annoying each other by their mannerisms.
Dear Always,
Something that depends on the praxis of the surrounding society is not one bit objective. The rest of your post is not clear. Or untrue.
Dear Avira,
You did not contradict my post.
As in ‘to the right of MO’ is not ‘right wing MO’.
Halachah is not chumros.
Where did kolleliet get into this?
n0 > Something that depends on the praxis of the surrounding society is not one bit objective.
Sholom is an objective Torah value (that, according to Kotzker, does not always go well with Emes, but this is a different story). To achieve sholom, one is required to follow the norms/majority/accepted behaviors. For example, see Mishna Pesachim that one is required to follow chumros of the place one is visiting (as well as his own).
Aaq, chazal say that sholom is bad for reshoim, it lets them sin more. I don’t see how you can call it an independently important calue.
Dear Always,
Please make sense. Anything which depends on the surrounding norms, is intrinsically subjective. Using a word in an untruthful manner does not help your point.
Shalom = Harmony does not at all depend on the surrounding norms. Harmonious people are not impeded by the various cultural differences.
The Mishna in Pesachim is not because of Shalom or anything like that.
Dear Avirah,
There is a johnny-come-lately chumros movement in all kollelim today. And it’s anarchy. Find a senior posek who approves of thirty year olds that can’t remember what their father did but will pick up any chumra in the newest publication.
how many yungeleit have fathers who rubbed stains with saliva off of their jackets on shabbos?
Quite a high number.
Achshar Dara.
Avira > chazal say that sholom is bad for reshoim, it lets them sin more. I don’t see how you can call it an independently important calue.
you are getting carried away. If you play a shot game every time you mention “sholom” in your davening, you’ll be drunk by Mussaf. And we end with “talmidei chachomim merabim sholom b’olam”, which I see as one of the criteria for a T. Ch. – you are one if you increase sholom (NOT an only one).
n0 > Anything which depends on the surrounding norms, is intrinsically subjective
First, implementation of all mitzvos bein adam l’havero are subjective to begin with – they depend on how the other person will be affected. What is honor for one, is a dishonor for another. So, this “subjective” is not a chiddush.
Maybe you mean “subjective” as a danger of deciding what to do on your own, with a great danger of rationalizing either kulos or chumros, whatever fits your current state of mind. This is, of course, a great danger and that is indeed why we often have often rules that limt our “creativity” – a bird belongs to the house if there are less than 50 amos, etc.
On a personal note, my nature is mostly to contradict norms, so you can rely on me when I call for following the norms 🙂 In most cases, when I bring the idea of following norms, it is either direct from the sources or something I heard form a Rav. I don’t tend to come up with chidushim calling for unity. I need to work more on that…
n0 > Find a senior posek who approves of thirty year olds that can’t remember what their father did but will pick up any chumra in the newest publication.
As Avira says, the yeshiva movement raises up average observance level by establishing their own norms. It generally achieves the intended purpose and saved several generations of Yidden not just from spitting on their jackets but from outright assimilation. Of course, with such tremendous growth, most of the 2nd and 3rd generation of teachers are the product of the system and your call for remembering what their parents do falls on deaf ears. How do we combine successes of large-scale education with keeping deeper Jewish values?
The yeshiva movement has definitely raised observance on some levels. But on average, it’s not so clear. Yeshiva guys today put in less learning hours today.
Dear Always,
No! No. No, no. And a thousand times No! A Mitvah toward another individual is specific to that person’s needs. Physical or emotional. It can be objective that they need it. But even without that qualifier your a thousand miles off. It has simply nothing to do with standard norms (which are always subjective).
I don’t know for sure what you intended by “Torah allows for social pressures”, but if your way of treating others is based on the local, social, norms, your likely hurting many people.
I still think that taking a kulah or two is not frowned upon. The case in point of the OP is a bad example.
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