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Docelisheva,
In Israel there is a different pressure. Civil marriage for Jews doesn’t exist. (I don’t know what the situation is for two non-Jews marrying each other.) The Chief Rabbinate and Halacha have sole authority over marriage.
An eved ivri could be married against his will irregardless of whether he or she were attracted to each other.
I think a question i have to ask is if the Torah never said anything about this kind of behavior would you all be ok with this ruling?
Goq, who cares? The Torah does say it, and belief in, and following the Torah is not optional.
Also, as Sam pointed out in this thread, without Torah, society goes downhill.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-happens-when-god-is-removed
There is no civil marriage in Israel, however israel recognizes marriages performed out of the country. So Any marriage of any kind performed in another country legally in that country is valid in israel, even same gender unions.
I think it matters because some peoples opposition in this area is based more on ickiness than their religious beliefs when this topic comes up they get so fervent in their opposition and for other Torah infractions they seem not to get so worked up.
DY – “This is what R’ Moshe Feinstein and others zt”l held, and you have no right to have taynas on the Agudah for following this mehalech”
I really don’t think R’ Moshe ztl would hold nowadays you could support Toaivah candidates, because of all the things they will be implementing in the future! I think you and others like you, are in Denial that it will just stop with marriage. This is just the beginning, Lo Alainu.
Joseph, an eved Ivri could not be married against his will. However, if he was sold by the bet din he could be compelled to live with a shifcha Kenanit in order to produce avadim kenani’im.However, not if he sold himself. (Rambam, Hilchot Avadim 3:3).
I really don’t think R’ Moshe ztl would hold nowadays…
That’s what everyone says when they don’t like an opinion of R’ Moshe’s.
“however what is legally wrong with marrying one’s sister (what i meant originally when i said blood relatives)”
or today a father, or a brother?
don’t forget we now allow this evil lunacy
my statement on this law
ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalanu, dabarnu dofi, etc
“Even the Agudah’s “we do not seek to impose our religious principles on others” is weak. In fact, we wish we could, but alas, it’s technically true that we don’t, because we can’t.”
yes we could Agudah admits it met with Cuomo before the gay “marriage” bill.
The only reason they were there was to help him craft religious “exemptions” which is the sole reason it had the votes to pass!
Agudah supported MANY of the legislators who voted for the law.
the bill passed by only 2 votes in the senate, and 5 in the assembly.
we had the ability to stop it if we cared we didn’t, we failed, we will suffer, and if we don’t do teshuva we will face the punishment for the biggest avrah in Jewish history(serious of)!
“This was the approach of the gedolim in Europe.”
to compare Europe to America is irreverent for most of Europen Jewish history we lived under monarchies, and even when under parliaments we were not dealing with any legislation that effected any 7 mitzvos that we could have possibly chained with out causing a massacre worse than the Holocaust. Jews in Europe were also in parliament system so anything we would do would be seen with extra suspicion, remember Agudah was a real legal political party in Poland like in Israel, and those who opposed it thought it would cause eivah. To compare America to Europe is like comparing a hatzlah member working Shabbos to a banker
PS: It’s known that the Chofitz Chaim tried to start a 7 mitzvos campaign in Europe.
“adifferent opinions and scenarios related to this issue, and specifically about how the Agudah deals with it.”
this machlokes you created is really a machlokes in pesukim between dovid and Shlomo
Dovid said tov li toras picha mialfai zahav vichesef
Shlomo said kesef yana es hakol
we know hilchisa kibasra
so therefore Agudah paskens like Shlomo Hamelech
Torah613Torah
This will effect us, according to halacha the rabbanim of America should have been gozer a fast day!
but they didn’t even have to do it, HKB did one better, he was gozer 2 fast days
This happened on friday parshas chukas in which the french burnt 24 cartloads of talmuds, which the rishonim were gozer a fast day, and more importantly it’s the 9th of Tamuz which was the day that the Babylonians entered the Yerushalim. We know that the first Beis Hamikdash was destroyed for sexual imorality. The 9th day it seems was the original fast of Tamuz which we changed after the destruction of beis sheni. We know that the fast of Tamuz will eventually be turned into a yom tov but the question is which one? The event of the recent days make it very clear that the 9th will never turn into a yom tov because a day like that can by definition never be a Yom Tov!
Remember Avraham was also picked not just because he was opposed to the positions of the world but he tried to change to world to be closer to HKB, there are many medrashim with Avraham trying to influence the world, which is the reason some of Chazal attack Noach for not doing in his generation (one that the medrish also says had same sex “marriage) to change them back to god. If we want to be proper beni Avraham and not beni Noach only do we have to oppose these laws but we have to lead the opposition to these laws! If we do what we are supposed to do regarding fighting these types of laws, God will help protect us from
Right now our job is to do teshuva for supporting all the candidates that allowed any teovah bills to pass (including Republicans like Skelos), we have to teach our children that this is one of the worst averas under the sun and we will not accept it even if they through us in jail or worse.
Your statement about tearing Kriya did a lot to reassure me that there is still much good in klal yisorel despite the fact that we (talking about “Orthodox” Jews) allowed this day to happen, and we can do Teshuva without piraniyus!
“Joseph, it should be further clarified that gentile women in the news.are not over on anything”
vayikra rabbah includes lesbian “marriages” as the cause of the mabul
TO bring up the votes for Romney or Obama is a pretty intellectually shallow move.
Romney’s campaign pitch was not “vote for me because I am a Mormon”, in fact he was criticized by some for not contrasting the fact that he was obviously a man of faith vs Obama’s dubious record on the matter.
The entire pitch that Romney made was based on his economic know how and Obama’s ineptitude on the World stage.
Again his faith was tangential at best.
However in the case that was recently decided 5 lawyers decided that a term that was until now reserved exclusively for the unique relationship between a man and a woman will be redefined to put relationships that the Torah, and until several years ago, the entire world understood were in no way the same.
As such this decision directly and with obvious intent seeks to redefine what is considered moral and right in the world we live in.
What should be even more cause for concern is the fact that there are Jewish Justices that were part of the majority decision.
In light of what this decision means there is no way to describe it other then to so state the obvious.
It’s a tragedy, and particularly for us who have to now raise our children in a world that has deemed immorality moral and morality immoral.
2 non Jewish women in lesbian relationship is frowned upon by the torah in the strongest terms, we learn out the prohibition of lesbianism from the disgusting ways of Egypt, furthermore the medrish says lesbian “marriages” were one of the cause of the mabul.
So even if it were not technically forbidden it’s still clear from the Torah it’s evil! In fact by the 7 mitvos there is much room to say that some actions that are not included are even worse than those that are. We know this from the fact that god gave a special dispensation for Kayin to marry his sister even though the world could have been populated through adam and his daughter that would according to the the tanaim we pasken like not have violated any halachas,but would have been worse haskaficly, so god gave a special suspension of the issur of a sister for kayan, so adam would not have married his daughter who was mitur al pi halacha to him
DH: Your whole Shtickel is against a Yerushalmi. And there are lots of different reasons Bayis Rishon was destroyed. Some include Arayos. But it wasn’t an Ikkur.
Akuperma (I think): 2 women is an Issur of Ma’aseh Eretz Mitzrayim, which is not one of the Sheva Mitzvos.
Comparisons to our attitudes toward Shabbos descecrators and Mormon polytheists are inapposite. People who don’t observe Shabbos don’t do it because they don’t believe in the Torah, or the Oral Torah. It’s an issue of revelation. Similary, Mormons don’t think there’s a rational argument for polytheism; they just believe it because they think it’s part of their revelation from God.
Homosexuality is different, and poses a dire ideological threat to traditional Jewish belief and observance. This is because they have a logical (though incorrect) argument. They think that homosexuality is benign and causes no personal or social problems (again incorrect, but they’re unwilling to look at the data objectively), and that if consenting adults want to do something and it doesn’t hurt anybody then society should not only tolerate it but treat it the same as more traditional relationships.
Even if it is wrong even on secular terms, this argument has powerful appeal to many people, including many Orthodox youth. The problems is that once they believe that, it is very hard to believe in the Torah and Yiddishkeit with complete faith.
If people opposing gay marriage are hateful, fearful bigots, then why isn’t the Torah hateful and fearful and bigoted (c”v’s!)? Without a doubt, many young Orthodox Jews who have been exposed to liberal gay marriage arguments are going off the derech because they think the Torah is wrong not to support these lifestyles. (I’ve already met once such person, a teen who apparently went off the derech due to this issue, even though it didn’t affect her personally).
Now that the Supreme Court has took their side, saying it’s a basic human right and anyone else is a hater, this view will spread throughout society, making it harder for young Jews to avoid being exposed to and convinced by it.
We need to insulate our children from modern politics and culture, including from unsupervised internet access, as much as we can. Even an hour or two on liberal websites could seed their minds with doubts and heretical beliefs. We should all consider making aliyah as well.
“DH: Your whole Shtickel is against a Yerushalmi. And there are lots of different reasons Bayis Rishon was destroyed. Some include Arayos. But it wasn’t an Ikkur.”
1. we pasken like the bavli over the yerushalmi in general and specifically in this case
2. it’s a machlokes in the yerushalmi and I have a strong doubt that you can explain all the questions on that Yerushalmi (both shitas)? (I’ve never seen such strong lashon by a mifurash on a Yirushalmi as there is by one the main meforshim over there) because of the fact that this yerushalmi has more questions I’m going to follow all the rishonim and ignore it, until an adequate explain is given. In short this yerushalmi contridicts all other pisukim, and chazals, leaving me to to assume it’s not to be taken literally
DY – “That’s what everyone says when they don’t like an opinion of R’ Moshe’s.”
First of all, I don’t need to Pasken like R’ Moshe, there are others that argue. Also, how come you have a prob with me, but Not with the post(s) of that the Achronim aren’t too literal, but were done to appease the censor?!?
R’ Aharon Kotler
died in 1962 I strongly doubt he ever paskend that you can vote for a pro homosexual candidate
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky told someone that it’s better to vote for an antisemite than to vote for a pro homosexual candidate
R’ Moshe Feinstein wrote that all Jews should go down to city hall and fight the Koch gay rights bill so it will be known to all the nations that the people of god hate abomination!
edited
Health, it’s one thing to hold like others, it’s another to disparage those who hold like R’ Moshe (and other gedolim) as you have.
Acharonim sensor – what shaychus?
In todays climate going down to city hall and protest an abomination not only will not get you what you want, It will backfire and you will be called a hateful bigot and when you want something from city hall you will unlikley be able to get it.
Dont forget who the previous city council speaker was, The city council speaker is the second most powerful person in NYC and calling her an abonimation is not very smart
ZD:
Sometimes you have to do what’s smart.
When it comes to taking a stand for Hashems Torah sometimes you have to do what’s not “smart”, even to the point of giving up your life.
It takes cheshbon and guidance from the Gedolim
There is a difference between protesting ,saying nothing or supporting something
Sometimes silence is golden. You do not have to give up your life for something someone else does.
DY – “Health, it’s one thing to hold like others, it’s another to disparage those who hold like R’ Moshe (and other gedolim) as you have.”
You’re Not R’ Moshe’s spokesman! All I said was this: “I really don’t think R’ Moshe ztl would hold nowadays you could support Toaivah candidates, because of all the things they will be implementing in the future”!
Some people can never admit they’re Wrong! It’s Not just you, a lot of Frum people justify themselves by saying the Gedolim did or would hold like them.
Well it would seem that Reb Moshe zt”l disagreed with ZD.
Rav Moshe is not here today and we dont know what he would say if both candidates support or if only one supports, but that is the one who is going to win and supporting the one against , will also lose the election and cost the frum community
Health, that is not the only thing you, and others, have said about this topic.
Divrei, that is not how we pasken regarding women. Here is the language of Rambam (Hilchot Issurei Biah 14,10):
?????????? – ???? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ???????? ????? ???????? ?????????, ?????? ?????????????? ??????????? ???????? ???????????? (?,?), ????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ?????.
Even for Jews there is a machloket as to the nature of the prohibiition. We pasken that it is a lav but there is no obligatory punishment by a bet din (as it is not explicit in the Tora). Here is the language of the Shulchan Aruch (Even HaEzer 20:2).
???? ???????? (????? ??????? ?????????) ?? ??? ????, ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ????, ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??, ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????
Apparently according to Rambam (Hilchot Issurei Biah 20:8) the lashes are rabbinic:
???? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????. ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????[?] ???. ???? ???? ???? ?????. ??”? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????. ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???. ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????. ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????:
Actually Reb Moshe was calling for people to go and protest against a sitting popular Mayor.
Avi, the context actually implies issur, even if not “mishum ervah” literally.
DY – “Health, that is not the only thing you, and others, have said about this topic.”
The only other thing I found was this: “The Frum org. silence is Deafening!” And according to DH -“R’ Moshe Feinstein wrote that all Jews should go down to city hall and talkingt the Koch gay rights bill so it will be known to all the nations that the people of god hate abomination!”
So what are you talking about?!?
You called those who held or hold like R’ Moshe “in denial”; others have said it in stronger language.
DY, Rambam says “permitted” (regarding gentiles). The context of the issur regarding Jewish women does imply that it is improper but that might only be for a Jew, who has a higher level of responsibility.
Avi K
1. we don’t nesserely pasken like the rambam for hilchos ben noach, the Rambam doesn’t include cannibalism but many achronim say it’s asur for a ben noach, as implied by a few chazals
2. Even the Rambam would assur lesbian “marriages” this is implist in the rambam’s understanding of marriage, which is one of the reasons the rambam felt the need to include in a halacha sefer the halacha before matan Torah on marriage despite it’s apparent irrelevance today. I would use the rambams in the beginning of hilchus ishus to assur it according to the rambam
3. the chazal quoted by the rambam in isurai biah makes it very clear that lesbiainsim is wrong for goyim. somethings that are not assur to a ben noach could sometimes be worse. The Torah mocks Lot even though al pi halacha the rambam paskens he did nothing wrong. We see that God even matured an issur for kayin in order to avoid a worse action by adam. The radak writes on ohr lagoyim that it’s to get the goyim to keep the 7 mitzvos and follow a derech yashar, there is no way that one can ever say that lesbianism much less marriage is a derech yashar!
Avi K: The Malkus is only D’Rabannan because it’s technically a Lav She’Ein Bo Ma’aseh (because there’s no Maaseh Issur Mesuyam that it includes). But the Issur is still D’Oraisa.
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