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I’m conducting a survey on the Get experience. If you’ve started or been through the process, could you please answer these questions. I will sum up at the end. The purpose of this survey is to resolve the conflicting stories on how the Get process works in “real life.”. We’re hoping this survey settles the conflicting opinions. If you would be kind enough to respond, please answer the following:
i) Who wanted the divorce? Husband, wife, both parties?
ii) What were the party (ies) reasons for wanting the Get?
iii) When you went to the beis din, did you already have a secular divorce?
iv) What decision did the Beis Din take? e.g., order spouse to issue/accept Get? order parties to go to counseling? Issue a Get right away without much resistance? etc…
v) After counseling, if one of the parties still wanted a Get, was one issued?
vi) If the beis din refused to issue or order a Get, thereby forcing husband and/or wife to stay in the marriage, what happened, i.e., did the “forced party/parties” actually stay in the marriage? Did the marriage work going forward?
vii) What city was the Beis Din located in?
I’m a family law attorney.
I B”H have not been thru the Get process but many of my clients have.
I answer your questions based on the most recent experience of a male client (August 2016) This was a 16 year marriage with no children.
Who wanted the divorce…the man
What was the reason for wanting the Get: Remarriage in the future
The Secular Divorce was in place before going for Get
The Beis Din asked both parties if they understood the Get and process and wished one issued. Both parties answered yes and the Get was written and issued on the spot
Connecticut secular courts require counseling before granting a divorce, so the Beis Din does not usually do so (this is my editorializing)
The Dayanim/sofer/Eidim were Chasidim from Brooklyn who cane to CT for the purpose of the Get and met in my conference room. I have used this particular group a number of times.
when one person.goes to secular court the other is forced to follow. that will age you and take you away from.your kids even.when.yoi are home! Many rabbonim.do not know how to help women in.tricky situations, but all.you need is ONE to vouch for you, and never drag anyone to court unless you have a really really good reason. and I dont know too many good reasons!
Lenny1970
I can only speak to what is ‘normal’ in CT, not NY or other places.
Our civil divorce laws require a minimum of 120 days from filing suit until a divorce may be granted. Couples are also required to undergo counseling before a divorce can be granted and a report form the counselor must be submitted to the judge.The judges generally will not accept a report that shows just one or two sessions for the purposes of satisfying the court, usually a minimum of 6 months of weekly sessions is required.
I have had the Beis Din require that the counseling report submitted to the civil court also be resented to the Beis Din for examination. This generally eliminates the Beis Din sending the couple for counseling or attempts at reconciliation.
In my experience the couple always goes through the civil divorce process before the Get process. This way, all financial/custody issues have been settled before reaching the Beis Din.
It always goes more smoothly when a divorce is uncontested, be it civil or Beis Din.
Last Year I represented a female in a civil divorce. After it was granted, the husband refused to go to the Beis Din to obtain and give a Get…he tried to extract benefits in exchange for doing so. I had written the Prenuptial agreement prior to marriage and it stated that in event of a civil divorce both parties will cooperate in swiftly obtaining a Get issued by an Orthodox Beis Din.
We went back to the Family Court Judge, who ordered the ex-husband to appear before the Beis Din and complete the Get process within 30 days or be subject to civil court penalties. In this case the Judge was not enforcing religious law, but a valid contract under civil law.
From experience, if a couple lives in an insular frum community they may seek redress in a Beis Din before or instead of civil court. OOT one only goes to the expense to bring in a Beis Din when the marriage is over, civil divorce granted and a Get should be issued, the Beis Din does this in an expedient manner.
In all my years as a family law attorney who then takes Jewish clients through the Get process I have never seen a Beis Din consider the existence of children in granting the Get. The support/custody issues have been resolved before the parties ever see the Beis Din
If your wife does not want to be married to you, why do you even bother, Even if the Beis Din refuses to grant your divorce. Having a wife who hates you and doesnt want to be with you is not a great experience either.
I am not divorced or a divorce lawyer, but in general if a couple must get divorced an amicable divorce is the best way to go especially if there are children. Even if the couple hates either other, they need to be civil for the children.
I am guessing here, but if there is already a civil divorce, Most Beis Dins will just grant the Get, Most Beis dins really have no desire for couples to stay together who hate either other, or at least one of them wants out. They know its a recipe for disaster
CTL, a Get given by a husband under orders from a non-Jewish court, even if enforcing an agreed civil agreement/prenup, is deemed under halacha to be a “Get Me’usa”, an invalid Get, and the Shulchan Aruch states that the wife remains married and if she has future children with another purported husband using that earlier Get Me’usa they are halachicly deemed to be mamzeirim.
ZD, a civil divorce is halachicly meaningless as to whether beis din is halachicly authorized and able to order a Get be given based on the circumstances.
This all depends on is the divorce mutual agreeable in which case the Bais Din will rubber stamp the Civil Courts decision although I know of one case when they didn’t. The couple had remarried 3 times and was trying for the fourth time to get divorced. The Bais Din said they needed long term counseling not a get.
If the divorce is contested and either party wants reconciliation and is given time to reconcile. If the time elapsed and they are not reconciled They go back to Bais Din and can request additional time to reconcile. If they are still not reconciled by the allotted time then I think the husband should get a Toyan which is a lawyer for Jewish Court. He will advocate for you and will present your case in the best light.At this point evidence is presented and witnesses are cross examined by both parties and the case is judge and a verdict is eventually is issued. A Siruv is the equivalent of a Contempt of Court and is issued when the losing party doesn’t follow their ruling. It is only issued if the winner agrees to pay the Jewish Courts’s legal fees if they are sued in Civil Court.
Lenny1970
Re: Civil Divorce Laws (CT)
If a spouse files for divorce and meets all the filing/counseling requirements the Civil Court MUST grant a divorce.
This is NOT what No Fault Divorce means. No Fault Divorce means that in an uncontested divorce the court cannot weigh fault of one party (adultery, cruelty, desertion, etc.) in determining how marital assets will be split.
In a contested divorce, e.g. husband wants a divorce, wife doesn’t…wife was caught cheating on husband with another man, the court can apportion fault and reduce the share of marital assets. This has nothing to do with alimony or child support which follow state guidelines (which do allow for deviation for special circumstances).
Joseph…
I have seen/heard your point about a Get Me’usa before. In these cases the Civil court is not forcing the recalcitrant husband to issue the Get. He is reminded of the binding contract he signed before marriage and is given 30 days to cure the breach or be held liable for damages. If he chooses to cure the breach by going to the Beis Din and then giving the Get it has been considered valid by our LORs as well as some poskim who have been consulted. This is not a case where a civil court judge says comply or go to jail. The breach of the prenuptial agreement is a contract law issue and the penalty for breach is to pay damages.
BTW here in CT if a couple obtains a Get from a recognizable Beis Din before going for a Civil Divorce, judges tend to enter the Jewish Divorce into the record and only deal with custody, visitation and financial matters.
Lenny1970
B”H my experience with clients and the Beis Din issuing a Get is limited. In 35+ years of legal practice maybe 30 cases have gone to the Beis Din (most of my clientele is not Jewish).
I only remember 2 cases where one party didn’t want to complete the Get process after a civil divorce was already in case.
One was a husband who thought he could extract financial concessions from his ex-wife in exchange for giving the get. I reminded him that this also meant he was not free to remarry…if 20 years from that momment he wanted to and didn’t know where his ex-wife had relocated, he’d be stuck. Furthermore, I would tell the civil court judge of his antics and no modification of the divorce/support/alimony/custody orders would be granted. He saw the light and completed the process.
The other was a female who truly did not want a divorce. She was afraid that her younger sisters would be unable to make a good shidduch if it was known the eldest sister was divorced. She and her husband agreed that she would relocate to Florida (they had no children) and give her sisters 3 years to marry. At that time the Get would be completed and given, leaving the husband free to remarry.
It turned out not to matter…she had a heart attack and passed away about 3 days after coming to this agreement.
BUT…to really answer your final question. The Beis Din can’t force a man to physically hand his wife a get, nor can they physically hold her with her hands in place to receive the Get….most couples who have a secular divorce attorney and a case filed in civil court know that a divorce will occur and they might as well both be free to get on with their lives/remarry.
CTL, What you describe is a textbook case of a Get Me’usa described in the Shulchan Aruch. Any action at all taken by a non-Jewish court to further or encourage the deliverance of a Get, specifically including the application or even threat of application of a financial penalty (even with no possibility of jailing) that will result in case of non-delivery of a Get, including even a previously contractually agreed upon financial payment for not giving a Get, results in a Get Me’usa according to Halacha and specifically described in S”A.
A halachicly invalid Get. There’s a large section in Shulchan Aruch dealing with such instances.
Lenny The Bais Din accepts the the Civil Courts’s divorce as proof there are irreconcilable differences. If they already have a civil court’s divorce they are already living separately, custody, child support and any other financial arrangement are already done. All Bais Din is doing is rubber stamping the Civil Court’s divorce.
Joseph’s high bar is only when one of the parties is contesting the divorce in Bais Din after the Civil Court already issued a divorce, in which case the civil court’s divorce is set aside and justification is needed for the divorce.
I don’t think your wife want an actual divorce she would have filed for divorce sooner, all she wants is behavior modification, which marriage counseling should help you with. If there is a civil court divorce than the spouses are already living separately and the only thing the get is going to do is allow them to remarry someone else. If there is no civil court divorce there is nothing preventing the wife from moving out and filing for a civil court divorce. You can fight the civil divorce but she will be granted the divorce. Eventually you will realize you have irreconcilable differences and you will grant her a get and move on with your life.
Lenny, you never answered zahavasdad’s question about why you would want to be married to a person who does not want to be married to you. This is an issue I’ve wondered about since you started posting.
My other question is, when you say “the couple should work it out”, what does that mean? Do you expect your wife to do the working or are you willing to change as well?
“What I can’t figure out is if one of the spouses absolutely wants out, and the Beis Din says they can’t have out, what happens to the marriage going forward? Thanks.”
Lenny, you seem like a nice guy, I just have a few questions for you. What is wrong with you?? What do you think happens to the marriage? If your wife doesn’t want to be in the marriage and she is forced to stay in it, then she will probably make your life miserable until you give her a Get.
Since you seem to need this spelled out for you… If she wanted to drive you crazy, she can 1) Stop doing housework; 2) Stop making food; 3) Embarrass you in public; 4) Constantly be screaming at you and making your life miserable…
That is just a few things that can take place. Lenny. TAKE A HINT. Your wife doesn’t want to be with you–just give her a Get and move on. Stop trying to force her to be in a marriage because she will be miserable and will hate you. Unfortunately, you can meet with 1000 Rabbis, but even if they can force her to stay married to you, they cannot force her to love you or to even treat you respectfully.
I don’t believe your wife wants a divorce after 25 years all she wants is behavior modification. But that said, there is no magic formula to keep you and your wife together if she really wants a divorce. If you are scared she is considering divorce you may want to speak with a divorce attorney he will be better able to advise you, but if your wife files for divorce she can get half of the family’s assets and she can get as much as 75% (very rare) of your income for alimony and child support. This will have an impact on your family’s quality of life. Depending on the age of you children you may need to have a family conference explaining that you and your wife are breaking up so some expenses have to be eliminated so if the divorce goes through vacations will be eliminated, Ivy League education will be replaced by state college if possible, for example. This will serve two purposes it will inform the children that a divorce is coming so it wouldn’t come as a shock. It will also tell them the ramification of a divorce. Also say that the divorce is not your idea. This may convince your wife to continue the marriage at least until all the kids have finished their education.
Making the other partner “The Bad Guy” and playing “Good Cop” “Bad Cop” is one of the worst ideas Ive seen here. You are messing with your kids heads and it could backfire as they might take sides and that side might be AGAINST YOU
“What if the “denied” spouse becomes intolerable?”
Lenny. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think that the Beis Din will force your wife to be nice to you? Not going to happen. She will become intolerable and then your life will be miserable until you give her a Get.
It’s time for you to join reality. You cannot force someone to love you and be happy with you. You have 2 options: 1) Give her a Get; or 2) FORCE her to stay in the marriage- and wait for her to try her best to ruin your life and make you hate waking up in the morning.
Again, stop asking what the Beis Din can/cannot do–and start thinking about how real life works…
Lenny, if one spouse definitely wants out after having tried for several years to make things work and after mediation and therapy were attempted and failed, and the other one is refusing to get divorced, the Rabbanim will usually try to convince him to give a Get, and most men will realize they are not accomplishing anything by refusing to give a Get in such a case.
If your marriage is that important to you and you still want to try to make things work, your focus right now should be on trying to figure out if and how you can make your wife happy and not on how you can force her to stay married to you against your will. And making her happy is not about money; it’s about listening to her complaints and not invalidating them.
You need a good divorce lawyer to try to save some of your assets If it goes to Civil Court.You need to be prepared as you wife can spring it on you at anytime. Maybe the next time you both are in a marriage session or in the Bais Din you say you realize the marriage is over and offer the house and some money with a trail separation for a year. The Bais Din can handle custody and the financial aspects and the Civil Court will rubber stamp it if it’s reasonable and everyone agrees. If she can live on her own you will be divorced in a year but if she needs you as an ATM there will be no divorce.
Hatzlacha!
Wishing you the best. Hopefully you can be reconciled bur be prepared mentally for the divorce.
I know of a case where the woman refuses to accept a get, they already have a civil divorce, she just wants revenge, trash-mouths the husband all over town—and beit din in brooklyn, ny, is now recommending heter meah rabbunim to the husband.
edited
Francorachel3: I don’t know the situation. Still maybe this woman is frustrated that her husband is seen and treated like an angel when she knows a different man at home. It doesn’t mean that she can speak lashon hara, but maybe she just wants someone to validate her experience and realize that she’s not the bad guy in this situation.
Also, who knows. Maybe her husband has black-mailed her and/or the get would severely compromise her livelihood.
Again, I don’t know, and am trying to judge her with a favorable eye.
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